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Helix

Healing Fatigue

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Q: What are your opinions on the healing and support archetypes currently in the game. There is a large consensus of people that are underwhelmed by the druid and legionnaire in this regard. What do the devs think the role of a support should be in crowfall?

 

A:they aren't traditional MMO 'firehose healers' so if that is the expectation, yes, you're going to find them disappointing. we want them to act in a support capacity, and thrive in team situations, but we don't want victory to boil down to which-team-brought-more-healers, because that is lame.

 

 

Unfortunately, this is not the reality we live in. Healing makes or breaks teams, and in CF this is no different. Because of the watered down nature of healing, more is better as shown by the fact organized groups are bringing 2-3 healers for a 6-8 man group.

 

Now I don't want to see healing or supports become irrelevant or even optional for that matter, quite the opposite. This isn't an arena game or shooter and group composition should definitely factor into whether you win or lose.

 

The hard truth is that "supporting" in this game is boring, whether it's using the life bar on the druid or playing your healbo...I mean legionnaire. I'd like to see more support options and more potent healing (but with a counter mechanic, MORE healers shouldn't be the answer).

 

Basically what I'm suggesting is this:

  • Stronger  heals that can INITIALLY save people from being trained or burst to death but get gradually weaker (down to a reasonable cap) the more that person gets healed. Basically the more you heal the target the weaker they get.

Example: You have a legionnaire with bellow, his teammate johnson is getting pumped, the legionnaire hits him with a respectable burst heal which saves him from getting blown up. Johnson now has a debuff, every proceeding heal on that target will be less potent for a certain duration. Each heal while the debuff is active will decrease the next heal potency. Eventually the debuff wears off and the "healing fatigue" drops off.

 

Imagine this scenario with the legionnaire C and you'd get a better idea of how this could keep bringing multiple healers in check. Obviously this idea would need to be tweaked, but I think it could be a good fit for CF.

 

So in conclusion:

  • Higher scaling (more potent) heals with more "oomph" that drop off. Maybe more "thought" put in to it since healing fatigue will need to be considered.
  • Stacking healers will still be an option, but it will be less overbearing since the potency of healing will drop off faster.

Also, gordon....DON'T FORGET THE DOLPHIN MOUNTS.

Edited by helix

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im repeating myself a lot

 

need more mechanics like old removed legios discplined buff. (target could not regain the healing buff from any legio for a duration)

 

but they removed it and his vaguely more interest group heal dynamic

 

tl;dr your suggest is basically healer sin debuff.

 

e.g. stack to 5 - reduce heal % each stage.

 

however rules of applying would have to be judged else will ruin say heal over times or rain lots of small values compared to big single hit heals.

 

so best way would be a debuff stack for every % of max health healed eg 1 stack per 10% or whatever

 

bonus suggestion: going with sin mirror make it so the healers can consume and remove such effects for other things to happen? or let enemy anti healers consume it for bonus damage or effects!

Edited by Tinnis

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Healing and supporting is usually a boring duty for most of the people in my opinion. I like that suggestion of enforcing a healers-in-team limit as it becomes useless when the numbers are bigger.

 

I think every hero should have self-sustainibility to some point. Whether it is equipment or anything else they need it.

 

If we get a class that is pure doctor, nobody would play it. People don't like to be considered buffer only and do only this work.

 

--- Limiting a necessity of heal as well as acess to heal will bring better experience. Druid is well-made healing class as she can use it to turn her enemies nuclear instead.

 

I agree.


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Healing and supporting is usually a boring duty for most of the people in my opinion. I like that suggestion of enforcing a healers-in-team limit as it becomes useless when the numbers are bigger.

 

I think every hero should have self-sustainibility to some point. Whether it is equipment or anything else they need it.

 

If we get a class that is pure doctor, nobody would play it. People don't like to be considered buffer only and do only this work.

 

--- Limiting a necessity of heal as well as acess to heal will bring better experience. Druid is well-made healing class as she can use it to turn her enemies nuclear instead.

 

I agree.

 

In most games I agree. I think I had the most fun monking in GW1. That was a game where healers were really the backbone of the team. Life-saving spike heals and protective spells which required you to time and use appropriately. It was stressful and fun at the same time.

Edited by helix

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Healing and supporting is usually a boring duty for most of the people in my opinion. I like that suggestion of enforcing a healers-in-team limit as it becomes useless when the numbers are bigger.

 

There a LOADS of people in every popular MMO that play support/healers. It's certainly not a boring duty if it's done correctly. I enjoy being the guy on my team that helps keep his team mates healed and 'buffed' at the expense of not doing a lot of damage.

 

I recognize that a firehose healer isn't something that the devs want to see -- but I also recognize that if you get the same effect by having 3 of the same class in your 6 player party -- then you allowed for this anyhow.

 

I like this suggestion. I think non-stop healing is lame. I like the debuff idea ... but please allow people who WANT to play a support/healer class actually have the ability to be THAT ROLE for their team.

 

#CFcombatmedics

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That's a clever concept!

 

A simple variation might be adding a hunger cost to being healed, as if being healed puts stress on the vessel. If you lose 1 hunger for every X points of healing you receive (not counting any wasted healing that would put you over your max hp), the immediate benefit of being healed comes with a growing cost. If the fight keeps going a long time, eventually the hunger penalties start piling up, allowing overall buffed healing without necessarily meaning overall buffed sustain.

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Healing makes or breaks teams, and in CF this is no different. Because of the watered down nature of healing, more is better as shown by the fact organized groups are bringing 2-3 healers for a 6-8 man group.

 

Couldn't the same be said about DPS? More is better and organized teams are bringing multiple DPS characters?

 

If you make it so healers lose effectiveness in a sustained fight, but DPS don't, then you will simply encourage people to stack lots of DPS.

 

And if support is boring now, I don't think making healers lose effectiveness during a fight will make them less boring.


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Way to early to be making sea changes in major mechanics related to class inter-dependencies when we only have half the archetypes, none of the promotion classes, and none of the disciplines.  What will be the frequency of seeing healing debuffs, hybrid classes and off-healers?  I don't know either.

 

Perhaps one of the reasons teams are perceived to be healer stacked is Knight is in a bad place and Confessor is overshadowed by the Druid.  When only a few of the classes are viable (assuming you are trying to be competitive and win the HD minigame), well then funny stuff happens.


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Give us fire-hose healers, and then give us true counters to them like Shadow Mantle, and anti-healing spell in SB.  Give us an anti-healing archetype that places a debuff on a character that "siphons" any healing pumped into that character back to the anti-healing archetype.  Then give the original healer a way to cleanse that debuff, if he notices a player not getting healed.  Where is the long silence that makes a druid useless because they can't cast any spells/skills?

 

Give us strategy along with fire-hose healing.

 

I would support the OPs suggestion though.


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Give us fire-hose healers, and then give us true counters to them like Shadow Mantle, and anti-healing spell in SB.  Give us an anti-healing archetype that places a debuff on a character that "siphons" any healing pumped into that character back to the anti-healing archetype.  Then give the original healer a way to cleanse that debuff, if he notices a player not getting healed.  Where is the long silence that makes a druid useless because they can't cast any spells/skills?

 

Give us strategy along with fire-hose healing.

 

I would support the OPs suggestion though.

 

I don't think a fire hose healer would necessary work in CF (and the fact that devs don't want it doesn't help it either), but I do want more powerful healing with thoughtful counter mechanics.The whole concept of the legionnaire doesn't make sense to me. Is he a backline healer? Is he a frontline healer? I also dislike the "spot heal" dps with a few thrown together support powers nature of the druid. I want them to make supports the primary aspect of the archetype and the dps a secondary unless they choose a dps specific promotion

 

Right now, in the case of a 6 man group, we almost have a 1:1 ratio when it comes to healers and non-healers. I usually see leggo, leggo, druid + bring 3 of whatever combo. I find that a little ridiculous. Personally I think "light healing" needs to get thrown out with damage splitting and healing should be regulated by counter mechanics (like mentioned here and else where).

Edited by helix

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If they did what they described, this wouldn't be a problem.

 

Low "In-Combat" healing, so no amount of healers would change the ineffectiveness of trying to heal during battle.

 

If they focused more on challenging forms of support, like defense and tanking, this would fix the issue. It also helps if they stop trying to attach offensive exchanges on their support classes so they can alternate roles, the healer design in Crowfall is fundamentally broken.


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If they did what they described, this wouldn't be a problem.

 

Low "In-Combat" healing, so no amount of healers would change the ineffectiveness of trying to heal during battle.

 

If they focused more on challenging forms of support, like defense and tanking, this would fix the issue. It also helps if they stop trying to attach offensive exchanges on their support classes so they can alternate roles, the healer design in Crowfall is fundamentally broken.

 

The whole getting beat up, running away and waiting to regenerate and then come back into the fight was pretty rough and not fun. I'm okay with the notion that a fight should END, but I've annihilated and been annihilated by groups within a few seconds because I had 1 druid instead of 2 legionnaires.

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There are so many games out here where classes with multi roles (tank/dps/healing trinity - which ACE has stated they want to move away from) have just the best end of the stick. Where DPS can't burn them down, simple cause their healing is packing such a large Ooomph.

 

Personally I don't think that making them more "pure" healers who fill a role, a single role, is the solution. It will only force players into a certain role, and thus following a certain skill set. Support has always also been a hard class to define, mostly cause players who choose to play a support - they aren't playing as support. You're not the main healer, nor are you the DPS. You're the guy behind the scene making the others shine. You rarely get any glory for all your guts.

 

ACE has stated that classes won't be 100% balanced, and thank god for that. Problem arise when there is too big of a gap between classses, which means why are we talking numbers? Why are we talking about how one class should be able to perform?

 

Shouldn't we focus on : Does the idea and consept of this class work? Are the abilities we are given working? Do they make for an interesting class to play?

Once that is working, THEN we can talk numbers....


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People arent going to play a gimped class strictly because its fun to play. Whatever the 'top dps' class ends up being will have a slew of people playing it.

 

I hope to see a better offering than druid for a more pure healing class/specialization.

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after playing today I just had the thought..........

 

why don't they just use the same system they have for Attack CC / CC / Movement immunity?

 

(after X seconds or value of healing within Y time = trigger an immunity debuff for 8 seconds or so like these during which time you cannot receive any healing - with a tint or FX on charater to make it obvious?)

 

edit: perhaps make it EXTERNAL healing only blocked....so knights/champ passive and healer self survival aren't too butchered or inconsistent...

Edited by Tinnis

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Interesting. No firehose healers my end up having a unforeseen meta.

 

Instead of 3 healer and 9 other it may end up being 7 hybrids and 5 others.

 

Perhaps 12 hybrids is the way to go. I mean damage wise legion and druid are pretty competitive, throw in reliable heals and how could they be beaten? And if thats the case you may have major archetype population balance issues.

 

In most games the 'healer' was basically all it was, easily killed if targeted and had no damage output so realistically you capped out on effective healing. 

 

We will have to see how this hashes out as the combat gets scaled up and/or more organized. 

 

It would be interesting if there was a new resource called "Toxicity". The more you healed the more "Toxicity" you get, and its scaled that the higher tox you have the less healing effects you receive till you get 'immune' to heals. And it drains off naturally and skill/abilities can speed this up or slow down or stop the drain of tox. Or a enemy could hit them with a ability that spikes up their tox.

 

Either way this is a major game mechanic change. 

 

 

And its all speculation, we have to wait and see what meta is formed.


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It could be a relatively low debuff which sticks around and stacks fairly high. For instance, the Healing Fatigue debuff reduces healing by 1%, and lasts 30 minutes. While it may not be a lot by itself, if a group in the vanguard of a large fight are carelessly heal-spammed, they could end up with 100% resistance to healing for 30 minutes.

 

Personally, though, I dislike the Druid mechanic of placing healing orbs on the battlefield. I'd rather Will-o-wisp, an aimed projectile heal, be her primary attack.

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