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Vectious

Additional VIP Rewards

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Even if some of the rewards are P2W, if they are kept with in the confines of the EK's then it wont be game breaking.

 

I will be creating the poll soon and a grouping of ideas!

 

If the rewards are EK only, not sure how they'd be P2W. Can someone win an EK?

 

If it is along the lines of an app to manage crafting/buying/selling/thrall control, that could be more P2Wish allowing someone to progress/prosper while out of game which has CW influence.

 

"Game breaking" is subjective as well, seen people complain that it wasn't fair that special skins were only available in the store. Some play for the vanity #1.

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Look, paying a subscription for even real PvP benefits I do not consider to be pay to win, at least not a pay to win scenario that I see as a problem. Here's why.

 

I'd prefer a pay to even play model. Like every month. For so many reasons. pay $10-$15 per month or you can't log in, like the old days. A few of the benefits in my mind:

  • Lowers the number of multi-boxed accounts (in SB life was good ... right up until it went F2P and every Tom, hooligan and Harry had 10 accounts).
  • Eliminates (most and rampant) key cloning.
  • Keeps numbers projection and calculation far more accurate.
  • Keeps elements out that I'd prefer be out (like a stiff cover charge at a night club).

If I'm ok with (and even favor) pay to even be allowed to play, why would I have an issue with a small PvP advantage (like being able to train and progress a little more easily, conveniently or rapidly) based on that same subscription (VIP) model?

 

The reason this "P2W" (fine, call it that) is fine by me as compared to your typical cash shop is that there is no scaling to it. You get what you get for your $15 per month. So long as you aren't key cloning that's all you get no matter how many accounts you choose to pay $15 a month on.

 

Compare a cash shop where you can buy an unlimited number of ____. (PvP mounts, PvP Keeps, PvP weapons, etc.) That scales very powerfully and a whale could do some real damage to the experience. I don't see that happening with a subscription that merely affects progression, time and convenience.

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The issue is that P2W is different in everyones mind.

 

Its hard to consider 15$ a month for minor advantages a pay to win compared to buying all your equipment, skill levels, etc from a store. Or even compared to some games that the only way to get the best items is to actually buy them. Thats where the original P2W concept came from.

 

But to some people they consider a penny paid for any advantage, however how small, is a pay to win. Which i think is ridiculous 


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I'd hate to see anything enter this game that people would call P2W mostly because of the negative attention that can cause a game. Personally I'll have VIP regardless of what if offers solely to support the Devs, even if it's as is, I'll be happy with it. That being said I've seen people cry P2W over the model that's already in place, but this is only because people are confused about "being able to train 3 archetype skills," at a time, even though it's actually 3 different archetype skill lines, giving someone no advantage in combat. I think they should keep it as is and maybe make it so you also receive game store currency each month so you can save up and buy something cool. e.x. In Elder Scrolls Online, you receive 1500 crowns a month for the crown store, if you have ESO Plus. As long as there's only cosmetic and convenience items in the game store, a model like that can add a lot of value to long term subscribers.

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I think ACE needs to do something to make VIP attractive.  Otherwise, except for perhaps convenience, another acct is more efficient.

 

For example if there are ques to get into campaigns, VIP cutting the line would in itself be worth it.

 

The CF community just has to be vigilant and raise hell if ACE does propose a true P2W element for VIP.

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There will never be P2W with VIP; simply because VIP can be traded in game between players.  So a player that may not have the extra RL funds, but does have lots of play time, can always go out and get x of something to trade for 1 month of VIP.  Whales will buy lots of VIP to trade with players in game.  The Whales get their resources (which are finite, lootable, have decays etc.), the player with low RL funds gets the benefit of VIP at no RL cost to themselves; the devs get more funding.  It's a win win win for everyone.


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Look, paying a subscription for even real PvP benefits I do not consider to be pay to win, at least not a pay to win scenario that I see as a problem. Here's why.

 

I'd prefer a pay to even play model. Like every month. For so many reasons. pay $10-$15 per month or you can't log in, like the old days. A few of the benefits in my mind:

  • Lowers the number of multi-boxed accounts (in SB life was good ... right up until it went F2P and every Tom, hooligan and Harry had 10 accounts).
  • Eliminates (most and rampant) key cloning.
  • Keeps numbers projection and calculation far more accurate.
  • Keeps elements out that I'd prefer be out (like a stiff cover charge at a night club).

If I'm ok with (and even favor) pay to even be allowed to play, why would I have an issue with a small PvP advantage (like being able to train and progress a little more easily, conveniently or rapidly) based on that same subscription (VIP) model?

 

The reason this "P2W" (fine, call it that) is fine by me as compared to your typical cash shop is that there is no scaling to it. You get what you get for your $15 per month. So long as you aren't key cloning that's all you get no matter how many accounts you choose to pay $15 a month on.

 

Compare a cash shop where you can buy an unlimited number of ____. (PvP mounts, PvP Keeps, PvP weapons, etc.) That scales very powerfully and a whale could do some real damage to the experience. I don't see that happening with a subscription that merely affects progression, time and convenience.

 

They could always change, but seem fairly set on B2P without "needing" to pay down the line. They drew the line, it's up to them to figure out how to sustain themselves and the game.

 

While I'm a fan of sub+cosmetic shops, don't see it happening with CF.

 

There doesn't need to be scaling to make it a clear advantage to pay a fee where it turns from a want to a need. We'll have to see how they manage VIP along with Vessels and multi-accounts to get a real idea as right now it seems like a design with decent holes.

 

The issue is that P2W is different in everyones mind.

 

Its hard to consider 15$ a month for minor advantages a pay to win compared to buying all your equipment, skill levels, etc from a store. Or even compared to some games that the only way to get the best items is to actually buy them. Thats where the original P2W concept came from.

 

But to some people they consider a penny paid for any advantage, however how small, is a pay to win. Which i think is ridiculous 

 

Pretty much, unfortunately the isn't a one size fits all. What one might find minor might be the biggest deal to another. 

 

I've seen people cry P2W over the model that's already in place, but this is only because people are confused about "being able to train 3 archetype skills," at a time, even though it's actually 3 different archetype skill lines, giving someone no advantage in combat. I think they should keep it as is and maybe make it so you also receive game store currency each month so you can save up and buy something cool. 

 

Options = Advantage.

 

Maybe not in an exact moment, but being able to swap Archetypes to benefit the individual or team is very useful. Different situations will likely play up the strengths of particular roles and having access to them will come in handy. Of course this depends on how easy/often one can swap and how it will all work out.

 

I do like the game store currency. At least those that care about the store stuff can put their VIP to use down the line on top of whatever perks. Allowing players to pick what they want to receive for their cash.

 

For example if there are ques to get into campaigns, VIP cutting the line would in itself be worth it.

 

MMOs have ques these days? Thought technology had surpassed that.

 

There will never be P2W with VIP; simply because VIP can be traded in game between players.  So a player that may not have the extra RL funds, but does have lots of play time, can always go out and get x of something to trade for 1 month of VIP.  Whales will buy lots of VIP to trade with players in game.  The Whales get their resources (which are finite, lootable, have decays etc.), the player with low RL funds gets the benefit of VIP at no RL cost to themselves; the devs get more funding.  It's a win win win for everyone.

 

What you described is basically what P2W is. Being able to pay for advantage. Regardless if things can be lost and others are doing the work to obtain XYZ first, someone else is still skipping the effort and paying cash for game power. 

 

(Just a note that I'm fine with the current model and accept it already having P2W/RMT baked in, however, I'm hoping The Dregs is actually popular and removes the possibility for most P2W interference. Beyond VIP and multi training, not much else can sneak in. If The Dregs aren't popular and most action happens in the more open CWs where importing of goods is more likely, probably see how Camelot Unchained is doing)

Edited by APE

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There will never be P2W with VIP; simply because VIP can be traded in game between players.  So a player that may not have the extra RL funds, but does have lots of play time, can always go out and get x of something to trade for 1 month of VIP.  Whales will buy lots of VIP to trade with players in game.  The Whales get their resources (which are finite, lootable, have decays etc.), the player with low RL funds gets the benefit of VIP at no RL cost to themselves; the devs get more funding.  It's a win win win for everyone.

Thats actually a very good point.


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What you described is basically what P2W is. Being able to pay for advantage. Regardless if things can be lost and others are doing the work to obtain XYZ first, someone else is still skipping the effort and paying cash for game power.

I don't consider someone going out and acquiring goods through play of the game and then trading them for VIP, P2W for the buying player.

 

Essentially P2W is seen as an unfair advantage.  In this case the unfair advantage is not the resources (because it was a player that gathered those resources) it is whatever VIP has to offer.  If VIP was limited to only players with RL cash then I would concede that VIP could be P2W; but because VIP can be traded in game, those players with less RL finances are still able to fully participate in using VIP.

 

*Edit* My full stance is I would like more upgrades through VIP, and I would love to see VIP as the alternative to a monthly sub.  I have always believed more in a monthly sub than a free to play system.

Edited by Teufel

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I have no problem with VIP giving small advantages. To me, small advantages are not "pay to win."

 

If you are going to spend serious time playing Crowfall you should be willing to contribute to keeping the service alive. If the only way ACE can convince people to pay the bills is to offer them advantages, that is far better than watching the game go out of business.

 

Playing without paying VIP should be for people who don't play a lot, don't care a lot, or people who are broke. They should feel as though they can still enjoy the game, can still contribute, and can still kill people. But it is not essential that they be on an absolutely even playing field with people who pay for the service.

 

That said, if the game devolves into "whoever pays the most will almost certainly win the campaigns" that would be a serious problem and I would probably quit.


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I have no problem with VIP giving small advantages. To me, small advantages are not "pay to win."

 

If you are going to spend serious time playing Crowfall you should be willing to contribute to keeping the service alive. If the only way ACE can convince people to pay the bills is to offer them advantages, that is far better than watching the game go out of business.

 

Playing without paying VIP should be for people who don't play a lot, don't care a lot, or people who are broke. They should feel as though they can still enjoy the game, can still contribute, and can still kill people. But it is not essential that they be on an absolutely even playing field with people who pay for the service.

 

That said, if the game devolves into "whoever pays the most will almost certainly win the campaigns" that would be a serious problem and I would probably quit.

 

Companies have to make money some how and while a few seems to do it well without crossing certain likes (POE), most tend to step over and over until it is clearly a problem.

 

What you seem to be saying is VIP is for people that are serious and those who can't/won't pay will be at a disadvantage, slight or not. Which doesn't seem implied or stated anywhere by ACE themselves.

 

I have no problem paying for VIP/sub, especially if it comes with an advantage that might impact my performance, but it should be very clear upfront before people spend money on a "Pay Once" model.

 

People shouldn't buy the game then a month down the line realize that they "need" VIP or XYZ from the store to be competitive. In a game built upon PVP, win/lose and conflict, any advantage seems likely to start to push people to the "need" view.

 

Unfortunately no model is perfect, but it would be nice if companies had it fleshed out prior to launch at least. Too many in recent years have changed it up quite a lot after launch and ran off a lot of original fans and this is even more important in crowdfunded gaming.

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You'll never get people who disagree on the definition of "pay to win" to agree on whether or not Crowfall is pay to win.

A subscription that gives progression, cosmetic and convenience benefits is only P2W (in my mind, as Jah says) to those who believe the baseline should be essentially free play every month. Thus the reason I disfavor all F2P games and even B2P games. I strongly prefer a subscription  model where everyone understands you have to pay monthly.

 

But if VIP just lets you wear a purple cape rather than yellow or some such then, ya, nobody cares about that poorly made socks.

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I have no problem with VIP giving small advantages. To me, small advantages are not "pay to win."

 

If you are going to spend serious time playing Crowfall you should be willing to contribute to keeping the service alive. If the only way ACE can convince people to pay the bills is to offer them advantages, that is far better than watching the game go out of business.

 

Playing without paying VIP should be for people who don't play a lot, don't care a lot, or people who are broke. They should feel as though they can still enjoy the game, can still contribute, and can still kill people. But it is not essential that they be on an absolutely even playing field with people who pay for the service.

 

That said, if the game devolves into "whoever pays the most will almost certainly win the campaigns" that would be a serious problem and I would probably quit.

This is the right position.

 

The devil, as always, is in the details.

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I don't consider someone going out and acquiring goods through play of the game and then trading them for VIP, P2W for the buying player.

 

Essentially P2W is seen as an unfair advantage.  In this case the unfair advantage is not the resources (because it was a player that gathered those resources) it is whatever VIP has to offer.  If VIP was limited to only players with RL cash then I would concede that VIP could be P2W; but because VIP can be traded in game, those players with less RL finances are still able to fully participate in using VIP.

 

*Edit* My full stance is I would like more upgrades through VIP, and I would love to see VIP as the alternative to a monthly sub.  I have always believed more in a monthly sub than a free to play system.

 

Say two enemy players both pay for VIP themselves, but one buys extra to trade for gold, weapons, armor, resources for crafting, however strongholds in CW will work, mounts, maybe even mercenaries to help attack the other player.

 

This seems like a clear advantage that took no in-game effort/time/skill.

 

Sure it's great for those that can't/won't pay for VIP but have time on their hands to farm XYZ to trade for it, but for those trying to play "fairly," this doesn't seem good..

 

Having to buy VIP first seems like an extra step vs buying from a 3rd party gold seller or whatever. Although VIP isn't cash so not sure what the market will look like for it.

 

Some companies have tried allowing players to earn X in game to trade directly to them for Sub/Perks, not sure if it has paid off or not. 

 

VIP might not be that great and not a highly traded commodity, but if there is a market for it, I don't see how it won't influence outcomes at least a little.

 

We'll have to see what the store ends up looking like and if VIP is even worth the hassle, but there is room for concern.

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What you seem to be saying is VIP is for people that are serious and those who can't/won't pay will be at a disadvantage, slight or not. Which doesn't seem implied or stated anywhere by ACE themselves.

 

I was describing my own view on how VIP should be seen. I was not saying that is how ACE sees it.

 

That said, it is pretty obvious to me that there will be disadvantages for those who never pay for VIP or other cash shop things.

 

The only question is how significant those disadvantages will be.

Edited by Jah

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I was describing my own view on how VIP should be seen. I was not saying that is how ACE sees it.

 

That said, it is pretty obvious to me that there will be disadvantages for those who never pay for VIP or other cash shop things.

 

The only question is how significant those disadvantages will be.

 

Which I hope isn't a question for too long.

 

Before any sort of "launch" the price model should be fleshed out and clear to those looking to pick up the game or even backers before spending anything else.

 

My issue is companies selling games as B2P/F2P without any fine print saying that cash shops or just cash can directly influence experiences. Already have VIP that can be traded for in-game whatever, mounts for sale, and VIP itself which likely will be advantageous to have. Unfortunately not everyone looks into the details and then get upset which results in bad press, people leaving, yadda yadda.

 

Games need new players joining in and these things should be clear. If non-paying customers are going to be a 2nd rate, make it clear.

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In this case the unfair advantage is not the resources (because it was a player that gathered those resources) it is whatever VIP has to offer. 

 

Real question is : how much resources would a person be able to gather before he can sell enough to purchase RL cash which usually get an inflated value, specially given that players will determine the value of cash ingame all together.

Trade vip for 1 ton of iron? You going to spend 6 hours a day running from node to node gathering iron?

Sounds like a scene from Evangelion to me :

Hold button, pinata pop, run. Hold button, pinata pop, run. Hold button, pinata pop, run.

 

The fact he lacks VIP / Multi boxing might by default (yes i say might) put him at enough of a disadvantage that he barely manages to gather enough for 1 month of vip at some point, but not enough for the extra month. If he has to play months without vip and meanwhile builds a char he likes, unless he's really determined, that VIP will most likely hold less and less value to him as the game evolves and more skills are trained.

 

The group gathering I see loosing a lot of momento to, as far as I understand now, not only the enemy can ninja loot you, your own faction can to.


Dear ace, it was wrong of me to feel scammed, as time goes by, I realize that more and more. Thank you for letting me sell my account!

-a very satisfied customer-

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I kinda know why : the fact it's not offered as a flexible service by companies like sony etc

 

You played EQ and you had to pay subscription so finance had a clear picture how much money was beng made next month. A more flexible system would easily let you "pause" the account if let's say your day job etc was to hectic and you knew you couldn't play, you'd either lose some stuff by cancelling and reactivating (which is still the case for FFXIV I think) instead of just a pauze. Some legal hogwash about offering a "service" as excuse. Heck till today contact sony support, (uch edit I mean daybreak) and ask them why you require a credit card to pay, and they'll actually send you a mail that explains it's hard coded in the system and they can't change it, which is hogwash because they offer some vouchers or something at DOUBLE the price to prolong sub for a month, so the system exists. Then we are expected not to feel offended by said practices.

 

Your article is also not a clear example, they upgrade from paying per hour to subscription, which will save money for some depending on hours played.

Still, again, it is a REQUIRED choice... why not offer both models, let the casuals pay per hour if they feel more comfortable with it, and let those that find that model to costy pay with sub, but no... systems always exchange place, just so they can squeeze that cows udder enough for that extra little drop of milk, after all you have to protect your customers, to much choice is bad for business.

 

Its that mentality that keeps breeding bad rep, or no wait, it's people like me complaining about it...

Edited by Overdhose

Dear ace, it was wrong of me to feel scammed, as time goes by, I realize that more and more. Thank you for letting me sell my account!

-a very satisfied customer-

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