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Fly on the Wall: Harvesting - Official discussion thread

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There's a huge pitfall here I don't hear anyone discussing. It's great that alloys give different stats, but the demand will inevitably be imbalanced between desirable stats. Everyone will care about Crit. Nobody will care about Mana Regen. There will be a huge variety of alloy bonuses and only a small handful that anyone cares about. The materials used for useless alloys will also become useless.

Well that is reminding me about the nge where each crystal in your weapons gave a special power. Every jedi hate the blue crystal (cold that interupt if I remember) because they found it useless. But my officer was using it with his pistol and it was awsome for me. The dev changed it. Since then i blame jedi for ruining my fun.

Edited by neutrinoide

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Crazy thought...Could render/draw distance reduction be a stat for more concealed harvesting? Cheap as hell way to do it.

Of course that could only work with harvesting gear... yep crazy.

Edited by Mayhem

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Love the work the team is putting into harvesting but I feel like Thomas skipped over an important point about harvesting that Ralph was trying to bring up.

 

Exploration

 

Two things make harvesting exploration fun over the long term

  1. Not having the same re spawn point that just replenishes over time
  2. Allowing only skilled prospectors to see the resources

While the one arm bandit mentality is logical for rewarding the allocation of training points.  What makes me feel like an awesome harvester is finding the spawn point that has the rare ore.  If anyone can identify that point it kind of spoils my fun because now I just need an alt to log on and go harvest with instead of having to run around with him to find the good stuff.

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You know what happens when a majority of players start to complain about an alloy being useless? They change the stat that is buffed... Oh look no more useless alloys!

 

Why does every alloy have to be clearly useful again? every metal will be useful because each metal buffs a different attribute(I'm assuming each different attribute is useful for at least one archetype) , not every variation of alloy is going to be useful and if one alloy is really useless, all they need to do is change it! 

 

One of the key features they have been stating about the crafting system they haven't revealed yet is that experimentation is going to be important, finding weird solutions to problems with seemingly useless materials is part of the fun. 

 

-edit just removed quote can't even do it right

Edited by Ramzanacci

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Don't flame me too quickly - I haven't done any reading to see what info is out there about crafting but I think we could be missing an important point about harvesting vs. crafting.

 

I immensely like the idea of Group only nodes..whether thats rank 10 or whatever. That group only node gives us a better loot table correct? If we want an even better loot table, we need someone to train their harvesting leadership skill, etc..ect..

 

In other games such as Vanguard, these raw mats were refined for higher quality. Refining could result in better quality but perhaps at the cost of quantity or a complete failure and total loss of the raw material. Vanguard's crafting system was a heavy mini-game to keep crafters occupied and invested in training their specific skills to include refining. I have no clue if CF crafting will be anything like that but I wouldn't get too wrapped around the axle on "Group" only resources nodes. What if that resource is a lvl 100 fire-breathing golemn. Its the only golemn in the game that has X loot table for X resource. No matter what, thats going to need a group right? Maybe that rank 10 node is in a location that requires a group just to get there.

 

Again, I'm shooting from the hip here because I haven't read up on CF crafting systems. Also, I'm just using that as an example because I know this isn't a PVE focused game.

 

Edit: Ok, i see that refining is a crafting skill i.e... combining various materials to produce these alloys. The bottom line is that producing alloys is a Crafting mechanic not a Harvesting mechanic.

 

The materials are raw. These must be refined. Refining is a crafting activity.

 

Group nodes are a harvesting mechanic. The benefits of which are better raw materials and an improved chance at the rare stuff.

Edited by Cordite

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It looks to me like Blair has recognized pillaging as a potential problem for the macroeconomy.

If an individual or small group finds a fat resource node in territory they cannot expect to defend, they will harvest it if they can, even if they just get poor ore from it..

When this happens enough, the epic and legendary ores become even rarer than planned.

 

If you don't like how this system requires large, coordinated groups to exploit high-quality nodes, propose an alternative that keeps CF economy working as devs intend it to work.


Honestly, you are the type of person that is much to competitive, has zero compassion for other people and think you are better than everyone else. You likely love to troll people on a day to day bases to get others angry and laugh about it. You make playing any online game unfun for everyone else.  -Kuroaka

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Random thoughts, 

 

When it is more profitable to harvest the harvesters than to harvest for yourself, expect small scale harvesting as a play style to cap out.

 

If a clever gatherer can mitigate his losses, he will accept those losses, as long as there is profit left over. An emotionally invested person cannot do this and may ragequit the game without ever looking for solutions.

 

Can Crowfall provide alternative solutions for solo harvesters and stay within it's core philosophy. Here are some of my terrible ideas.

 

  1. Crafted Pack Pig Padded Boots, make your pack pig 60% quieter,
  2. Crafted upgraded bag, one locked inventory slot per bag
  3. Skill 'Silent Harvesting', makes harvesting 30% 40% 50% 60% quieter
  4. Skill 'Hidden Node', find nodes others can't see
  5. I liked the idea of camo pack pigs too

 I'm sure ArtCraft can come up with better ideas that cost less.

 

this made me think about how I'm a bit amazed that the skill trees are so linear, there is no real choice that locks out different options, it's just a matter of what you choose first. While I understand the logic when the game starts and your role depends on choices, in the end game certain choices could mean you lose access to certain skills that might have been beneficial.

 

I know this sounds crazy complicated, but I was thinking about a skill tree where skills later on would get different % modifiers dependant on the order in which you selected skills, like let's say : I started as a crafter and never strayed from the path, so now I have a x% better chance of using less resources or applying extra stat buff on an item.

 

That would differentiate a dedicated crafter from the rest in my opinion.


Dear ace, it was wrong of me to feel scammed, as time goes by, I realize that more and more. Thank you for letting me sell my account!

-a very satisfied customer-

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Love the work the team is putting into harvesting but I feel like Thomas skipped over an important point about harvesting that Ralph was trying to bring up.

 

Exploration

 

Two things make harvesting exploration fun over the long term

  1. Not having the same re spawn point that just replenishes over time
  2. Allowing only skilled prospectors to see the resources

While the one arm bandit mentality is logical for rewarding the allocation of training points.  What makes me feel like an awesome harvester is finding the spawn point that has the rare ore.  If anyone can identify that point it kind of spoils my fun because now I just need an alt to log on and go harvest with instead of having to run around with him to find the good stuff.

 

Exploration and DISCOVERY are a big deal to me.  "The unknown" and not knowing what's around the corner is, to me, a key catalyst agent for longevity and maintaining "spice" in a game that can be plugged into almost any area.  Once stuff becomes routine that's when you start the downward spiral into stagnation.

 

I strongly agree with #1 while also recognizing exceptions will exist.  However, generally speaking, I feel doing everything we can to eliminate static, predictable, map-able resource spawn points is a good thing.  Again, common sense tells us there will be exceptions (e.g. A cave system/tunnel mine, or something like that).

 

#2 doesn't seem unreasonable.  If my Mining ability is X, but to find Y it needs to be something more, why show it to you to begin with?  Part of the DISCOVERY dynamic to me is having the requisite abilities to make the discovery.


“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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Looking forward to what should be some fairly constant PvP generated by the group gathering and caravaning of resources back to town.

 

I thunk it's going to be a lot of fun.

 

.....And what will likely mean a load of independent crafters never looking at playing CF for fear of getting ganked. ;)

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One of the key features they have been stating about the crafting system they haven't revealed yet is that experimentation is going to be important, finding weird solutions to problems with seemingly useless materials is part of the fun. 

 

Until day 3 of the live game is released and every fansite / the official forums have every recipe for every item / enchant listed for public consumption. Then experimentation is pointless and everyone just refers back to the master list.

 

Want to make experimentation actually a thing? When a new character is created, give them the same potential to create items as everyone else ... but their own unique set of recipes to make those items.

 

Player A can make a bronze sword using 3 bronze ingots and 2 iron ingots.

Player B can make that same sword using 4 bronze ingots and 1 iron ingot.

 

Not a big deal early on because of easy recipes --- but how much fun would it be later on figuring out what YOUR master recipe list looked like?

Edited by Hook_PLGC

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Until day 3 of the live game is released and every fansite / the official forums have every recipe for every item / enchant listed for public consumption. Then experimentation is pointless and everyone just refers back to the master list.

 

Want to make experimentation actually a thing? When a new character is created, give them the same potential to create items as everyone else ... but their own unique set of recipes to make those items.

 

Player A can make a bronze sword using 3 bronze ingots and 2 iron ingots.

Player B can make that same sword using 4 bronze ingots and 1 iron ingot.

 

Not a big deal early on because of easy recipes --- but how much fun would it be later on figuring out what YOUR master recipe list looked like?

 

Well an old Asheron's Call person I see. It had spells that the player had to figure out (though usually the difference was minor).

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About the crafting: I'm curious if refining is a one shot deal or if they can be refined over and over to get a different result.

 

I like how ACE is trying to bring the PVE crowd into a PvP world. I'm still digesting things, but the system looks to have the kind of depth that would draw PVE'rs. So yes, I think we will have non-alt crafters that never venture out into the shooting gallery.

 

Until day 3 of the live game is released and every fansite / the official forums have every recipe for every item / enchant listed for public consumption. Then experimentation is pointless and everyone just refers back to the master list.

Sad but true. I'd like to see it as a very deep well that takes months or longer to fully discover.

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I think motherload nodes are a good idea, but can't be the only good option. It should be the best one though (risk vs reward). IMO it would work fine if three other opinions are implemented:

 

1. Fixed mines/forests/breeding grounds: So groups can organize around it, build defenses and make it a safe place for guildmates and friends to log in and harvest without as much concern for safety. It would be better yet if you could set up some gatekeeper thralls to automaticaly allow entrance to random people (who fill the chosen criteria) for some tax. If there aren't motherloads and other worthwile forms to get people out there, this can stagnate pvp once every big group stablish their own safespots and trade routes with who control what they don't have and need.

 

2. Random/hiden nodes: As Corvax and Degan have put it - Exploration. Random spawns of good nodes to be tracked by the solo harvester should require wits, skills and equips to find, so the ones that do can expect the few select competition. A good idea would be some instanced mines/forests/breeding grounds with hiden entrances. The solo player can track and dig up the cave entrance, cloack the entrance to make it harder for others to find, harvest it himself or sell the info for big groups. The entrance should get increasingly easier to track as more people enter the instance (bigger, noisier operations are harder to hide).

 

3. EK farmimg: Really low rewards for a really low risk. It gives something for the really PVE focused player to do while there is no group ops on and he's really not in the mood for a "stressfull" activity. A break/scape from PK. He would still need "seeds" from the CWs. He should be able to earn enought to have the option to never go into a CW and buy the seeds (if he,s really pacient with the slow cash flow). This way the market will give him the ocasional push to risk some PK when the "seeds" he wants gets scarce and really expensive.

 

Just some, not so original, ideas.

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The thing that really bothers me about the whole discussion Ralph and Tom had, was the part about the active mechanics, or rather the lack of them.

While I am happy they at least had the discussion I think they came to the completely wrong conclusion.

 

The idea the people enjoy the waiting game/slot machine non existent gameplay because some people do it, doing something and enjoying it, not the same thing.

Besides how would you even know if people wouldn't enjoy having a minigame if THERE NEVER HAS BEEN ONE IN AND MMO FOR HARVESTING BEFORE!

Seriously, every MMO I've ever played (and while I can be mistaken as there are many games out there) has only ever had the waiting slot machine, press a button and wait for semi random material, rinse repeat.

 

It's like saying "people like white" when they are only ever given white as a justification to only ever give them white.  It's not safe, it's lazy.

I thought the whole damn point of this being a crowd funded project was for you to actually try push the envelope a little, not just repeat the same crap everyone else has already done ad infinitum.  Put some goddamn effort in!

 

 

If you want people to have the ability to chat while harvesting, I think you can have both that and an active component minigame to it.  I assume harvesting is where you start the process once and it keeps going until you want to stop or there are not more resources to harvest, rather then start and stop constantly like other MMOs.

 

Like a Rhythm game.  Pressing keys at the right time to improve your harvesting multiplier in addition to equipment and skill proficiency.

Starting at a base of 100%, up to 200% or more depending on skill and equipment.  The multiplier improves both quantity and quality of materials produced each cycle.  Improving your chances of getting better stuff.

 

But say you have some high end equipment and the skills for it, you could automate the process at a maximum of 150%.  But where if you actually played the minigame you would always score the highest and get more out of it.  Or even without equipment you can leave it at the base 100% by doing nothing.

So if you want to do nothing an chat, you can.  But if you want to actually actively play the damn game, then you can and you will be rewarded for doing so.

 

 

TL:DR:  Stop being so bloody lazy.  Include a minigame.

Edited by yoh

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Being taken out of the game experience to play a mini game does not interest me.  I would much rather be able to fully see my surrounds and be able to abandoned the node in case PVP breaks out.  Having a mini game take up a portion of the screen just for a "slight" advantage of better resources doesn't seem like a good concept for farming.  Also, having a rhythm mini-game will still stop players from being able to use the in-game chat since you will have to press a multitude of buttons to be able to complete the task.  I think going the normal route of pressing a key, or holding a key, and harvesting until it's completed will work perfectly fine.


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if people need to chat while crafting, they can hop on to discord just as they do while fighting *evil grin*

 

if crafting is just an afterthought slapped on to give the pvp'ers time to chat, then refund those that misunderstood this.


Dear ace, it was wrong of me to feel scammed, as time goes by, I realize that more and more. Thank you for letting me sell my account!

-a very satisfied customer-

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The mini game idea doesn't sound bad actually. 

 

Being taken out of the game experience to play a mini game does not interest me.  I would much rather be able to fully see my surrounds and be able to abandoned the node in case PVP breaks out.  Having a mini game take up a portion of the screen just for a "slight" advantage of better resources doesn't seem like a good concept for farming.  Also, having a rhythm mini-game will still stop players from being able to use the in-game chat since you will have to press a multitude of buttons to be able to complete the task.  I think going the normal route of pressing a key, or holding a key, and harvesting until it's completed will work perfectly fine.

 

Weebles' concern would be solved by simply minimizing any mini game window and sticking with any bonus percentage you get for trained skills and equipment for doing just the automated part of the harvest. This would be actually an element of imersion: the more greedy you are, more focused on the task you'll be and more vulnerable to unfortunate surprises. Who is paying attention to their surroundings isn't going to be the most efficient haverster out there... (there could even be skills to simplify the mini game and/or reduce it's window so you could progressively do both with more ease if you really want to).

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The mini game idea doesn't sound bad actually. 

 

 

Weebles' concern would be solved by simply minimizing any mini game window and sticking with any bonus percentage you get for trained skills and equipment for doing just the automated part of the harvest. This would be actually an element of imersion: the more greedy you are, more focused on the task you'll be and more vulnerable to unfortunate surprises. Who is paying attention to their surroundings isn't going to be the most efficient haverster out there... (there could even be skills to simplify the mini game and/or reduce it's window so you could progressively do both with more ease if you really want to).

It really depends on the type of minigame, and whether or not participation is mandatory or not.

Like in the Rhythm game example I gave, it can be a take it or leave it deal.  If you want to min max and get the most out of your time or simply be engaged in what you are doing then you can play the game.

If not, if you would rather be chatting, paying attention to your surroundings or just going afk, then you can choose not to do it.

 

You can easily make a minigame cater to both crowds rather then the current plan of 'do nothing' which only caters to the one.

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