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Quurk

Not sure how I feel about Crowfall

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So that is why you keep describing Crowfall as a MOBA...

 

I'm not here to argue.

 

Multiplayer Check.

Online Check.

Battle Check

Arena Check.

Strategy elements.. Check.

 

Therefore Overwatch = Crowfall amirite?

*sigh*

 

There are thousands of games today where the discussion "is a Moba / isnt a moba" can be had... Overwatch is one of them.

So Crowfall will be discussed and dissected and prodded and evaluated. Players who love mobas will evaluate it according to how closely it fits their ideal. Players who hate Mobas will evaluate it from how much more it offers versus other games.

Art+Craft can't control that discussion - they can only listen and learn and offer solution to meet the audiences they want... which hopefully is a few from both camps and everyone in between.

 

If you check the FAQ the 2 primary reasons given for Crowfall not being a MOBA are length of campaign and size of game world... but you know in the past two years the genre has changed. Massive mobas now exist and the market is way different to what it was a few years ago.

 

"Action Realtime Strategy (ARTS) " is where Moba used to be... And although arguably Crowfall s not an ARTS ....  Moba now means any game where online combat between teams happens. People need to update their thesauri and find that games like Overwatch and Crowfall fall into the genre since it got wider to accomodate many thousands of new games.

 

In the context of my above post... my point was this: For someone ONLY looking for an argument about labels its enough to say "X is a moba." Be it overwatch or Crowfall or anything on any gamelist you like.. labels are just labels.

 

The issue is more about looking for gameplay elements that are moba-like: And in the other 99% of my post it was very obvious I was speaking about character customisation, investment and longevity/persistence - with a concern that the crowfall Vessel design seems to be an attempt to facilitate character swapping like mobas, rather than to build emotional investments in characters like mmorpgs. I kinda wish people would read those parts of posts as well - you know..for context.

 

The point is.. If Crowfall doesnt make an attempt to offer more by way of character persistence than *pick your label* It will end up getting compared to *pick your label*.

 

Right now Art+Craft arent saying much, and what they have said suggests character persistence is not a thing. This is a shame and we wait anxiously for clarification.

 

Does this help?


www.CrowfallRP.com


Disclaimer: My RP with you might become a public story: https://soundcloud.com/shiv-mahon

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I'm not here to argue.

 

Multiplayer Check.

Online Check.

Battle Check

Arena Check.

Strategy elements.. Check.

 

You can put those checks down for ANY multiplayer game that is player over the internet, including chess and poker. With a broad viewpoint like that everything is a MOBA. However such classification is about as meaningful as classifying everything as "stuff".

 

You can just as well classify everything as an RPG, since in every game you are given a role, and you hardly ever get to play as yourself.

 

There are way more other distinguishing features that make comparing those games pointless, no moba has fully developed  crafting, no moba has a siege system, no moba has a game defining skill system, no moba lasts longer then a couple hours. You can think up the rest.

Edited by rajah

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So, Crowfall is a MMOBARTSRPG :P

 

Labeling aside, you can get attached to literally anything, Deloria. Hell, you could RP yourself!

 

"I've fought many battles, served many lords, attained many skills, yet I have not found the perfect one. I could never find a lord I wanted to fight for, or a land I wanted to conquer. Even these Vessels I use, I just throw them away when they've served their purpose. What's the point in this eternal life of mine?"

 

Something like that at least.

 

The lore in CF is just for a narrative backdrop, YOU make your story, YOU impact the world, YOU do what you want! Hell, YOU could make the lore yourself! That's the sandbox. I, personally, don't see the problem your having. Maybe its from your perspective. I'm excited to make the story of my Crow, not what my Crow will look like. That's where your concern is, I think, you want to get attached to your character, not the story your character will forge.

 

Just my $20.02.


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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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What i find most silly is that Massive Online Battle Arena title is more misleading then anything. The massive part alludes to tons people playing together in the same game, which they dont. Its a bunch small groups of people playing the same game in different instances. The Battle Arena makes me think more of a Colosseum type crap where people slug it out until one is standing. 

 

So since there is no clear definition of MOBA you have to look at what started the MOBA and the spiritual successors of that game. You cant take a extremely generic attribute like "you control a character" or "there is a arena" and apply that filter to games and say all games that has this is called this genre, you have to focus on the unique mechanics or a unique grouping of common mechanics to filter.

 

So what started the MOBA? A warcraft map mod, ironicly, called Dota. Which was actually based off of a different map mod called Aeon of Strife, except in AoS it was the player vs the computer while Dota it was player vs player.

 

Since then there has been league of legends, Heros of Newerth, dota 2 and  a dozen others.

 

So what exactly is the core mechanics that made these games?

 

Well first, and arguably the most important is a "draft". Meaning people select from a pool of characters, generally having completely unique abilities and/or stats. Alot of times there are different ways to execute this draft but the core principle is everyone pulls from the same pool, at the same time.

 

The second is that the character that is controlled has a progression. Based on choices made and sometimes performances made there is either a item or character progression or both. This happens at the 'arena' level. Meaning things you earn exist only in that instance of arena. Your level reset, your items are gone, the points are gone, etc. This happens quickly and there is a cap you hit in progression.

 

The third is that there is a map that in most cases have a very limited possible alternatives in layout and design. These map have a clear objective and outside of objectives, can not be manipulated by the player.  A clearly defined objective would be "hold this ground" Or "destroy this building".

 

The fourth is per 'match' there is a limited number of people, rarely exceeding 20.

 

The fifth is that there are two teams of players, and generally a winner and a loser.

 

 

The argument can be made that Crowfall can hit some of these. And it does, partially, but not enough, not anymore then most games that are not considered a MOBA.

 

There is a selection of characters that are from the same pool but its not done at the same time, which is a important aspect of a Moba. You are

 stuck with what you choose. Now some cases the character can be reselected but these are unique mechanics. Also, at the competitive level most MOBAs have restrictions that the a character cannot be played by more than one person and can have a banning phase to deny a selection completely. Hence a "draft".

 

There is a progression in resources and character development and items that does not get reset(some of the items/resources gets reset but not all). Now while its not the same as in a MMORPG like WoW, Rift, etc, where everything is persistent, there is enough persistence that makes it much closer to a WoW than a Dota.

 

Now the map part is the thing that puts it closer to a MOBA then to anything. Its created, people fight on the map then its gone and reset. The noticeable differences is that they are completely dynamic and completely manipulated by players. The objectives -may- not be clearly defined depending on the campaign. 

 

And the number of people in crowfall can be hundreds in a campaign, if not thousands. 

 

While one of the campaigns may be two sides, the majority of them are either multiple sides or even no definition of teams.

 

 

But really, all we have to base gameplay in crowfall off of is theories and a semi-outdated FAQ. Honestly, even the hungerdome/seige perilous couldn't even be considered a MOBA, by how the first MOBA was created anyway. It was too shallow even to be considered. Which makes sense, it wasent a game it was a test.


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This discussion has been going on since they revealed Crows and Vessels, but to my knowledge ACE has not really responded to backer concerns like those above (a general line or two, here and there).  If I am wrong, please point me to post or video.  

 

It would be nice to hear either: a. we hear your concerns and we have something in store for you, or b. we hear your concerns, however we regret to inform you that perhaps CF is not the game for you.

 

Crows and Vessels should have been something that was part of the discussion since Kickstarter.  ACE has given their reasons why it was not (and I will take them at their word).   However, it is such a significant change that alters the appeal of the game for many MMORPG enthusiasts.  It has sent up multiple red flags that ACE simply has not addressed.     

I will say that I am not sure what is required for people to become attached to a character/avatar/etc. in an MMORPG.  I have never become attached or identified with my avatar in an MMORPG, it was always just a tool to play the game.  So I have no idea what they could do to improve the attachment situation.  

 

Even so, assuming they can do something, addressing the concerns of attachment isn't as simple as your choices.  So, lets just ignore scrapping the entire system (because that is highly unlikely at this point).  Lets say they have some ideas to address the concerns, but those concerns are also competing with other concerns (e.g. combat, crafting, balance, etc.) and thus must be placed on some sort of priority list.  ACE is in a no-win situation if it does either of your suggestions.

 

If they say, we hear your concerns and we have some ideas, and then they can't get to them, then they just over-promised and the players are upset, and this is probably the worst-case because people will say that you mislead them and defrauded them (see No Man's Sky).  Say they try to be honest with players and say, we have some ideas, but they might not be implemented because it is lower on the priority list, then you are upsetting multiple groups of players.  You upset players who don't care about the attachment, as that means something else is pushed down the priority list, that they feel is more important.  You also upset the players that think attachment should be a much higher priority.  So whether you get to that point on the list or not you have already upset multiple groups of players, just by being honest, and you might just lose those players.  

 

Let say they chose your second option, and say well Crowfall might not be the game for you.  They would only do that if attachment wasn't a concern at all, so the fact that they have nott said it leads me to believe that it is a concern that is somewhere on their priority list.  But lets just say that it is low on the priority list and they don't think they can get there, and so they just come out and say it might not be the game for you.  If they say that and lose a big chunk of players, then even if they end up getting further down the list than they thought and implement some attachment ideas, they might have already lost a chunk of players, they wouldn't have lost otherwise.

 

It is just much too early for them to respond in the way you suggest, without obvious negative outcomes. 

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You can insist all you like - but right now archetypes are all we have. Vessels are all we have: Thats why when the devs describe things like memory wipe from campaign to campaign it is worrisome. Character uniqueness is critical. An extended relationship to your character is paramount for persistence. No MMO would dare to wipe your character in game plot every time a season ended.. But a moba does it all the time cos *who cares?* I'm not panicking yet - but I'm waiting for more info about how character development is supposed to be. Until we know more from Art+Craft that seems to be the implication though and it worries a few players.

Not sure where they ever stated a memory wipe from campaign to campaign, the only thing is the quote that crows do not remember their past lives, which I always took to mean that crows do not remember when they were actually living, so that crows are blank slates in terms of their allegiances.  This allows you, as the player, to play your crow however you would like and you could commit to a certain god or faction if you like and continue to do so every campaign if you wanted to.  

 

It doesn't make sense that a crow loses all memory from campaign to campaign, or from vessel to vessel when they remember all the training they have done, and death would be particularly problematic because not only would the crow not remember where their body was, nor remember that they could inhabit another body, but they would forget who their friends are, what guild they belong to, or even which side they are on in the campaign.  None of that makes sense, so I don't see the quote as describing what you attribute to it.

 

In regards to the general concern, What do you need for there to be the attachment you seek?

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-snip-

 

So lets just call Crowfall a Massively Multiplayer Online Battle Action Real-Time Strategy Role-Playing Game.

 

There will be at least hundreds, if not thousands, of players in a massive, seamless world. So Massive (by both accounts) and Multiplayer, check.

 

The game takes place over the internet. Online, check.

 

The game is based entirely around PvP. Battle, check.

 

Not sure how to define this. Action combat? Active play? Wikipedia defines MOBAs and ARTSs as the same thing and some guy on Reddit said that the Action is the PVP, so IDK. Crowfall has Action Comabt, can be played actively, and has PVP. Action, Check.

 

Sieges, Territory control, supply line, military commanders (guild leaders and sub-leaders). Real-Time Strategy, check.

 

Player Progression, Character Customization. Role-Playing, Check.

 

No one denies that Crowfall is a game. Game, Check.

 

I'm just pulling your leg, I really don't care if Crowfall is a MMOBARTSRPG, MMORPG, MOBA, or MMORTS. A label is just a label, it doesn't do nothing but categorize, not define. Sure, you could categorize Crowfall into a MOBA, but that doesn't define Crowfall as a MOBA.


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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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1. Moba now means any game where online combat between teams happens. People need to update their thesauri and find that games like Overwatch and Crowfall fall into the genre since it got wider to accomodate many thousands of new games.

 

2. character customisation, investment and longevity/persistence - with a concern that the crowfall Vessel design seems to be an attempt to facilitate character swapping like mobas, rather than to build emotional investments in characters like mmorpgs

 

3. If Crowfall doesnt make an attempt to offer more by way of character persistence than *pick your label* It will end up getting compared to *pick your label*.

 

4. Right now Art+Craft arent saying much, and what they have said suggests character persistence is not a thing. 

 

1. No, that is what MOBA means to you. OW and CF are not MOBAs to me. Depending on our individual opinions/requirements, they can be whatever we want. Pointless regardless. Also believe the "thousands" is a bit of a stretch.

 

2. CF will have as much customization as many Western mmorpgs. Investment and longevity are up to the players, but ACE is providing tools and a design for such things. How much one becomes immersed or emotionally invested is up to the player, not ACE as those are subjective aspects of gaming.

 

Vessel swapping is similar to MOBA mechanics, but at the same time it is a way to remove the need for alts and multiple accounts to play a variety of characters that typical MMORPGs require. Several MMORPGs today allow shared achievements, inventories, gear, quest history, etc. Swapping to an alt in a MMORPG isn't drastically different than the mechanic of swapping in a MOBA, however those characters retain XYZ compared to close to nothing in MOBAs. CF seems much closer to one than the other.

 

3. Skill training, gear, items, resources, EKs, rewards, guild/alliance/community features, seem fairly common to most persistent mmos, if not more so. I don't know of many "pick your label" games that have these things on the same level. Achievements and skins seem to be as deep as persistence gets with them and CF clearly is going much further.

 

If not having X instantly slaps a label on for you, that's on you, not ACE or anyone else. Also no harm/benefit to being compared to another product/genre. All that matters is the games entertainment quality. Being called a MOBA might come with good/bad baggage, but that is unavoidable in gaming. It is up to the individual to decide if CF is/has what they are looking for.

 

4. They've said more than enough to get a picture of what things will be like. To say persistence is not a thing is either requiring very particular items to achieve this or simply ignoring what they've said which already shows plenty of persistence.

 

If you can't accept the ghostly servant of gods floating around taking over bodies, there isn't much else ACE can probably do for you. The lore matches the design well, regardless if you like it or not. If you need one body with one race/class/skill set etc to feel bonded to pixels, then CF probably won't meet your needs.

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No one denies that Crowfall is a game. Game, Check.

 

 

Crowfall is love.

 

Crowfall is joy.

 

Crowfall is life.

 

Crowfall is sorrow.

 

Crowfall is absolute.

 

Crowfall is not a game.

Edited by Vectious

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OK I'm going to take one last crack at this.
 
A lot of people see a label and head straight for it like moths to flame. "MOBA".. But please ignore that bright light for a bit... we will come back to it but we need to do so in context.
 
This is NOT a discussion about whether CF is a MOBA: We are talking about the character persistence as it relates to player experience and loyalty - and how the vessel system is a step away from tried and tested character development systems found in RPGs and more in the direction of (for example) mobas....And how thrat can lead to a potentially detrimental player experience even as it adds gameplay aspects like agility in character options.
 

MMORPGs focus on immersive character creation and persistence as a way to pull players in and make them feel part of the world. We simply call this an RP mechanism becuase thats where it comes from: Roleplay and roleplay systems predates Digital gaming - and decent online games use those mechanisms because they are tried and tested. They worked for D&D and they worked for WoW and they would work for Crowfall. Even games that wouldnt be considered RP-oriented use those systems.. Anywhere you see a character progression device it is likely based on RP mechanisms. The Primary purpose of such a development path is to offer perisstence and build player/character loyalty - and ultimately player/game loyalty.

 
To be clear: These systems are used in sociology and criminology now.. RP systems are found in every aspect of game design. Understanding what drives a player to want to spend 10 -15-20 - 200 - 500 - 1000 - 10000 hours sitting and *pretending to be someone else* is arguably one of the main focuses of game developers this century. The games that deliver that level of coolaid are the ones that intuitively use Roleplay systems within their game designs.. and the alpha omega of RP game systems is the player character persistent experience. Just ask Blizzard.
 

SO now to Crowfall:

Originally when CF was kickstarted the character development part was described as mmorpg like, with multiple character slots, and we can assume Art+Craft were taking a traditional MMORPG approach to character development.
 
The Crow/Vessels system is a post-kickstarter development which was created to give players a flexibility in character choice - adding elements of strategy and tactics to picking the character (vessel) you are going into the campaigns with.. and allowing a certain agility in swapping vessels around / upgrading them / looting them for parts etc.
 
BUT: heres the point: This system is not the way mmorpgs do it - for good reason. Mmorpgs focus on character persistence as a way to build player loyalty. It is a tried and tested loyalty persistence mechanism that makes it more likely players will stick to a game and consequently they buy the cosmetic items, build fantasy scenarios for themseves , begin to get emotionally attached etc ...  and generally put effort into a game for the sake of spending time with their characters, as opposed to simply treating it like a light game session. *Simple character swap* *Character wipe (permadeath)* *Reuseability* mechanisms can make a game more agile... but come at the expense of the persistent player character experience that I'm describing and that is a central core tenet of most modern mmorpg games.
 
This is where the comparison to MOBAs comes in.. because what Art+Craft are doing and saying is: We adapt lore and the player customisation / experience elemnts to fit the gameplay systems. This *potentially* suggests a throwaway lore and a shallow character experience that is going to lose the Roleplayers and fail to excite players looking for that loyalty-to-character element that so many successful games have figured out. Of course we have to wait and see - noone is panicking or rage quitting. We have a lot of faith in Art+Craft to recognise the improtance of the player/character persistent experience.

 I want to convince you that this is a real thing:

I can use most successful mmos in the past decade as example of the character loyalty and persistant experience that Crowfall *was* and still should emulate: For example World of Warcraft. LOTRO, The Secret World, Tera, ESO, Guild wars, Everquest.. AoC... you name it. The Crow/Vessel system reduces the player character persistent experience to one of swappable meatsacks in a way no other game would do.. it is a very interesting game mechanic BUT is risky as it is probably a loyalty hit towards players seeking that loyalty aspect. and 'no - we arent talking 'bout just the sappy roleplayers here* They are the vast majority of players in all the other successful games that have realised that this is the best working formula for player/character bonding. If Art+Craft ignore it completely they kind of do so at their peril (Dah-Duh-DaaHH!).
 
Related to this is the idea of game lore... Blizzard dont go to all that effort to create an immersive world with tons of lore and stories and experiences just for the sake of "writing a book." or cos *elves are cool*... They do it to draw players in to the universe and make them care.. to identify with the character they play vicariously and to share their experiences. Again Art+Craft are saying "we write lore to push the gameplay.... but not clarifying on the character peristence elements that things like Lore bring to the player experience. When we *roleplayers* ask Art+Craft for more lore its because we need to anchor our characters to something more tangible in the game world than "meat sacks." And roleplayers are the canary in the birdcage for an immersive and rewarding player/character experience.
 
This is NOT me saying CF need to be WoW... This is me saying the player to character loyalty and experience mechanisms used by MMORPGs are extremely important to build player loyalty... And things like lore and character persistence are not focused on *for their own sake* as opposed to simply being there tro push game engine aspects, then the game will delver a shallow player experience. I speak as a roleplayer when I say this.. A decent RP community is a signal that a game is doing well and building the player loyalty aspect of character experience.
 
Now Several players here simply dont know or understand roleplay, and the fact that I describe roleplay elements as the "example to be used" or to be preferred has led a lot of players giving their opinion of what roleplay is or isn't... I want to address this a little:
 
 
For example, Ape: when you say stuff like:
 

From KS on, game seems entirely focused on "the battle" or the gameplay and all the features built around that. Not sitting around taking selfies and RPing in a bar. RPers have always been a minority and not sure why you think CF would be different. If you want something that only you can create (character story, immersion, pixel bonding), that's on you.

You are reinforcing my point (CF's focus on battle gameplay aspects means the persistence aspect of character experience is not focused on to the same degree) and also demonstrating that you dont understand what I mean when Im talking about RP mechanisms.
 
Roleplay is not selfies and tavern talk.. When you reduce Roleplay to that level it totally misses the point, and reduces the discussion greatly. Proper roleplay is about systems: Think D&D and the rulesets required. Campaign rulesets - DM handbook etc.. and the customisation *within a set of rules* required... Every decent RP system has a preestablished set of limits. THIS is the context in which we are discussing the character experience of mmorpgs, as opposed to the more shallow approach to be found in mobas.

 

I want to add: Decent Roleplay is some of the most advanced sociological and psychological gaming experience most human beings can encounter and there is no digital game experience in the world that comes close to offering the complexity of a properly orchestrated roleplay session between intelligent human beings. Computers arent smart enough to deal with human social interactions in a fantasy setting. Gary Gygax et al built something 40 yrs ago that even today computers are only building up to. IF you dont understand RP in THIS context..you miss the point entirely about the neccessity of systems.

People can call "hanging in a tavern" RP if they like.. but that is not the Roleplay we discuss here.

 

"I've never played a game that did something to make me be emotionally attached to my character. That is entirely on me. Buying a $30 costume doesn't magically do it and I'd bet for most it is more for vanity and looking cool then some deep immersion."

Yes this is on you and your subjective experiences (and mine) dont mean a thing in the context of "which gameplay devices are good to have to promote a player experience in a game. I can speak of emotional investments towards my characters that are greater than those i have with real life family members - but thats not the point. "Utilising well established and highly successful Roleplay systems" is the point... And roleplayers (I mean proper roleplayers - not selfietakingtaverntalkers) arguably have a better understanding of these systems than non-roleplayers. We recognise when they are there - and worry when they are not.
 
For the majority of players of online games what i describe is an essential part of gaming, even if they cant recognise it as a roleplay characteristic (and when they see the "RP" label they immediately go into the OMG RP carebears thing) - but we are talking about persistent and rewarding character development and experiences which now trancend RP. ESPECIALLY for a game that intends to keep us interested over time: An absence of player to character loyalty results in a feeling of grinding for grinding sake - no matter which aspect of gameplay we talk about (Combat for example).
 
SO here is where we stand: Right now Art+Craft's focus is all about the gameplay mechanisms.. Which is fair enough.

The roleplayers are waiting anxiously for more info about how Art+Craft are going to build the character experience. And we would like it if Art+Craft would say "We take the lore seriously and we take the character persistence aspect seriously - we don't intend to sacrifice them to the alter of gameplay mechanisms."
 
In this regard we, the roleplayers, with interest and experience in persistent character systems, are waiting to see what Art+Craft bring to the Character experience - and we're pointing out that the vessel system *in the absence of further info*  is not currently condusive to building persistent player/character loyalty. We're flagging that this mechanism is moba-like and presents challenges. There's that label finally - see?

 

We're not stamping our foot and screaming about it - just waiting hopefully for it to be addressed. 

 

I hope this helps.
 
 
 
 
 

 

Edited by Deloria

www.CrowfallRP.com


Disclaimer: My RP with you might become a public story: https://soundcloud.com/shiv-mahon

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The primary systems you described as foundations to role-playing are in Crowfall (and perhaps expanded by Crowfall), with the exception of respawn mechanics. In particular, Shadowbane offered me such wonderful experiences not because I was attached to my role as a Dwarf Prelate, but because I was committed to my friends and guild, clearly against (human) enemies and wishy-washy with others, and attached to our attempts of survival, land ownership and defense, and domination.  My avatar died many times and killed many other players, but in essence, the "lore" of the game was created by people - doing exactly what you want because as you say,

 

"there is no digital game experience in the world that comes close to offering the complexity of a properly orchestrated roleplay session between intelligent human beings. Computers aren't smart enough to deal with human social interactions in a fantasy setting."

 

My point is simply, you may be focusing too much on your desire to attach to an avatar for a long duration or through many interactions while missing what Crowfall offers that could be seriously better than many of the MMORPGs you listed; that is, the sandbox/themepark distinction: you can affect the world, your interactions actually matter in shaping the space in which you play your role, and you can choose from a variety of roles not available in those games.  The shared worlds of almost all of the games you listed would look and act the exact same way whether you played them relentlessly or never. Not the case for Crowfall.

 

tl;dr Let's say (hypothetically) vessels/crows winds up to by the nightmare you imagine, Crowfall still (hypothetically) offers game systems that allow more roleplay, in the way you describe it, than the games you compare it to. If you still hate it, then I guess it's not a good game for you...

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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Crowfall will be a Moba-like too, in different ways.

 

Crowfall in no way, shape or form could be or will be compared to a moba once the final "big world" elements are introduced and the game is launched. 

 

Crowfall will most likely be an mmorpg with luke warm character customization and mediocre progression options. I strongly dislike the bland one-dimensional nature of the skill lines, and the detached nature of the crow / progression system but the thought of calling CF anything resembling a moba hasn't ever entered my mind.

 

I fear eventually you'll end up with no differing factors between archetypes of the same type and "skill" will be the sole deciding the factor. Now that's not an entirely bad thing, but I find it boring and it's not what I play mmorpgs for. I want to BUILD my character, and crowfall doesn't really seem to be about that.

Edited by helix

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The primary systems you described as foundations to role-playing are in Crowfall (and perhaps expanded by Crowfall), with the exception of respawn mechanics. In particular, Shadowbane offered me such wonderful experiences not because I was attached to my role as a Dwarf Prelate, but because I was committed to my friends and guild, clearly against (human) enemies and wishy-washy with others, and attached to our attempts of survival, land ownership and defense, and domination.  My avatar died many times and killed many other players, but in essence, the "lore" of the game was created by people - doing exactly what you want because as you say,

 

 

My point is simply, you may be focusing too much on your desire to attach to an avatar for a long duration or through many interactions while missing what Crowfall offers that could be seriously better than many of the MMORPGs you listed; that is, the sandbox/themepark distinction: you can affect the world, your interactions actually matter in shaping the space in which you play your role, and you can choose from a variety of roles not available in those games.  The shared worlds of almost all of the games you listed would look and act the exact same way whether you played them relentlessly or never. Not the case for Crowfall.

 

tl;dr Let's say (hypothetically) vessels/crows winds up to by the nightmare you imagine, Crowfall still (hypothetically) offers game systems that allow more roleplay, in the way you describe it, than the games you compare it to. If you still hate it, then I guess it's not a good game for you...

 

No - arguably at this moment in time CF does not offer the primary systems of an RP foundation the way other games do. This is exactly my point.

 

My desire to attach to an avatar is a consequence of decent game design towards basic Human Nature. 

 

 

Our social brians want to make friends and find heros. To become familiar and then befriend.

 

This is why children invent imaginary friends. This is why teenagers put up poster so movie stars on their walls. It is why grown men buy Master Chief statues to sit next to their computers.

 

In fictional RP settings we make our own friends: we build avatars and experience things with them, rather than simply witness their exploits (like a book or movie). People can invest huge amounts of themselves in vicarious experiences.

 

But we can apply this also to a book: Think of the best book you ever read - and the fictional character you most identify with. It could be Harry Potter - It might be Gandalf. It might be Mickey Mouse.

 

Now Im going to cut short your Gandalf experience for the sake of "the book mechanics". Gandalf as he pertains to LoTR - and Im simply going to remove him, or make him unessential. His role will be taken by 12 seperate characters. he might even be chopped up and broken into parts to be reused. He's just a meat sack - as are all denizens of middle earth really.

 

It should be unsettling to most people with a relationship to LotR to consider this.. But we are being asked to accept it for the characters we ourselves will be responsible for creating in CF... and I must simply ask you to trust me when I say players will want to have far deeper bonds to characters they create, versus any npc in the game world. If you keep killing off my characters I will lose interest. I will learn not to get attached. I will give up trying to relate to them.

 

The throwaway vessel system is the antithesis of the persistent character model from RP (Which I went to great length to describe in my previous post).

 

Other games allow for character death and setbacks and penalties but character persistence remains: In Wow you will never lose your gnome. In Tera you will never lose your Elin. Characters are permanent and persistent.

 

In CF Charaters are vessels that deteriorate and can be lost. They are swappable. They are hackable. They are the sum of their bodyparts.

And we're hoping the nature of the "Crow spirit form" might offer some of the persistence now removed from vessels - But currently there is no consistent lore yet described that speaks of the Crow element as anything more than a generic Ghost form - a temporary state between bodybags.

 

On the contrary: Pann has said "RP-wise, since the Crows have no former knowledge of their previous lives, they wouldn't have a steadfast allegiance to any particular god. It's simply the flavor-of-the-moment for them. Design-wise, this presents players with options so they can band together against other factions fluidly from campaign to campaign without being locked into a specific faction forever." 

 

Todd has simply said that "The primary purpose of the gods is to create a narrative backdrop and to give us a natural team mechanism for players to fall into." 

 

Basically lore is the slave to game mechanics... Arguably the same can be said for the persistent character experience right now.

 

So there goes persistence and an important anchoring point for character immersion... And I relaise this sounds like me being a Doomsayer - I dont mean to be! I'm not saying OMG we're doomed or anything.. Just Im saying that right now we dont have enough information to be confident about some of the important stuff. I am happy to wait and see. I think Todd and the guys take the Game dev side really really seriously and must understand what they are giving up for the sake of the vessel system.

 

 

At this point, until we know more, players are unlikely to invest time or money in customisation of vessels or the creation of RP-level fictional narratives. We will see a bit of fan fiction and we will see RP-light efforts but we wont see the sort of uptake that other games see...

 

While players might be happy to buy a 2 dollar skin for their vessels the way they might buy a spaceship skin in elite dangerous very few people will spend 20 dollars on an outfit - or want to show off their cosplay. 

 

We wont see players writing their own novels... or a large RP community forming UNTIL CF offers more intuitive Character persistence and a deeper player experience.

 

 

The simple fix for this, from my perspective, is to define a default persistent crowform character template - that the crow reverts to upon death and is the "first life memory."

THIS is the persistent character form that should then be anchored to in the lore and the histories and the legends, and the first character you build in the character creation screen.

 

 

Edited by Deloria

www.CrowfallRP.com


Disclaimer: My RP with you might become a public story: https://soundcloud.com/shiv-mahon

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I don't get it why can't you attach to a persistent crow avatar instead of a persistent human avatar ?

 

A crow is only a ghost form, emblematic of your immortal soul.

If it was a good idea - we would be as happy to RP as the souls of hobbits and elves as we are to rp as hobbits and elves in Middle Earth.

Why dont people do this? Because ghost Rp is mindnumbingly boring. People dont connect or attach to spirits. They connect and attach to personas.

 

The Crow is not defined according to any system - but simply a pre-game state as a ghostly non-entity. in a RP system sense it is primarily a godmoding game mechanism absent any lore or gameplay limitations or inputs.

 

Our vessel is where the immersive experience begins within game - it is the character state or "where the excitement happens." ingame. This is the natural focus for RP.

 

Crow nature and form is not unique or individual at the player to player level except in gameplay stats (your mining level is higher than mine... so you win the spreadsheet war) - but there is no difference or unique persistent identity UNTIL we enter our vessel.

 

You cant wander round as a crow and interact with the world in any meaningful manner. So if I rp as a crow I might as well do it offline. The game offers nothing meaningful to add to my crow rp.

Every crow is the same. There is no unique characteristic in the gameworld. No sense of persistent presence. My crow is your crow is John Crow.

 

Art+Craft have said: "The lore right now is basically "When you die you are a ghost."

 

Us: "OK... cool but Thats..not enough."

 

Art+Craft: "Your ghost is in the form of a ghostly Crow!"

 

Us: "Aha! Anything else?"

 

Art+Craft: "Its there to faciliate the game mechanics so there wont be any heavy lore about the hows and whys of crowform.. also there won't be previous pre-life memories. Your level of interaction in the game world as a crow will be non-existent (you are essentially a spectator until you reanimate in a vessel)."

 

Us.. "Ah but how about anchoring to existing lore?  Deities for example (the only lore part that exist currently) - the ones who raised us. "

 

Art+Craft: No worries .. its just a faciliatation of game mechanics so theres not any real need to form lasting attachments to gods... you can swap them like you swap socks, just like your body parts."

 

 

So.. sure I *can* rp as a crow.. but until we kind of get more info on all the  background stuff... theres no point doing it in game - and to be clear I can RP as a ghost in any other game ever invented as well - but trust me its one dimensional to RP as Hermione Granger's ghost rather than as Hermione Granger:

 

its just a generic ghost form that doesnt have any lore anchoring points and would be hard to define a system around for group rp... Everyone is essentially godmoding cos *yay Im immortal ghost y'all!*

Edited by Deloria

www.CrowfallRP.com


Disclaimer: My RP with you might become a public story: https://soundcloud.com/shiv-mahon

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Don't you think that this kind of system offers you unique roleplaying challenges and opportunities. You can legitimely roleplay not one but 12 different characters.

 

You could think up a character and a story for each archetype, and swap between them as you swap vessels.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84TouqfIsiI

 

I am not suggesting that you roleplay a nutjob, you get the idea.

Edited by rajah

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Exactly what game mechanic can be added/developed to make crows/vessels into what you want? Or are you just here to troll?

 

You can repeatedly say "I am not trying to be doom and gloom," but you are and I'm not sure why. Go find another game?

 

You discarded my well-thought out, productive response to your rant with,

No - arguably at this moment in time CF does not offer the primary systems of an RP foundation the way other games do. This is exactly my point.

 

But exactly zero comments on the actual content of my post. This is such a common strategy among people who are fanatics and unwilling to have any discussion. I demonstrated that CF has primary systems of an RP foundation that other games do not. You simply "said" they do not have those systems. I even admitted the possibility you are right about crows/vessels and you still could not find value in my post.

 

Somehow, after several months, you pulled me back into a thread with you, and for that I apologize to myself and will do some introspection. I hope the devs do not take your posts seriously until you find a way to acknowledge that this game is more seriously designed as a RP game (by your definition) than themepark MMOs. Good luck; I will not be responding.

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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