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Video - dealing with "can't touch me" powers (berserk, sustain, block)


Tinnis
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Dealing with "can't touch me" powers (berserk, sustain, block)

3JiojfS.png

  • fix the BS where myrms can use Berserk while suppressed please! i've seen this so many times...

    (also heard they can do it while knock downed and issues with #2 being correctly interupted too)
  • bonus bug at the end...of druid C just doing nothing for no reason...fun!


 

As ever shows the ignorability of Knights......just DoT them down and ignore.....nothing they can do about it...

 


 

you can legitmately interupt druid C powers despite immunity with:
 

knockbacks/ups e.g. legio wild charge, torandos, fire traps, druid death knockback etc

 

[link attacking as legio, another link attacking as druid, receiving exampels: #1 #2 ]

 

(also possible against Myrm Cs....just need to be luckier you are not knocked down upon approach

 

[link attacking as legio]

 

[link attacking as druid]

 


 

you if are lucky you can even prevent a Legio's rallying cry applying the heal with a legio wild charge.... :)
 

[link attacking]

Edited by Tinnis
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All true. Adding insult to injury is the Myrm's 45 second CD on that ultimate. 

 

Why so short? It's extremely frustrating as they use it to interrupt the (very long CD) ultimate for Druid, constantly. 2 of thema nd one of these is almost always up.

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Ya know, if the champ weren't so squishy, he'd be a worthwhile archetype to play :)  Bring back Stoneform, ACE.  As it stands, Champions don't last more than 10 seconds when our group meets a group with a champion.  They engage, they die.

 

The "ignore knights, they can't hurt you" theme has been explored in depth for weeks, ACE.  Your inability or unwillingness to address these basic flaws in archetype design is undermining our confidence in you.

 

Champs have decent dps and zero survivability.  They are unplayable because they don't live long enough to be useful.

Knights have excellent survivability and zero dps.  They are a detriment to their team because they bring nothing to the table.  They don't even leech damage from other players because they are ignored until there's no one else left.

 

Myrmidons have good survivability and good dps.   Fix their ability to berserk when they shouldn't be able to, and their ability to continue to channel pulverize when stunned or knocked down (they can't start pulverize in those conditions, but they can continue to channel it), fix the hunger immunity bug, nerf their damage by 15% (30% on the C power), and change berserker healing to 90% instead of 100% and they'll be well balanced.  Then use that as the baseline for knight survivability and damage.   

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Ya know, if the champ weren't so squishy, he'd be a worthwhile archetype to play :)  Bring back Stoneform, ACE.  As it stands, Champions don't last more than 10 seconds when our group meets a group with a champion.  They engage, they die.

 

The "ignore knights, they can't hurt you" theme has been explored in depth for weeks, ACE.  Your inability or unwillingness to address these basic flaws in archetype design is undermining our confidence in you.

 

Champs have decent dps and zero survivability.  They are unplayable because they don't live long enough to be useful.

Knights have excellent survivability and zero dps.  They are a detriment to their team because they bring nothing to the table.  They don't even leech damage from other players because they are ignored until there's no one else left.

 

Myrmidons have good survivability and good dps.   Fix their ability to berserk when they shouldn't be able to, and their ability to continue to channel pulverize when stunned or knocked down (they can't start pulverize in those conditions, but they can continue to channel it), fix the hunger immunity bug, nerf their damage by 15% (30% on the C power), and change berserker healing to 90% instead of 100% and they'll be well balanced.  Then use that as the baseline for knight survivability and damage.   

/agree on all.

 

+ Fessor ... something. Maybe add a % heal to C? Increase scoot? Give them a type of health drain on a 30 sec CD?

 

Just something to allow them to even use their sustain.

 

edit: /agree on almost all. I'm still confident in the devs. I just think they don't view balance as important at this stage (they're right, mostly).

Edited by coolwaters
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<snip>  

 

All true however I feel infinitely more useful as a Champion than a Knight....(comparatively anyway...)

 

and actually i'd somewhat argue the combo of Leap, dodge and second wind actually feels far far more useful the than Knights kit for self sustainability and survival (e.g. pursuit and resolve)

 

....at least in gameplay satisfaction/skill and your contribution to a fight (can still bleed and hurl from a distance along with superior CC to knight)

 

and as we've talked about at length on knight:

 

no group utility / buffs etc (e.g. group barriers or even worthwhile self barriers like say the plate ranger can do)

no debuffs to help your allies survive (e.g. ranger/legio's weapon break)

generally very poor long cooldown high cost slow cast combo crowd control

combined with the worst mobility in the game

 

+ Fessor ... something. Maybe add a % heal to C? Increase scoot? Give them a type of health drain on a 30 sec CD?

 

Now to be fair......there was an interesting hints on the combat discpline preview of interesting directions/improvments for confessor promotion classes...

 

[link]

 

u5t6QAg.png

 

Doomsayer:

 

Divine Restitution - "target steal healing / reverse berserk heal" ??? very interesting on what this means mechanically....

 

Sanctifer:

 

Eternal Flame - "heal over time and recover Health and cause damage on....???" not sure on full details of this....

Fervor - "reduce damage, cc immune, lowered cooldown (block)" ...give confessors block from sound of it..?

Retalite - "restores health based on the damage caused" ...yummy...

 

the whole combat preview at least demonstrates they are considering considerably more depth in interesting additional themes/powers for promotions anyway!

Edited by Tinnis
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Ya know, if the champ weren't so squishy, he'd be a worthwhile archetype to play :)  Bring back Stoneform, ACE.  As it stands, Champions don't last more than 10 seconds when our group meets a group with a champion.  They engage, they die.

 

I think this is why we all need to be very vocal against those who call for a lot of nerfs.  All that ridiculous "data" showing that Champions were the top killers, when only like 5-6 people actively played them and they all happened to be in organized groups with healers.  Champions were fine; bring back the stamina based leap, too, or lower the cooldown.  SOTM is a must.

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The issue is they dont heal 100% they seem to heal 120-130%.

 

I think it heals the damage taken before mitigation. So you net a positive gain. If it just healed the damage you take you could eventually wear a Myrm down.  

CfWBSig.png

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The issue is they dont heal 100% they seem to heal 120-130%.

 

I think it heals the damage taken before mitigation. So you net a positive gain. If it just healed the damage you take you could eventually wear a Myrm down.

 

i'd also love testing or direct confirmation from ACE whether berserk is actually considered "healing"

 

(e.g. no green numbers are visible)

 

and whether or not anti healing powers - such as Meteor's Black Mantle or the Champion's Mortal strike will effect and reduce berserk's effectiveness at all.

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I think this is why we all need to be very vocal against those who call for a lot of nerfs.  All that ridiculous "data" showing that Champions were the top killers, when only like 5-6 people actively played them and they all happened to be in organized groups with healers.  Champions were fine; bring back the stamina based leap, too, or lower the cooldown.  SOTM is a must.

 

I'm not sure if sotm is a must, but they need a defensive CD of some kind.

"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

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Doomsayer:

 

Divine Restitution - "target steal healing / reverse berserk heal" ??? very interesting on what this means mechanically....

 

 

if this works the way i think it is going to work, then there is no need to nerf berserk from its current state.  Hard counter > nerf imo.

Edited by destrin

"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

YouTube Channel

 

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The issue is they dont heal 100% they seem to heal 120-130%.

 

I think it heals the damage taken before mitigation. So you net a positive gain. If it just healed the damage you take you could eventually wear a Myrm down.  

 

i'd also love testing or direct confirmation from ACE whether berserk is actually considered "healing"

 

(e.g. no green numbers are visible)

 

and whether or not anti healing powers - such as Meteor's Black Mantle or the Champion's Mortal strike will effect and reduce berserk's effectiveness at all.

 

not sure about this in normal situations...only seen it heal up with the hunger rather than normal combat (excluding hp regen, heals)

 


 

re: heal debuffs and berserk

 

i took a look for a youtube myrm video

 

found blackfire's one Whirl the door!! 9/23 (source)

 


 

see my slowed down version with closeup on HP bars and values

https://youtu.be/qMBMNCYhmGM

 


 

He gets a champion's mortal strike debuff (-25% healing) during an entire berserk.

 

Starts at ~21k. Ends up before crashing at ~15k. Last berserk healing ticks was to 17k...so went down somewhat over time.

 

He gets an 8 second bellow heal at the start, this keeps his health roughly level - but does not increase it! When the heal wears off it goes down steadily!

 

So looks like anti healing does work fairly well versus berserk mechanically. (confessor's meteor is fixed value 5k though - won't be as good).

 

tl;dr CATCH 22:

 

need champ/confessor to counter MYRMS.........

 

but neither in a good balance state compared to say myrms/druids or ranger

 

(and suppression doesn't work vs berserk much either)

Edited by Tinnis
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I think this is why we all need to be very vocal against those who call for a lot of nerfs.

I wonder if anyone who was totally for removing the Knight's 360 degree block is for that now, as more people have realized (as I stated months ago) that it would be pointless because even if immortal Knights could be completely ignored. That was before the Myrmidon... before even the Druid if memory serves (I don't feel like searching right now :P ).

 

Your inability or unwillingness to address these basic flaws in archetype design is undermining our confidence in you.

There may very well be numerous balance changes and bug fixes included with the move to the Big World test for archetypes that've been languishing as new ones get introduced. At least there's no reason to currently believe there won't be any at all.  

Edited by mrmoneda

Hi, I'm moneda.

 

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Confessors seem to be nullified by how good Druids are. If Druids get nerfed you'll see Confessors come back more.

 

I think Champions need some sort of sustainability defensive CD. I don't think SOTM is the answer. I think a short cooldown short duration self heal based on the damage you do would do the trick (or something like that). SOTM doesn't fix the core issue of Champions not having any staying power. Sure they can go immune and everyone ignores them for a bit, then they go back to poking in and out of fights not doing a whole lot.

 

Knights need some sort of ability where they can intervene a teammate and have the damage be redirected to them for a short period of time. I think this would go a long way.

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I'm not sure if sotm is a must, but they need a defensive CD of some kind.

 

I think Champions need some sort of sustainability defensive CD. I don't think SOTM is the answer. I think a short cooldown short duration self heal based on the damage you do would do the trick

 

i never liked SOTM...

 

i do really like the hateful regenation passive that they currently have for weaving in and out

(but obviously won't help you against coordinated groups)

 

i literally only use ultimate warrior as a defensive immunity CD....who gives a crap about +10% damage and +10% damage again...

 

(while also making you bigger and unable to fit into places you normally can

e.g. those under stair passages...and making you easier to hit too!)

 

(compare those damage values to berserk damage increases

e.g. jump off a wall for instant +33% increase...up to 100% from 75k damage...maybe more possible)

or their 'taste for blood' +75% basic attack increase

or druid +30% damage buff)

Edited by Tinnis
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Confessors seem to be nullified by how good Druids are. If Druids get nerfed you'll see Confessors come back more.

 

I think Champions need some sort of sustainability defensive CD. I don't think SOTM is the answer. I think a short cooldown short duration self heal based on the damage you do would do the trick (or something like that). SOTM doesn't fix the core issue of Champions not having any staying power. Sure they can go immune and everyone ignores them for a bit, then they go back to poking in and out of fights not doing a whole lot.

 

Knights need some sort of ability where they can intervene a teammate and have the damage be redirected to them for a short period of time. I think this would go a long way.

 

I think Confessors' sustainability would increase if ACE treated them less as short-ranged castors and more as ranged melee castors. If there were able to strafe while primary attacking, they'd be in a better spot.

 

But pretty much all of the archetypes prior to the Ranger have a severe case of "first-designed-itis".

 

I agree that there's nothing "wrong" with the Knight's kit, but all the new shiny tech of the newer Archetypes outshines the old rusty tech. The knight would have a better role if he could redirect damage from allies to himself. And maybe if Block functioned more like SotM, too (i.e. Damage bonus while blocking)

 

 

/agree on all.

 

+ Fessor ... something. Maybe add a % heal to C? Increase scoot? Give them a type of health drain on a 30 sec CD?

 

Just something to allow them to even use their sustain.

 

edit: /agree on almost all. I'm still confident in the devs. I just think they don't view balance as important at this stage (they're right, mostly).

 

Technically, Confessors have 1 defensive ability in the form of Hellfire Shield, it just doesn't do much in the way of defense. In fact, all it does is deal damage to those who are attacking you. If they made it more defensive, it'd defenitely increase their sustainability (and as a side effect, it would make the Hellfire Combo more tactical)

 

I agree with Tinnis that Second Wind is good for a Champion's sustainability, all I would change is swap the 'below 50%' requirement and make it time based. I.e. If you haven't been attacked for 5 seconds, regenerate 5% of health for 10 seconds with a 30 second cooldown. If you're attacked while Second Wind is active, Second Wind stops regenerating health, but it doesn't go on cooldown.

 

 

I wonder if anyone who was totally for removing the Knight's 360 degree block is for that now, as more people have realized (as I stated months ago) that it would be pointless because even if immortal Knights could be completely ignored. That was before the Myrmidon... before even the Druid if memory serves (I don't feel like searching right now :P ).

 

IIRC, people were complaining that Block had no counterplay, and the 180o Block would add that counterplay. I, personally, am critical of having a 180o block because I believe it's easy to get behind a knight, or if you surround him, his Block becomes completely irrelevant. I'm moreso a fan of having Suppression hard-counter Block, so it doesn't make Block irrelevant.

 

 

There may very well be numerous balance changes and bug fixes included with the move to the Big World test for archetypes that've been languishing as new ones get introduced. At least there's no reason to currently believe there won't be any at all.  

 

They did ask the community for balance suggestions last month, so there may be numerous balance changes and bug fixes waiting for us to test. Come on ACE, hurry up with Persistence Testing!

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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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you can legitmately interupt druid C powers despite immunity with:

 

knockbacks/ups e.g. legio wild charge, torandos, fire traps, druid death knockback etc

 

[link attacking as legio, another link attacking as druid, receiving exampels: #1 #2 ]

 

(also possible against Myrm Cs....just need to be luckier you are not knocked down upon approach

 

[link attacking as legio]

 

[link attacking as druid]

I thought druid C power in death tray do not protect from CC

full immunity in life C power.

no?

but ye, alot of time activating C power failed and do nothing but triggered cooldown

 

also I do not like nefring. I like buff other.

nerfing class is making this class boring

Edited by makkon

crowfall pvp makkonMyrmidon statement: rangefall

Discord makkon#8550

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