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Tinnis

Suggestion to bring “combat” back to healing and prevent stacking

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Suggestion: Universal ‘Discipline’ style Buff/Debuff Healing system.

 

tl;dr make all heals basically timed coordinated lifesteal, but only for short periods followed by longer times without it.
 
I know people say to not worry about “balance” at the moment, but I’ll toss out some thoughts and ideas anyway for the future……feel free to add your own thoughts to my ramblings.
 
The issues

I’ve a history of playing healers/supports preferably of hybrid variety – but I want them to adjust the hell out of the current healing mechanics.
 
“Light in combat healing” is not a reality
 
It is currently neither what I would call “combat” healing nor is it “light”
 
Does not fit the expectation of intense fights for survival one would hope for in Crowfall’s world.
 
Fairly consistently a composition of:
 
1-2 Legio

1 Druid

1-2 Myrm

is basically unkillable in coordinated and competent hands.
 
Already all made the points about:

  • the current state of Myrm’s berserk mechanics and in general
    (especially compared to block and Knight and Champion as a whole)
  • the fragility of the Confessor versus the damage, healing and survival a Druid brings.
  • the braindead but effective Legio healing mechanics

 


Goals:

 

  • bring the “combat” back to healing
  • Make “direct” healing rare or remove it entirely.
  • reduce the effectiveness of stacking healers
  • more interesting mechanics and 'flow' for healers
  • more coordination between the healer and their allies
  • more counter play against healing
  • makes CC more relevant against healing too
  • makes infinite combat kiting and running harder

 


Current good examples

e.g. remove the: I press a button and bam instant heal or heal over time to an ally
 
Druid orbs are a example of a good approach at the moment of both coordination and possible counters.
 
As is the Ranger’s sustain power.
 
It is incredibly good at the moment – but if you are aware of Ranger mechanics as the enemy you have the capacity to counter it in a variety of ways

(CC, interrupt their dagger spin, move away from them and wait out duration etc)


Healer suggestion – universal buff/debuff system like old 'Discpline'

We need to completely tie healing to combat in the majority of cases.
 
In addition greater emphasis on preventative rather than reactionary effects would also be welcome – e.g. barrier spells or buffs that grant a short immunity etc
 
Instead revive the ideas originally implemented by the Legio’s previous “Discipline” buff.
 
You gave your allies a short duration buff.
They then had a limited time in order to attack enemies.
Their next X number of attacks before the buff ran out would provide healing and other effects
They then gained a debuff during which time they were unable to gain the heal buff again
 
A universal healing mechanic buff/debuff system should be used for all healing powers.

They should all work under the principle of you won’t get healing if you are not attacking enemies in the majority of cases, if not all.

(Could also optionally have a few powers which work to heal when you take damage only or other specific reactionary conditions e.g. when stunned, slowed etc)

Think of it like a healer’s equivalent of the confessor’s stacking ‘Sin’ but for allies.

A support class uses their healing power.

This will apply a stacking buff to allies.


The buff

The buff will be a short duration stacking effect.

The number of stacks given will be determined by the intensity of the healing power used.

There will be a maximum number of stacks you can have at once.

When you successfully attack an enemy – each hit will remove a stack of the buff and grant healing and other effects to you.

Every time a buff stack is consumed it will add the debuff stack.

(or when the duration ends with it being unused)


The debuff

The debuff will be a longer duration stacking effect.

e.g. say 3-6 second buff duration versus 30-60 second debuff duration

When a certain number of debuff stacks are reached

e.g. 10 e.g. 20 whatever

the stacking debuff will be removed and reset.

However another short debuff appears during which time you will be unable to get any new healing buff at all

e.g. so think of this like the CC immunity periods for crowd control….like 8-10 seconds immune to heal buffs [or 15-30 sec+!]


Other misc suggestions

Could also divide these buff/debuffs by Archetype class perhaps too…but probably better not to.
e.g. separate tracking for Druids or Legio.

Support archetypes could be given powers with the equivalent side effect of Confessor’s #4 Absolution – giving them a (preferably high) cooldown means to directly remove or reduce debuff stacks from their allies in emergency situations.

I’ve made other suggestions on how to also make Legio mechanics more interesting (e.g. less easy mode targeting – tie buffs or effects to trigger only after allies stamina use or after moving X distance etc)

 

Give anti healer archetypes the ability to either directly add debuff stacks to enemies or reduce or prevent them from gaining the effects of buffs for a time.


Myrm suggestion

Really need to adjust the % values that berserk heals and the crash values. And obviously the duration versus cooldown.
 
Bonus suggestion:

Make it so a Myrm only gains the FULL healing effect from berserk if they have damaged an enemy in the last X seconds e.g. 3-5 seconds whatever….(which would be easy with bleeds!) then say only a reduced amount of the healing if they haven't (90%, 75% etc)

 

Edited by Tinnis

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tl;dr support/healing isn't really the problem, just the devs interpretation of support/healing.

 

I'll start by saying that healing has almost never been an issue in any pvp game I've ever played. It's not really an issue in this one either, besides the fact that each individual healer is weak and you're forced to bring more of them. I'm not against an archetype that heals through doing damage, but I don't want to homogenize healing or support in this way. I think direct healing is fine personally and not really a problem, healing (and to be more specific; support) in general is done really poorly in this game.

The legionnaire is a frontline archetype but functions like a backline healer. Even then, he only has two heals one of which that might actually save you © and the other that will top you off but can't really out sustain a focus fire dmg train.

The Druid is a supposed to function like a backbone healer but is largely positioned to dps more than support.

 

There is a pretty severe disconnect here, especially in the case of the legionnaire which might have the worst ability kit I've ever seen on a character in any game.

 

I'd rather have long sustained fights which require coordination and effort to out pressure the other team's supports, than the near mindless slaughter we have right now. I largely want to see stronger individual healer archetypes, but a greater fall off when it comes to stacking them. So maybe 2 might be fairly effective, but bringing in that 3 healing archetype in your group or stacking your group with healing disciplines and you'll start to see tremendous fall off.

 

There is a reason why the myrmidon is considered fun, and it's largely due to the fact that they can heal himself and fight longer and harder than any archetype currently in the game without having to run away like a gripe. I'd honestly be okay if they kept berserk the way it is now (maybe with a slight change in cool down) and just introduced more anti-healing mechanics, maybe disease catapults which spread aoe healing debuffs, or arcane healing "dead zones". There is a lot of options that devs can pursue if they want to keep healing in check, but unfortunately the whole "We gotta give them 6 buttons to start with" is an obstacle when it comes to creativity and availability. 

 

"Light" healing is a really dumb concept for a large scale siege based pvp game(especially when fights end in a matter of seconds). Jtodd recently said that he thinks having victory be determined on how many healers you bring is lame, but I'd be will to wager that forcing people to run away and regen x minutes next to a camp fire, or being forced to stack a multitude of healing archetypes because they individually suck is even lamer. You can even apply this logic to other things, like stacking your team with tanks or dps and abusing the poorly made socks out of physic impulses; also lame? I'd think so.

 

At the end of the day, they just need to figure out WTF to do with support archetypes. It would have been easier for them to simply say NO HEALING at all, but that would have made fights incredibly shorter and (IMO) lamer.

Edited by helix

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<snip>

 

We have some shared goals:

 

more tactics to healing as a group resource

 

(which my suggestion addressed - up your group how many healers they bring and how fast you burn through your available healing stacks within a time period - then dealing with the vulnerable period)

 

and more flow to being a healer other than 'spam on cooldown at any target all the time'

 

Your argument about stacking physics impulses is already discouraged by the CC diminishing returns and immunity system - which this is basically mirroring at an indivudal and group level for healing.

 

more active tactics against enemy healing in terms of timing and when to push attacks or retreat (outside of just anti healing buffs)

Edited by Tinnis

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Really need to adjust the % values that berserk heals and the crash values. And obviously the duration versus cooldown.

 

Bonus suggestion:

 

Make it so a Myrm only gains the healing effect from berserk if they have damaged an enemy in the last X seconds e.g. 3-5 seconds whatever….(which would be easy with bleeds!)

I really disagree with this bit in particular.  Two groups see each other from 40 yards away.  Myrm hits beserker, ranged focus him down before he hits anyone.  Without beserker healing, Myrm simply isn't a tank.   The whole point of Myrm is that he's a squishy tank with excellent healing if used well.

 

Frankly, Myrms aren't that difficult to kill.  Suppress, knock up, and 25% downtime for beserker make it pretty easy to kill most myrmidons.  Extremely good players like Uya are ridiculously hard to kill, but that's player skill, and we should be celebrating archetypes that reward player skill, not nerfing them.

 

I like healing at current levels.  If you don't have good players, there's not enough healing to do well.   If you do have good players, healing from 2 support chars is just strong enough to keep the group (of 5 or 6) up against most attackers in an even fight.  Most, not all.  And fights aren't necessarily even, but since we're talking balancing heals, we can make the assumption of an even fight.

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I really disagree with this bit in particular.  Two groups see each other from 40 yards away.  Myrm hits beserker, ranged focus him down before he hits anyone.  Without beserker healing, Myrm simply isn't a tank.   The whole point of Myrm is that he's a squishy tank with excellent healing if used well.

 

Yup - sorry I didn't mean like 0% healing. I'm not being too specific with values as just throwing ideas around...

 

I meant a scaled % of the usual healing (90%, 75%, 50% whatever)

 

Frankly the 100% healing with chance of 100% crash is nuts. Bring those numbers down to 90% all the time to at least pretend to mirror the knight....

Edited by Tinnis

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I really disagree with this bit in particular.  Two groups see each other from 40 yards away.  Myrm hits beserker, ranged focus him down before he hits anyone.  Without beserker healing, Myrm simply isn't a tank.   The whole point of Myrm is that he's a squishy tank with excellent healing if used well.

 

Frankly, Myrms aren't that difficult to kill.  Suppress, knock up, and 25% downtime for beserker make it pretty easy to kill most myrmidons.  Extremely good players like Uya are ridiculously hard to kill, but that's player skill, and we should be celebrating archetypes that reward player skill, not nerfing them.

 

I like healing at current levels.  If you don't have good players, there's not enough healing to do well.   If you do have good players, healing from 2 support chars is just strong enough to keep the group (of 5 or 6) up against most attackers in an even fight.  Most, not all.  And fights aren't necessarily even, but since we're talking balancing heals, we can make the assumption of an even fight.

 

 

Well the sort of issue is this:

 

If Myrms near immunity is not toned down, his damage has to be. Survivability, is traditionally a trade off of damage. His near immunity is not impacted by items at all so he can go full on damage with no defenses and still be just as survivable. Well thats not 100% true, it obviously would increase his 25% downtime window but overall a small impact.This creates a entirely one dimensional archetype, who cares about non-damage focus sub-classes? 

 

The cooldown should not count when he is in berserk. Increasing his vulnerability window would push the need for defense items to live through that window.

 

Another alternative is to have plenty of healing debuffs in game that effect his berserk heal. If he only can heal for 50% of the damage, problem basically solved.

 

Its probably going to be the latter, otherwise ACE would of addressed people saying berserk is too wrong. They plan on putting in alot of the healing debuffs just havent gotten around too it so the meta just feels broken.

 

Im sure the same thing will happen once the duelist is in testing with out the detect/track mechanic to counter stealth. :)


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Shadowmantle: solved.

 

we've got a 5k heal debuff on confessor's meteor. and 25% heal reduce on champion left click

 

it isn't enough, especially for the fragile confessor and champ - (champ barely spends time using his 3 part left click anyway!)

 

not even tested if they work with berserk - he doesn't see healing numbers - i don't know if it would.

 

ANY MYRMS GOT FOOTAGE OF BEING METEORED IN BERSERK? :)

Edited by Tinnis

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for the hell of it i looked at the Legio's skills when they were first released.

 

we've gone so backwards....the spirit for combat healing was much better even in greybox world...

 

No passive combat mode rage regen

 

#4 combo did a small heal when damaging enemies

 

uCtR6Fl.png

 

rallying cry had a component where part of the heal would only trigger if hit during the effect

 

OaG4LGT.png

 

and the aforementioned Discpline buff for allies to attack during for health restore

 

ScOJ7cQ.png

Edited by Tinnis

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To be honest, I felt like the "small heal when damaging enemies" was pretty brainless. I could just play like a DPS, add myself to the melee ball and swing away, and heals would just happen. That was the "easiest" era of the Legio for me.


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To be honest, I felt like the "small heal when damaging enemies" was pretty brainless. I could just play like a DPS, add myself to the melee ball and swing away, and heals would just happen. That was the "easiest" era of the Legio for me.

 

yes the implementation wasn't perfect

 

the spirit of the designs is what I want them to revisit 

 

the legio healing is hardly much more of a mechanical challenge at the moment, you don't even need to hit anyone now basically ever.

Edited by Tinnis

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p.s. i was talking about this topic with Hyriol and he made the rather simple and elegant suggestion along the lines of tying healing effectiveness to combat mode as a frankly simpler alternative (but still would need to fix the brain dead mechanical elements in my view)
 

I'm wondering if they shouldn't make more use of the in-combat/out-of-combat mechanic regards to healing.  For the most part, in-combat should be a relatively minor sustain to keep the group going, with rare burst healing for those oh-poorly made socks moments.  Anything stronger than that should be a tactical move that you use out-of-combat on people that have successfully disengaged to the back lines of the battle.

 
e.g. just do something like heals only work at 50% effectiveness if a player is in combat mode......let people decide the risk vs reward and coordinating with your allies and counterplay....

Edited by Tinnis

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p.s. i was talking about this topic with Hyriol and he made the rather simple and elegant suggestion along the lines of tying healing effectiveness to combat mode as a frankly simpler alternative (but still would need to fix the brain dead mechanical elements in my view)

 

 

e.g. just do something like heals only work at 50% effectiveness if a player is in combat mode......let people decide the risk vs reward and coordinating with your allies and counterplay....

 

I like Hyriol's suggestion from a "realism" standpoint, but I'm not sure a majority of players would find that gameplay fun.  I would like it because it would create a sort of "front" for the fighting, with healers remaining out-of-combat behind the front to administer aid to people returning back from the front, before heading back to the front.  IMO it would be an opportunity to introduce an archetype (or discipline) centered around this type of gameplay.  I'm just not sure enough players would find it fun to have to be out-of-combat to be a truly effective healer.


"Food for the crows..."    Nobuo Xa'el

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I like Hyriol's suggestion from a "realism" standpoint, but I'm not sure a majority of players would find that gameplay fun.  I would like it because it would create a sort of "front" for the fighting, with healers remaining out-of-combat behind the front to administer aid to people returning back from the front, before heading back to the front.  IMO it would be an opportunity to introduce an archetype (or discipline) centered around this type of gameplay.  I'm just not sure enough players would find it fun to have to be out-of-combat to be a truly effective healer.

 

i meant - the target receiving a heal - if THEY are in combat mode, it is reduced.

 

not whether the person casting the heal is in combat or not

 

(would also help prevent excessive self only healing survival too tho!)

I thought the way the Disciple of Khaine healed via combat in the Warhammer MMO was a fun and innovative approach. 

 

just looked through all the support section of warhammer wiki....so many support options ( vs our 2 ¬_¬ ) and all sound pretty interesting mechanically and yes all tied to combat geewizz!

Edited by Tinnis

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“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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I like Hyriol's suggestion from a "realism" standpoint, but I'm not sure a majority of players would find that gameplay fun. I would like it because it would create a sort of "front" for the fighting, with healers remaining out-of-combat behind the front to administer aid to people returning back from the front, before heading back to the front. IMO it would be an opportunity to introduce an archetype (or discipline) centered around this type of gameplay. I'm just not sure enough players would find it fun to have to be out-of-combat to be a truly effective healer.

I agree. Waiting around out of combat or having to disengage every few seconds because you got a little focused to get the full benefit of healing sounds boring, not fun, and extremely counter-intuitive if your playing "brawler" archetypes like the champion or tanks (both of which really need a healer behind them). If healing is a problem (and I don't think it is) there are a lot of other ways to put in check. In fact, this would just make dogpiling on a target even more effective since the potency of heals would be reduced.

Edited by helix

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