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First Look: Crafting Stations - Official discussion thread

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I.... honestly don't give a flying crap what the crafting stations look like.  They could be an empty box for all I care.

What I care about is mechanics, of having a principle form of engagement for non combat systems.  And if harvesting is anything to go by, it doesn't look like we are going to get it.

 

Because Koster and Blair want to be 'safe'.

Well let me bottom line it for you, if this game doesn't have some form of non combat gaming that has actually engagement and enjoyment behind it, then I have no intention of playing your game nor giving you any more of my money.

 

I've got combat games, games out the yazoo.  And combat, no matter how good, pvp or otherwise, always gets old.  And for me that happens sooner rather then later.  If there isn't something, ANYTHING else to do in the game that is actually engaging, then why would I bother with a game that is essentially the same as all the others?

People need down time within your game, and if you don't offer it, then often times they will just go somewhere else, and not come back.

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I.... honestly don't give a flying crap what the crafting stations look like.  They could be an empty box for all I care.

What I care about is mechanics, of having a principle form of engagement for non combat systems.  And if harvesting is anything to go by, it doesn't look like we are going to get it.

 

Because Koster and Blair want to be 'safe'.

Well let me bottom line it for you, if this game doesn't have some form of non combat gaming that has actually engagement and enjoyment behind it, then I have no intention of playing your game nor giving you any more of my money.

 

I've got combat games, games out the yazoo.  And combat, no matter how good, pvp or otherwise, always gets old.  And for me that happens sooner rather then later.  If there isn't something, ANYTHING else to do in the game that is actually engaging, then why would I bother with a game that is essentially the same as all the others?

People need down time within your game, and if you don't offer it, then often times they will just go somewhere else, and not come back.

It is a fair point, I am certain there are others who are also not so combat oriented and would rather have other things to do.

 

But I don't see how any of this Craftign station reveal has told you that we will have no down time and that crafting won't be engaging. There are simply not enough details about the mechanics in this reveal to indicate one way or the other. We have some potential features for Crafting stations, including experimentation and thrall allocation for buffs. Those two features alone leave a lot open for engaging gameplay and customization, and then there is the actual crafting of goods.

 

I want details on mechanics too, I guess we will just have to wait.


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Seriously though. I has an excite. And I realize this is going to produce groans from some, and/or be misinterpreted by others, but I REALLY hope for some kind of enjoyable engagement in the crafting system, beyond just being an elaborate means to some spiffy ends. Not trying to be negative. It really already seems 173% cooler than any other MMO I've seen/played's crafting system. Minimum. 8P. I would simply hate to see it miss its own potential purely because of a "Nah, let's just board up that path and never go down it" philosophy. Because for some strange reason, no one who's actually making a game can consider any kind of actively-enjoyable element of crafting without immediately thinking of some horrible Fable-like mini-game. I think it's illegal. There are Galactic Thought Police who will imprison any developers who do so, u_u...

I'm right there with you. "Combat" used to be defined as "Select your hero. Equip your hero. Roll dice to determine the outcome.", but has since moved on. For some reason "crafting" is still defined as "Select your recipe. Select your ingredients. Roll dice to determine outcome." Why can't we move on?

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It is a fair point, I am certain there are others who are also not so combat oriented and would rather have other things to do.

 

But I don't see how any of this Craftign station reveal has told you that we will have no down time and that crafting won't be engaging.

It hasn't. The harvesting reveal is what provided such clues. Thomas Blair expressly presented his idea that anything beyond annoyingly passive-but-I-still-have-to-actively-step-through-the-passive-stuff-that-provides-negative-three-points-of-engagement harvesting is just not even worth their time or consideration. Mindlessly zerging battlements, bad. Mindlessly zerging resources, good. Don't worry... You'll still have the ultra-strategic decision of "Do I passively increase my skill A by doing nothing all week and increase my critical harvesting chance, or do I passively increase my skill B by doing nothing all week and increase the potency of my critical harvests?" So, hopefully we'll have slot-machine crafting, too. Because apparently it's prudent to design systems in your game to cater to the players who don't like those elements anyway.

 

This just in... The next melee archetype will be a social archetype, and the more people you press F to interact with, the more effective you'll be.

 

Seriously, though... Raph even expressed his concern in the Fly On the Wall video, then just gave up by the end of their meeting.

 

Also, it's not even really about downtime, necessarily. The campaign is a n engine, and just because you're not a cylinder where the explosions are occurring doesn't mean you're not a functioning part of the engine.

 

The only way they're going to get everyone to want to fill all the necessary roles for the engine to work is if all the roles are engaging and sustainable.


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Crafting is same o same  on many games.   As a crafting person on many games one thing that would be nice is the custom touch.    Its so easy for there to be 20 people crafting 1 item type.   they all go on auction and all look same and then price undercutting starts.    

 

If each crafperson could add a brand name  and also depending on there crafting skills they could add bonus stats or some extra color or sparkle or shape  to the item  to give it a little uniqueness.    

 

There could be drops from pvp that could add effects like kick blind shock or random effect.

 

Craftpersons do not all need be the same crafting the same their skills should evolve so no 2 craftpersons craft identical elite items,  the basic items can be the same between crafpersons though.

 

Shared crafting such as in a castle would be nice but come with small penalty of lesser durability chance and lesser stats. This is nice for new players learning to craft.    Crafting furniture placed inside players homes could produce higher quality gear but this craft furniture cost a premium. there may also be rents to pay.

 

As a craftsman you naturally need more storage it would be nice if the crafting tables also come with extra storage spaces in them. 

 

Instead of having to place several of the same craft table to increase quality with can cause lag in the house there might be upgrade options for the tables that allow for faster crafting speed and accuracy.

 

Crafting materials could be gathered from resources around the map like ore plants liquids   or from  mobs and siege drops.

 

Recipes might also be crafted as skill increases you have to hunt for items to add new twists to old recipes or increase the recipes strength.   this would be more addictive and challenging as players have to hunt for upgrades to there trades.  Rather than the run to vendor and buy stack of recipes.  

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It is a fair point, I am certain there are others who are also not so combat oriented and would rather have other things to do.

 

But I don't see how any of this Craftign station reveal has told you that we will have no down time and that crafting won't be engaging. There are simply not enough details about the mechanics in this reveal to indicate one way or the other. We have some potential features for Crafting stations, including experimentation and thrall allocation for buffs. Those two features alone leave a lot open for engaging gameplay and customization, and then there is the actual crafting of goods.

 

I want details on mechanics too, I guess we will just have to wait.

True enough-, but as Lephys said it was more Harvesting that tipped me off to their mindset when it comes to non combat activities.

Which is a very old timey, 20 years too old mindset where anything that isn't combat or absolutely vital isn't worth the time of day, and it looks like non combat activities are winding up exactly that.

 

Which for me begs the question, what exactly was the damn point of this game being Crowdfunded to begin with?

Because from where I as sitting this game is turning out to be the exact same kind of game I would expect from a studio under the thrall of a publisher or investors.

 

 

They made a big song and dance about how they wanted to get away from norms, to makes something new and push their genre forward in some respect and not merely repeat what has already been done before and often failed.  And that under a publisher or investors, who have very different priorities, they wouldn't be able to do that.

So I ask, what exactly IS the difference between this and what you'd expect from a game from a studio under a publisher or investors?  Because I'm not seeing it.

 

Their mindset seems to be the same kind of risk adverse cowardice I've come to expect from this industry.  Where they only 'innovate' in the pre approved areas around the edges, or the core mechanics where the general public expects change, ie like combat, or hardware, and infrastructure. But when it comes to the actual difficult stuff, the cultural furniture that everyone just seems to accept that it's always been there and never needs changing, they shy away from it like every MMO developer I've ever seen.

 

 

So color me unimpressed.  This game is turning out to be just another combat sandbox that is a mile wide and an inch thick.  That has mediocre combat, and little to nothing else in a big empty world.  I've seen this movie, I know exactly how it ends.  If their intention is to repeat the same old story and expect different results, boy are they in for a rude awakening.

 

I could be wrong and I hope I am, but the direction I see the team going is not a positive one.

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Yeah, I think you are just being overly dramatic, I mean, it's harvesting guys, how much can you really innovate on harvesting? And it was the first reveal, we don't know about the distribution of nodes and how they will be relevant to the PvP meta, still quite a few for us to learn.

 

Will just keep following the news and testing the game before I decide if it is gonna fail or not based on the Harvest reveal.

Edited by LGAllastair

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Yeah, I think you are just being overly dramatic, I mean, it's harvesting guys, how much can you really innovate on harvesting?

Ummm... An extreme amount? Have you not played any MMORPGs for the last 2 decades?

 

Will just keep following the news and testing the game before I decide if it is gonna fail or not based on the Harvest reveal.

Well, if they announce campaigns will just be something you stand around interacting with using the F key until someone wins, I guess we'd have to test it first before knowing if it would be a terrible design or not. Edited by Lephys

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Ummm... An extreme amount? Have you not played any MMORPGs for the last 2 decades?

 

Well, if they announce campaigns will just be something you stand around interacting with using the F key until someone wins, I guess we'd have to test it first before knowing if it would be a terrible design or not.

I have played them, harvesting is always basic. There are nodes, you go to them and gather, there are different materials and tiers that can be used in many different ways in crafting, and that sums up harvesting in most MMOs. Crowfall is doing a bit more than the basic with the potential ideas for group nodes and POIs spawning low quality material. Please provide a few examples of MMOs in the last 2 decades that have a gathering system that does not entail something as I described above.


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I have played them, harvesting is always basic. There are nodes, you go to them and gather, there are different materials and tiers that can be used in many different ways in crafting, and that sums up harvesting in most MMOs. Crowfall is doing a bit more than the basic with the potential ideas for group nodes and POIs spawning low quality material. Please provide a few examples of MMOs in the last 2 decades that have a gathering system that does not entail something as I described above.

That's kind of the problem, it's always basic because we never take the time to reassess out base assumptions.   We accept that it's perfectly decent gameplay, it isn't and I think you could argue that it never was.  I mean imagine if combat had be stuck at turn based for the last 20 years.  Wouldn't you at least ask why?

And again by going the route they are going it speaks to their mindset going into this, and it's the same tired old mindset I've seen a dozen times.

I've seen this movie, I know how it ends.

 

As to your question, EVE Online (group nodes, thou honestly I am not entirely clear the the hell the difference is atm) and GW2 (WvW supply = POI resource).

So I don't think these are even new ideas, just recycled.  Thou no less appreciated, it's not enough in my eyes.

 

I want this game to be more then just another vacant sandbox with mediocre combat and nothing else worth doing.

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That's kind of the problem, it's always basic because we never take the time to reassess out base assumptions.   We accept that it's perfectly decent gameplay, it isn't and I think you could argue that it never was.  I mean imagine if combat had be stuck at turn based for the last 20 years.  Wouldn't you at least ask why?

It is basic because it is kind of pointless to innovate harvesting in most games. This is not a farming game, it is a Throne War MMORPG. The goal of the game from the start was to fight for resources and territory in dying worlds that will reset after a few months. With dynamic rule sets and engaging action combat. That is the main game, not mining. Harvesting is one component of the game that plays a big part but is not intended to be a separate game mode.

 

I ask again, what else is there to be creative about harvesting resources? Give us an example of the kind of innovative harvesting system you are looking for! There is a reason why people have not changed the system too much in any MMOPRG over the years, and that is because there really isn't such a demand, or even a reason to keep fixing what isn't broken. Comparing harvesting systems with combat is just a classification fallacy, they are not on the same plane of focus, complexity or relevance, certainly not in this game.

 

And again by going the route they are going it speaks to their mindset going into this, and it's the same tired old mindset I've seen a dozen times.
I've seen this movie, I know how it ends.
 
So, because one aspect of the game is not super different from the market and they are not re-inventing the wheel with it, that means they will have this mindset in all game aspects and the game will fail. Talk about slippery slope.
 
I want this game to be more then just another vacant sandbox with mediocre combat and nothing else worth doing.

So do I, the point where we don't seem to agree is that the harvesting system indicates that. They are innovating with lots of things, campaign rule sets is one of them. They have tons of room to innovate, a few of the systems we haven't even touched yet in development: winning conditions, map mechanics, POIs t distribution and geography. Then there is siege combat and crafting, movement and caravans, the actual crafting and gear system along with decay, the Asymmetric balance of all archetypes and group fights, the building system and customization allowed within it, parcel claiming and ownership along with taxation, guild hierarchy and kneeling mechanics... the list goes on.

 

Almost none of the things mentioned above require a super different Harvesting system to work, and if done well would ensure a very fun game.

Edited by LGAllastair

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It is basic because it is kind of pointless to innovate harvesting in most games. This is not a farming game, it is a Throne War MMORPG. The goal of the game from the start was to fight for resources and territory in dying worlds that will reset after a few months. With dynamic rule sets and engaging action combat. That is the main game, not mining. Harvesting is one component of the game that plays a big part but is not intended to be a separate game mode.

 

I ask again, what else is there to be creative about harvesting resources? Give us an example of the kind of innovative harvesting system you are looking for! There is a reason why people have not changed the system too much in any MMOPRG over the years, and that is because there really isn't such a demand, or even a reason to keep fixing what isn't broken. Comparing harvesting systems with combat is just a classification fallacy, they are not on the same plane of focus, complexity or relevance, certainly not in this game.

 

 
 
So, because one aspect of the game is not super different from the market and they are not re-inventing the wheel with it, that means they will have this mindset in all game aspects and the game will fail. Talk about slippery slope.
 
 

So do I, the point where we don't seem to agree is that the harvesting system indicates that. They are innovating with lots of things, campaign rule sets is one of them. They have tons of room to innovate, a few of the systems we haven't even touched yet in development: winning conditions, map mechanics, POIs t distribution and geography. Then there is siege combat and crafting, movement and caravans, the actual crafting and gear system along with decay, the Asymmetric balance of all archetypes and group fights, the building system and customization allowed within it, parcel claiming and ownership along with taxation, guild hierarchy and kneeling mechanics... the list goes on.

 

Almost none of the things mentioned above require a super different Harvesting system to work, and if done well would ensure a very fun game.

 

No no, you wouldn't want to draw inspiration from games that are actually successful or anything.  Like Stardue Valley or Minecraft.

Because it's not just about mechanics it's about context.  Pressing a button to collect a resource is very different if it's in the context of spelunking in a dangerous cave network or mine.  If you want other examples of where resource gathering is made to be engaging and on a budget, Terraria, Starbound, Harvest Moon.

 

And funny that they call it a Thrones War MMORPG, as they don't seem to understand what Game of Thrones is even about yet they want to ride on it's coat tails.  If you'd ever actually watched the show or read the books, combat and war is actually a very small part of it.  It's usually present, in the background but it most certainly not the main feature.

People are.  Socializing, backstabbing, politics, alliances.

And while they claim there will be politics and such in the game, like everything else not combat I have yet to see any actual mechanics to suggest it'll be anything more then a guild and a chat window.  But that's besides the point, thou maybe time will tell on that front.  Doubt it.

 

 

My point is that tag line is BS, and it's really just an excuse to make yet another combat sandbox like the dozens that came before it.

This is not a fallacy, this is not a slippery slope, (you just don't understand what thous are).  This is EXPERIENCE.

This is I've seen with my own two eyes MMO games come and go trying to do the exact same thing that this game is attempting to do to little to no success.

And you expect me to believe that somehow this time it will be different, when they have mostly the same ideas, and all the same tired excuses as to why they can't have anything other the mediocre combat.

 

And make no mistake, the combat will be mediocre.  Slightly above average at best. (certainly at launch, perhaps years after the fact maybe not so much)

Why? Because they don't have the time, money or manpower to make really good combat, not when they also want a perpetually online living world as well.

(as compared to a much more contained experience like a MOBA)

 

So given this, is that all you want to have in terms of content?  I for one, there is nothing they can really ever do in terms of combat that will keep me terribly engaged for long.  I've simply done it too much.  What I want, and what a lot of players desperately want, is experiences that you really can't get anywhere else.

Like gathering and crafting in a real world economy where your decisions matter and people are relying on you, while also being enjoyable from the moment to moment gameplay.  Two things I have seen work to great success interdependently, like Chocolate and Peanutbutter.  So it baffles me that we haven't mixed them together before or why there is so much resistance to the idea.

 

 

Also most of what you list isn't even new, thou it can be considered new in this context of MMOs.  It has the potential to make the game more fun, or it can just end up as another gimmick.  The jury is out on a lot of these combat related mechanics.

 

You seem to be under the impression that this is all new never seen before, but by in large it isn't.  I've seen too many sandbox mmos try to run on the strength of their combat system alone, and rarely does it ever pan out as well the anybody expects it to.

And thous who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

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Sure bud, sorry to even argue. It seems your vast and incomparable experience in games already convinced you of what the game will be. I believe I said my piece, doesn't seem like you are interested in leveled and tempered conversations. Everyone who makes the slippery slope fallacy believes they are right because of "experience", that is the whole point of it. You've seen it happen before!!!! The signs are here!!!! It's starting! Don't you see? You're just naive and I see what is really happening!!! Right, whatever.

 

Your expectations just don't match what Crowfall is trying to become, the problem is not in the game, it is on what you are expecting it to be. They started a year ago testing combat, saying over and over "combat is the life blood" and working from that. How can you expect this game to be focused on harvesting and crafting? Harvest Moon? Are you really referencing this? Come on....

Edited by LGAllastair

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I have played them, harvesting is always basic. There are nodes, you go to them and gather, there are different materials and tiers that can be used in many different ways in crafting, and that sums up harvesting in most MMOs. Crowfall is doing a bit more than the basic with the potential ideas for group nodes and POIs spawning low quality material. Please provide a few examples of MMOs in the last 2 decades that have a gathering system that does not entail something as I described above.

You seem to have misunderstood. You asked how much room there was to innovate, and I pointed out how low the current floor was, which you then confirmed with (paraphrased) "yeah, harvesting's uber simplified in all othe MMO's in existence." Does that make sense? There wouldn't be much room to innovate only if other games had inovated too much already.

 

It is basic because it is kind of pointless to innovate harvesting in most games. This is not a farming game, it is a Throne War MMORPG. The goal of the game from the start was to fight for resources and territory in dying worlds that will reset after a few months. With dynamic rule sets and engaging action combat. That is the main game, not mining. Harvesting is one component of the game that plays a big part but is not intended to be a separate game mode.

That's mildly inaccurate. The goal from the start was for conflict to always exist. The biggest way in which Crowfall was innovating was in actually simulating a full-scale conflict, including all the different roles that fuel such a thing. Swords weren't suposed to decay so that some percentage of the player base could have the joy of standing around whacking nodes and collecting loot from them. Why would they intentionally implement item decay and a non-combat obstacle in the way of item replenishment if combat was the only goal? Why not just have NPC caravans to raid for new items? Then you've got combat to get your new items, AND combat on top of that to fight over who gets to combat the items out of thr caravans. Combat all around! Woohoo!

 

Here's the thing, Allastair... You still haven't provided any actual reason as to why it's pointless to make harvesting interesting. The simple fact remains that the only reasoning provided by anyone (including ACE) so far has been "because a certain group within the player base is cool with it." Well, a certain group would be cool with combat exactly mimicking World of Warcraft. Does that mean we should go back to auto-attacking, targeted combat and static PvE worlds? Of course not.

 

There's no point in having something be a full-time role if it doesn't have as much effort put into its design as other full-time-role systems. It's not a difficult line of reason. Are you ever going to make a harvesting/crafting system that everyone loves? Nope. One that even those who enjoy it won't get partially sick of? Nope. Yet the same is true of combat, or any system.

 

And for the record, people have presented OODLES of examples of crafting/harvesting systems that won't force you to just keep doing the same thing over and over and over. Read the Crafting & Economy subforum, if it's worth your time to argue this issue. Mass manufacturing could make lots an item without any active/ongoing input from the player... after that player has successfully achieved a crafting success from which to make a manufacturing blueprint. The "minigame" portion of the actual crafting/harvesting process needn't be anything separate from the rest of the game. Imagine your city's under siege, and items decay, so your defenders need a constant supply of weapons and equipment. How well/quickly you're ACTIVELY churning them out would matter a great deal. You would be directly working in the fight. If you just click buttons and choose "make thing," and harvesting is only affeted by group size and passive bonuses, then what good is it? "Okay guys... Let's waste a big group's time for an hour PURELY because that's the only way we can get resources."

 

Isn't that fundamental grinding? Doing something over and over for no other reason than as a means to an end? Combat is fun because it's fun to DO, not because of the kill points or loot you get. If it's not, it's a failure of a system. If no one wants to harvest (they simply want what you get from harvesting), then the system is literally designed as a fundamental grind.

 

I don't know how else to put it... There's a reason people like Mario, and it's because you have to actively overcome obstacles to get through it. If you pressed F to get through a level, how popular do you think Mario would be? Civilization... It's turn-based and highly strategic. You still have to actively adjust policies and command your troops. It's just slower than an action game. Puzzle games... You actively solve puzzles. You name a game genre, and it's got actice engagement in it. So, I don't understand the "it's not combat so it doesn't matter" sentiment.

Edited by Lephys

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Sure bud, sorry to even argue. It seems your vast and incomparable experience in games already convinced you of what the game will be. I believe I said my piece, doesn't seem like you are interested in leveled and tempered conversations. Everyone who makes the slippery slope fallacy believes they are right because of "experience", that is the whole point of it. You've seen it happen before!!!! The signs are here!!!! It's starting! Don't you see? You're just naive and I see what is really happening!!! Right, whatever.

 

Your expectations just don't match what Crowfall is trying to become, the problem is not in the game, it is on what you are expecting it to be. They started a year ago testing combat, saying over and over "combat is the life blood" and working from that. How can you expect this game to be focused on harvesting and crafting? Harvest Moon? Are you really referencing this? Come on....

Lephys more or less covered what I wanted to say, but I will say this.

It's not a slippery slope when you have a evidentiary basis. It's a logical inference.

 

If you see a house that is lit of fire and it burns to the ground, and you see that happen repeatedly, wouldn't you conclude that lighting houses on fire will (without interference) burn them to the ground?  And if you did have the experience of the past decade of sandbox MMO's trying and often failing to greater or lesser extents when trying to do the exact same thing, wouldn't you start to conclude that maybe it's a bad idea to do the same thing expecting different results?

Not having that experience would make you naive, yes.

 

I'm not saying that the entire project is up poorly made socks creek, but what I am saying is based on my experience what they are doing with harvesting is a giant red flag, and it speaks to a mindset that tends towards the generally poor results that I see from most sandbox MMOs.  Remember that the lead developers of this game are relatively old.  They may be experienced, but that's not always a good thing.

Old people tend to be stuck in their ways, and just not question why they do really stupid poorly made socks.  Which is why I am here questioning them as to why they are doing stupid poorly made socks. (thou I am hardly the only one to do so)

 

 

I'm less concerned with the 'idea' or 'promise' of the game, or the hero worship of it's developers (although Alison is a badass), and more about results.

Naturally the game is still well and truly in development and it can still go either way at this point, but little of what they have done or proposes has impressed me or stood out from the myriad of other sandbox MMOs that have come out over the past decade, with a few notable exceptions.

But they are hardly the first to have a few good ideas in what is otherwise the same product.

 

Long story short, it'll take more then a few tweaks around the edges to fix the core underlying problems with this genre.  And I'm not confident that they are doing any more then that.

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We're actually simply expressing deep-seated concerns about the approach towards harvesting/crafting development, which HAS happened yet. I can't believe people are still posting useless posts on a discussion forum purely to express their disbelief that someone could have something to contribute that they, themselves would not have said.

Edited by Lephys

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I guess I didn't see much concern about technicalities, but more of who thinks they know better. I am super excited for crafting and I will hope that they put as much time and thought into it as the other aspects. Hopefully they let us test stuff soon so we can give feedback based on the actual model they decide to use.


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