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MiracleMax

MMORPG Update: Harvesting Reveal

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Maybe I'm not understanding but won't most campaigns have a max heroes allowed to enter wouldn't it be counter productive to invite 3 players controlled by 1 person I might be wrong tho

 

As far as I know, there are no "invite-only" campaigns. It may be more productive for 3 different people to join instead of me with 3 accounts, but who is going to prevent me from hogging those spaces?


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I like some of what I see, but not others. I play games to be a pure crafter. As a pure crafter in most game, much of my time is me out hunting resources and managing my incoming materials and selling outgoing product. Sometimes, it is the guild who sends me stuff where I don't make much money as a courtesy, or I use my own materials as a way to further develop my character. This system of group based harvesting puts my character development into the hands of other players primarily, with my own harvesting providing secondary development. 

 

I hear what you are saying. I've done a lot of independent crafting and harvesting in other games. The twist is that skill progression is passive / time based. We don't have to make those 10,000 widgets to get the next blacksmithing, leatherworking, skill up. There's no/few recipe drops and minimal recipes in game. Some recipes will be unlocked as your skill branch improves. The refining mechanic gives some depth to crafting but it will depend on how much there is to discover. On the surface it seems shallow but ACE is making it interesting by using the Crow>vessel scheme (where you can customize your avatar) and by using time based progression.

 

So how do you make a PvP game that's interesting for both the PvP'r and the professional artisan / harvester? Especially one that breaks from traditional character progression and systems we've grown used to.

 

I believe there will be depth but not in the way we are expecting. Yes, crafters will still be needed for that uber item but at the same time that uber item is not out of reach of the more casual crafter (if they have skilled up crafting passively). First, I would recommend an extensive refining pool and making that pool yeild variable but somewhat predictable results. It should not be completely predictable otherwise the same recipe will always give the same result. Also, refining could have failures or partial failures resulting in the loss of materials.

 

On a bigger scale, crafters should be in demand to supply enough goods to feed a guild's warmachine...fortifications, trebuchets, ballista, ammunition, facilities (merchant buildings, warehouses, stables, etc..). If asset destruction occurs frequently enough, there will be plenty of demand for crafters. It just won't be in making those player focused uber leet WarAxes of Doom.

 

I think the risk & reward for crafters is a much greater challenge for ACE than it is for harvesting. Harvesting in a PvP world is "risky business" and will be in high demand. Group harvesting adds to that dynamic through faster, better quality, and higher quantity of materials.

Edited by Cordite

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The question isn't can you gamify the harvesting process more, but should you attempt to gamify the harvesting process? Does the "combat player" enjoy the same gameplay as the "harvesting/crafter player?" This is a discussion we have had many times on the implementation path and decided not to go with a mini game.

 

The approach we took was a deep RPGesque system where stats, min maxing, preparation, calculating probabilities, exploration, and environmental risk is very important. (As you can see by the skill trees) We further added in a beneficial social element ontop of that where individuals (and presumable teams) will be rewarded for group harvesting. 

 

 

We were talking about this earlier in the Crowfall discord, and one thing mentioned in the Fly-On-The-Wall video is that the POI's are more like chests that you loot. This seems completely polar opposite to the above quote. Your skill as a gatherer is seemingly irrelevant to building city walls or structures which require massive amounts of basic resources.

 

Is that intended and final or still up for playing around? I like the idea of specialties in this game, and requiring guilds to have good amounts of training in gathering to be competitive sounds like a great way to break up everyone going hardcore combat skills (or rather it has a cost if you chose to do so...)

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We were talking about this earlier in the Crowfall discord, and one thing mentioned in the Fly-On-The-Wall video is that the POI's are more like chests that you loot. This seems completely polar opposite to the above quote. Your skill as a gatherer is seemingly irrelevant to building city walls or structures which require massive amounts of basic resources.

 

Is that intended and final or still up for playing around? I like the idea of specialties in this game, and requiring guilds to have good amounts of training in gathering to be competitive sounds like a great way to break up everyone going hardcore combat skills (or rather it has a cost if you chose to do so...)

 

It seems to me that what Blair is saying is that anyone can get the low-end mats, but only those who specialize can get the good, great, and awesome mats. 

 

If you look through the FAQ, they say that everyone has some basic recipes, so building basic walls is something anyone can do, but they'd probably fall when the big bad wolf huffs and puffs :P


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I think gamfying harvesting is overkill. The addition of intentional group harvesting (with a skill tree) already adds an extra dimension to the average mmo harvest system. On top of that, we will be in a PvP world where resources are going to be needed in large quantities as well as more desirable quality for those special items.

 

We know that a runestone is going to be necessary to harvest. We don't know much more than that...if the runestone can be upgraded, has to be repaired, can be destroyed or stolen. We know inventory will be limited and we are going to need pack animals. What else can you do to make harvesting a mini-game?

 

Besides the fact the other players are going to be out there looking to take your stuff.

 

That is as much gamifying for harvesting I'd personally want.

 

Crafting, on the other hand, will need much more development to be rewarding for a specialized/dedicated crafting experience. If there is no reason to specialize as a crafter because everyone can do it...very few will. (I.E..everyone will craft and craft simply for their immediate needs. Outside of the GL telling everyone to go fix the walls or put up a trebuchet...I don't get the impression that there will be a need for a crafter to build 10,000 items and try to hawk them on a store.) I've only seen one article though related to crafting so far, so its kinda early to pass judgement. Hell, its early to judge anything really.

Edited by Cordite

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hmmm, so I noticed something, there doesn't seem to be plants/farming/food resource types (for like alchemy and cooking)... this is coming later on right? :P

Correct.

In this video, Blair stated that metal resources were an example.

More resource types will follow that can be harvested without POI, and not necessarily using this format for their harvesting.


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Yeah, sounds like POI is just a loot box but has a crap load of low quality of stuff.

 

Edit: Maybe POI chests are the "noisy" zone events...like a mine going active in SB. Its gets dropped/spawns, goes active and everyone nearby that wants these grey/white quality mats in large quantity makes a B-line out there to grab the stuff. Mass confusion, and PvP gore ensue to everyone's delight.

Edited by Cordite

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It seems to me that what Blair is saying is that anyone can get the low-end mats, but only those who specialize can get the good, great, and awesome mats. 

 

If you look through the FAQ, they say that everyone has some basic recipes, so building basic walls is something anyone can do, but they'd probably fall when the big bad wolf huffs and puffs :P

Yep this. Plus not all resource nodes will be the same either like they said in last weeks update. Different ranks and such that require differing amounts of skills and numbers of player to harvest.

 

Also some seem to be using "POI" to mean just one type of item in the world? Pretty sure there will be different types of POIs. Resource nodes, farms, lumber mills, villages etc, to name a few.

Edited by pang

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I think the risk & reward for crafters is a much greater challenge for ACE than it is for harvesting. Harvesting in a PvP world is "risky business" and will be in high demand. Group harvesting adds to that dynamic through faster, better quality, and higher quantity of materials.

 

Sums it up quite well.

So farewell, all you solo-harvesters. You get less worse material slower at higher risk. Bäm, in ya face.

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You can play solo, but many of the game systems were designed to entice you to interact with others. It is an MMO, after all

 

Straight from the FAQ!

Edited by Count_Dirkoff

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Sums it up quite well.

So farewell, all you solo-harvesters. You get less worse material slower at higher risk. Bäm, in ya face.

 

Lets say ACE dumps the Group harvesting mechanic. Now you have to mine that rank 10 node (assuming your tools / runestone can make a dent in it) at a nice slow pace with reduced chance of a harvesting crit for that uber mat. So its going to take longer, less chance of getting that crit, and your haul is going to be even less.

 

I fail to see how it is an advantage to "not" group harvest? What harvester do you know that wants to bring home less? (Regardless of getting ganked or robbed)

 

Whats keeping harvesters from solo/group harvesting in a pvp safe EK zone?...Nothing, its their choice if they want to avoid the risk for less reward.

Edited by Cordite

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Dear Devs, please look to Firefall to avoid a catastrophic situation regarding resource types, combinations, stat grants, etc.  I would do the research and link the pertinent info, but I'm not going to.  The short version is that they tried something similar at first, then scrapped the system because it just didn't work.  I think.  Or something.  Maybe someone who can remember the Firefall crafting revision clearly, can speak up, but a red flag went off in my brain when I read this.

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I sort of feel after watching the video they are trying to force a social interaction together for the sake of...itself?

 

Like, its going to naturally occur because of how the pvp system will work. But scheduling a time for a bunch of harvesters to be on to go hit some nodes....i doubt thats alot of peoples example of fun. They are probably already in a VoiP speaking together anyway, even when not doing the same thing.

 

I mean dont get me wrong, its going to happen if thats the only way to get the best stuff, but like....its not a instance boss to triumph over, its having enough warm body to swing a weapon at a stationary target. 

 

I am REALLY looking forward to testing it though. I may be completely wrong! Like they said, there is no set recipe for fun, you try stuff and if its not fun you change it.

Edited by Vectious

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Correct.

In this video, Blair stated that metal resources were an example.

More resource types will follow that can be harvested without POI, and not necessarily using this format for their harvesting.

Absolutely, I don't see how they can explain away metal confessor books with lore :P


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Absolutely, I don't see how they can explain away metal confessor books with lore :P

 

Well, it's simple, really.  Text inscribed in metal is the only written information that cannot be changed by Ruin to manipulate the people of the world into releasing it from the Well of Ascension.

 

Oh wait, wrong lore.

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If you look at it like the Eve mining system, it makes perfect sense.  Nodes are dangerous.  Lets get everyone on it before the bad guys show up...

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Well, it's simple, really.  Text inscribed in metal is the only written information that cannot be changed by Ruin to manipulate the people of the world into releasing it from the Well of Ascension.

 

Oh wait, wrong lore.

 

+1 for Brandon Sanderson reference. 


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Dear Devs, please look to Firefall to avoid a catastrophic situation regarding resource types, combinations, stat grants, etc.  I would do the research and link the pertinent info, but I'm not going to.  The short version is that they tried something similar at first, then scrapped the system because it just didn't work.  I think.  Or something.  Maybe someone who can remember the Firefall crafting revision clearly, can speak up, but a red flag went off in my brain when I read this.

 

I'm no expert on Firefall but one of the many many problems with Firefall (apart from Mark Kern) was that the crafting system changed throughout the development phases. I don't mean just tweaked but changed dramatically which left players bewildered. So hopefully that will not happen with CF.

 

The full CF crafting system has not been revealed yet but It does seem to have many similarities with Firefall: - with resources having a quality attribute and items being crafted from components. The actual stats on the crafted item being determined by the quality of the resources used in the crafting process.

 

But I'm not sure that necessarily makes it a bad system.

 

If you know more please tell....


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That's not quite what I meant. Did you ever play SWG? 

 

There's my Wookiee Weaponsmith on the left. :)

 

We don't have a ton of information on the depth and breadth of the crafting system, but I believe they will use the alloys to effect the differentiation that I think you're asking about.  I think they're going less random and more deterministic with how your ores, pure metals, and alloys result in your final item.  Even with the information we got on alloys a year ago, you can already see a wide variety on the effects your base ores can have, and that's before you factor in the different quality levels and how they'll refine.  In either case, you're still making the best item you can with the resources available.  There's just much less variation in the stats that one piece of copper can have.

 

I've read that SWG's resource system became a massive problem in later years because the database basically had to keep track of every resource that had ever spawned because people may still possess them.  Craziness.

 

Oh, and SWG did have many types of copper. :D

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