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Quurk

Not sure how I feel about Crowfall

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The primary systems you described as foundations to role-playing are in Crowfall (and perhaps expanded by Crowfall), with the exception of respawn mechanics. In particular, Shadowbane offered me such wonderful experiences not because I was attached to my role as a Dwarf Prelate, but because I was committed to my friends and guild, clearly against (human) enemies and wishy-washy with others, and attached to our attempts of survival, land ownership and defense, and domination.  My avatar died many times and killed many other players, but in essence, the "lore" of the game was created by people - doing exactly what you want because as you say,

 

 

My point is simply, you may be focusing too much on your desire to attach to an avatar for a long duration or through many interactions while missing what Crowfall offers that could be seriously better than many of the MMORPGs you listed; that is, the sandbox/themepark distinction: you can affect the world, your interactions actually matter in shaping the space in which you play your role, and you can choose from a variety of roles not available in those games.  The shared worlds of almost all of the games you listed would look and act the exact same way whether you played them relentlessly or never. Not the case for Crowfall.

 

tl;dr Let's say (hypothetically) vessels/crows winds up to by the nightmare you imagine, Crowfall still (hypothetically) offers game systems that allow more roleplay, in the way you describe it, than the games you compare it to. If you still hate it, then I guess it's not a good game for you...

 

BUT... it didn't have to be either/or.  We could of had both--what Deloria and I (and others) have pointed out in addition to the sandbox elements. 


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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BUT... it didn't have to be either/or.  We could of had both--what Deloria and I (and others) have pointed out in addition to the sandbox elements. 

 

And it still doesn't have to be, since they said they'd try out new things, and not losing your body on death was discussed for outer realms.

Plus, we gain more risk/reward with vessels on the line.

 

In other words, why do you think ACE decided to try crows and vessels? 


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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(Edit Axe)

 

Roleplay is important and fun.

 

While I understand your point of view, you seem to be ignoring the game market today.

 

MMORPGs pale in comparison to lobby games (MOBA, FPS, RTS, CCG). Even games with RPG in them (ARPG) focus more on replay value with various characters and less on long term character bonding.

 

Short sessions, competition, strategy, and roller coaster victory/defeat all keep players coming back (or not leaving). Be it total, daily, or concurrent, these games appear to blow traditional mmos away in popularity.

 

I don't know all the profit stuff, but most of the popular ones seem to be doing just fine with their vanity micro-transactions on a wide variety of "characters" that have little to no persistence or player bonding. Vanity appears to come before immersion.

 

To say that CF being influenced by such games will hurt it seems to pertain mainly to folks like yourself that are craving particular features which I haven't seen ACE hype up or "sell" their product as having.

 

There's nothing wrong with what you want and I'd be on board with some sort of default crow character, but none of this is needed. CF is a game about conflict, risk vs reward, strategy, loss, and social interaction that goes beyond what a character looks like.

 

Speaking of which, from the get go, they made it fairly clear that characters wouldn't be visually high in customizing, little to no PVE or questing, and while there were "characters" they were still tied to a "Hero" design with race/class limitations and even gender for a while.

 

Worlds (Servers), gear, items, resources, etc all are supposed to come and go, adding Vessels to this isn't a huge stretch and the lore to back it up works for me. Might not be crazy fun to RP as a soul/ghost in a form or not, but that's on the players as the game is about the battle and all the systems that make it happen, not what you do after you die or just hanging out.

 

If you want to be X all the time, hang in the EK, have a bunch of X Vessels on hand, play on CW that allows for easy access to particular Vessels on death, etc. There likely is a solution that doesn't require much effort on either the player or dev part. As a whole, our "Character" is persistent but has many forms and this isn't unheard of in books/movies/shows/gaming. Just not in this exact design. Have to approach it with a more Macro vs Micro view. The Crow is more than just X but it is it as well. For someone that enjoys immersion, this seems like a pretty open system to take advantage of. Being locked down into something very specific seems to remove much from the player.

 

Even games like WoW get it. I wonder where it would be today if they hadn't added in LFG silent zombie groups, buying high lvl characters, avoiding PVE and playing the PVP lobby side, or flying through content literally or by plowing through "quests" for shiny loot. Talk about a grind for grinding sake and why each expansion is followed by a huge drop in players. If all the RP features were enough, I'd assume more would stick around between updates. We are a fickle bunch.

 

Unfortunately they have limited resources and anytime spent trying to cater to a particular crowd or even attempting to make the game as a whole more RP-friendly and hope it attracts and retains more players comes with risk and personally believe it is greater than taking focus away from the core systems that still need plenty of work.

 

Maybe they have some more lore/immersion features coming that will please you, but I hope they don't spend resources trying to be something that CF doesn't appear to be.

Edited by APE

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In this regard we, the roleplayers, with interest and experience in persistent character systems, are waiting to see what Art+Craft bring to the Character experience - and we're pointing out that the vessel system *in the absence of further info*  is not currently condusive to building persistent player/character loyalty. We're flagging that this mechanism is moba-like and presents challenges. There's that label finally - see?

 

 

Is it the fact that your body is just a meat-sack that is the issue, or that you can change meat-sacks?  I personally have never felt my avatar (in any MMORPG) was anything more than a meat-sack, since it doesn't have any past/experience/memories outside of me inhabiting it.  I guess another way to ask about it is to ask this: If your memories/experience/personality/knowledge/every piece of your mental (and spiritual) being was transferred to a body that was not your body, but looked and worked the exactly the same, would you no longer be you, would you not be able to attach to that body?  I can see where this could be an issue with transferring to a different race, as there definitely would be some dissonance going from a human body to a centaur/minotaur body.

 

I also wonder, in games in which you have alts, do you play your alt in a way the ignores all of the experiences/knowledge that was ever gained on your main?  I am guessing that would be quite difficult to do, so outside of the mechanic of logging out and back in, you are already doing something similar.  Further, nothing prevents you from buying additional accounts to make an alt so you don't have to transfer to different archetypes, in reality if you play the game for over a year, 3 accounts is better than 1 VIP account (not just cost wise, but also more general training slots, and locational flexibility).  

 

Outside of scrapping the system, which they are unlikely to do now, what things would you need to form that attachment?

 

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Exactly what game mechanic can be added/developed to make crows/vessels into what you want? Or are you just here to troll?

 

 

You can repeatedly say "I am not trying to be doom and gloom," but you are and I'm not sure why. Go find another game?

 

 

You discarded my well-thought out, productive response to your rant with,

 

But exactly zero comments on the actual content of my post. This is such a common strategy among people who are fanatics and unwilling to have any discussion. I demonstrated that CF has primary systems of an RP foundation that other games do not. You simply "said" they do not have those systems. I even admitted the possibility you are right about crows/vessels and you still could not find value in my post.

 

Somehow, after several months, you pulled me back into a thread with you, and for that I apologize to myself and will do some introspection. I hope the devs do not take your posts seriously until you find a way to acknowledge that this game is more seriously designed as a RP game (by your definition) than themepark MMOs. Good luck; I will not be responding.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

I support Crowfall and I support RP in Crowfall. I should have a pretty obvious track record for that at this stage. I hope noone doubts that.

 

*troll* doom and gloom* *rant* *fanatic*

One thing Mctan: I please want you to take for granted that Im being sincere. Do you really think Im trolling by speaking my mind on this issue? Do you think Im not being sincere and that I havent considered my words carefully enough? I always like to think that even if people percieve me as unreasonable that I'm at least trying my best to stay on the topic. I cant answer all points and might miss a few though. Its also entirely possible that I'm wrong sometimes - but Im not spamming all these words simply to troll. They are my very real thoughts on the issue.

 

 

Also - to be honest I think Im being quite elborative and concise in my arguments - I go to great lengths to explain, often giving examples. I can't help but notice that you're accusing me of ignoring your points, but generally not explaining where mine are failing? I feel my posts have already answered you - so its not that I ignore you , but rather I feel you were already answered sufficiently. If my posts ARENT answering you well enough please point to where Im failing.

 

I dont think anyone should be afraid of a well-reasoned discussion of the things they love. Just like others like to discuss combat mechanics I like to talk about RP mechanics. I dont think its doomsaying to point out percieved weaknesses and offer ways to address them? Noone would say such a thing in the discussion on FFA and friendly fire, for example.

 

 

 

So anyway: Here goes:

 

 

You say:

 

The primary systems you described as foundations to role-playing are in Crowfall (and perhaps expanded by Crowfall), with the exception of respawn mechanics.

 

To which I responded no they dont: I'm sorry if that came accross as glib - but it was an answer, and I did try to clarify what I meant: I thought I described quite well The primary mechanisms which dont exist are character persistence and gamelore driven gameplay. I will discuss them further below with examples however. "respawn mechanics" are the beginning of what I described as the persistent character experience - but I dont think you've thought about respawn as anything more than a gameplay function. I want you to consdier it as an element of the wider persistence aspect I am describing as an RP device - Please reread my previous 2 posts on this. I wil go into greater detail below as well.

 

 

you say:

 

In particular, Shadowbane offered me such wonderful experiences not because I was attached to my role as a Dwarf Prelate, but because I was committed to my friends and guild, clearly against (human) enemies and wishy-washy with others, and attached to our attempts of survival, land ownership and defense, and domination.

 

What you describe is a subjective gameplay experience: There's really nothing to answer here - You had a lot of fun doing different things and your character wasnt wiped every time it died. It didnt deteriorate: you had a single persistent character experience. Maybe when you had several different characters for several different gameplay purposes? Shadowbane sounds like it had a traditional mmorpg persistent character experience... which I spent nearly a thousand words describing in previous posts as pretty frikkin important.

 

You say:

 

My avatar died many times and killed many other players...

 

Well we need to be very clear: persistence is not about character death. Elves die in WoW. Elins die in tera.

 

Character Persistence is about character permanence. Imagine after 3 deaths I took away your character - or set the game to hardcore mode so you lost it after every attempt.. OR maybe how about I let you play and develop that character over many months and then one day take it away from you. As I described to some extent, mechanisms like permadeath and deterioration and chacter swap are the antithesis of the character persistence mechanism that is common to most major MMOs - and I described in extreme detail why such a mechanism was important.

 

Character persistence is pretty straightforward: You create a character and play with it. No matter what happens in the game world you will always return to that character. The Game experience is based around that character, and that character will follow a development path: it will learn skills, grow, evolve, suffer setbacks.

 

Players become intimately familiar with that character, and since they defined it at the outset, have a sense of loyalty to it. Even its inherent flaws and weaknesses become part of that intimate familiarization. Im essentially describing a bond at the human socioconscious level: As creatures of empathy we are perfectly capble of transmitting and transferring very real emotional value into digital relationships.

 

Obviously there is a sliding scale: Many players simply won't think they care. For example - Ape and a few others describe gameplay expereinces where this aspect of empathy didnt really seem to count. Perfectly valid!. Some will see thier characters as a kind of digital pet at best. A large subset of players are simply there for gaming enjoyment. Arguably the prime audience for Mobas falls into this bracket - and there are lots of them.

 

At the other end of the scale (Usually the RP crowd) we have players who most extremely identity and empathise with their digital characters.

 

Neither camp has a monopoly on "the right way to make a game." Except its important to understand that NEARLY all gamers are affected in some way, to a greater or lesser degree: there is a HUGE segment of plaeyers in the middle of these two camps - the majority of gamers. I am describing a mechanism that applies to them as well.

 

It is a direct appeal to human instinct and a preconditioned aspect of human nature to build this type of bond. This is what makes Roleplay such a very real immersive experience, if you do it right. As I said before.

 

remember what I said though: Roleplayers are the canaries in the birdcage. If they are happy then it means there is a persistent gameplay experience there that other players will also enjoy (Albeit to probably a less-geeky degree :) ).

 

MMORPG designers understand this bond and as much as possible encourage it - because it has offers several very real opportunities: It increases gamer loyalty (players want to spend more time with or vicariously-as their virtual character) and it can be monetized (for example: cosmetic items pets etc.). No game developer should ignore it. every game developer should cater to it.

 

You say:

My avatar died many times and killed many other players, but in essence, the "lore" of the game was created by people - doing exactly what you want because as you say,

 

I'm a roleplayer - and I love the idea of player driven lore, but I am under no illusions as to where the burden of defining a comprehensive game system lies. the Canon lore of the game IS the rp game system as much as the gameplay mechanisms.

 

I described the importance of lore and predefined systems as RP devices - and how important they were to anchor the RP persistence element.. I will try to be specific about this: The primary RP mechanism I think is most absent, related to game lore, is lore-driven gameplay design. Art+Craft are using a "gameplay drives lore" design aproach.. things like the deities are being designed simply to facilitiate team-based game mechanics, rather than pursuing a story for its own sake - which is more like Blizzards approach.

 

"Why should this matter? Crowfall is not a PvE game!" I hear everybody cry...

 

Well neither is Overwatch (the example I used, but Blizzard still felt the need to define quite a deep story. Arguably it is only becuase of the background Titan stuff that Overwatch came about..:

 

I will give examples of the difference- please bear with me.

 

Heres a really simple example:

 

Game design driving lore is where for example every hitbox for every archetype should be equal size: Easy to balance but every character fits a common pretty generic mold. Better for game design - worse for gameplay diversity. Easy to understand.

 

Lore driving game design is where someone says "We have to have a guineacean because its part of our world" and so then a character with a smaller hitbox has to be made. The result is a more complex gamedesign, and potentially issues with gameplay balance, but increased gameplay diversity, and a richer lore environment.

 

So.... Imagine that I took the writing team of Art+Craft away from the development team.. and *Forced them* to write a story - an epic lore. To dream as big as they can.. and then to come back and give it to the developers... The result would be gamelore driven gameplay, and I can promise you it would be more condusive to the Player experience as regard persistence and vicarious immersion.

 

Blizzard take this approach even on Overwatch - but also you can see the results of heavy story driven lore directing gameplay in strategy games like starcraft 2. Once they commit to a lore canon thats it...

 

And yes absolutely Players can write and direct their own lore - but one should never make the mistake of thinking player based stories can replace canon lore.. Player Fiction works best in the world it serves. If veryone has a different world there is no consensus: There is no Roleplay - only fan fiction.

 

Later you say:

 

My point is simply, you may be focusing too much on your desire to attach to an avatar for a long duration or through many interactions while missing what Crowfall offers that could be seriously better than many of the MMORPGs you listed; that is, the sandbox/themepark distinction:

 

I really believe I'm not speaking from personal desires, but rather Im observing the absence of familiar devices. Im basing this on my experiences as a gamer and as a Roleplayer - as an amateur fiction writer. I also took a few online courses in game design so the chances are Im overnerding some of this stuff - but I dont think my perspective is entirely unobjective. I consider this mechaism as fundamental to eve Online to tera to BDO to ESO to Overwatch to Secret World to Tera to Star Citizen to Elite Dangerous to ... yeah. Ive played a lot of games.

 

Anyone who knows me knows RP is my interest. Lore is something I take very seriously as a building block of a persistent character experience. I depsair its absence even in games that dont intentionally cate rto RP because I know what that absence means. I also put my money where my mouth is. My level of investment in Crowfall is currently around the 600 dollar mark. My level of investment in Star Citizen is around 6000 dollars. I can honestly say that is a direct consequene of the amount of Lore in these games (Star Citizen has way more lore!). the day CF releases its lore V1.0 I will stick another 1000 dollars in there. I also run CrowfallRP.com and stuck 200 dollars in prize moeny for a competition for players to write RP for Crowfall. I hope I can persuade you that Im serious about this stuff.

 

 

you can affect the world, your interactions actually matter in shaping the space in which you play your role, and you can choose from a variety of roles not available in those games. The shared worlds of almost all of the games you listed would look and act the exact same way whether you played them relentlessly or never. Not the case for Crowfall.

 

If the way I affect the game world is only a gameplay mechanic then I am not achieving the persistent character experience. I can affect the gameplay state of a game of chess but that doesnt mean I am going to form a personal attachment to a character. Nor do I expect to be able to be left alone to write the rules (the lore) of a game of chess.

 

tl;dr Let's say (hypothetically) vessels/crows winds up to by the nightmare you imagine, Crowfall still (hypothetically) offers game systems that allow more roleplay, in the way you describe it, than the games you compare it to. If you still hate it, then I guess it's not a good game for you...

 

its not a nightmare.. Im not sure why this level of discussion is considered trolling or doomsaying or anything. I await more information in Art+Craft to deliver these mecahnisms or describe how they will build others (that maybe I havent thought of). I am a roleplayer at the very deep end and I struggle to RP in Crowfall. I have spent a bit of time trying to dientify why. Also ive tried to figure out why our RP community is so abnormally small. Ive watched the discussions related to the vessel system and Ive seen the prioritisation for gameplay over lore. I'm putting two and two together and explaining what I see.

 

having said all that: this was never meant to be more than a conversation. I think Crowfall is in good hand sand have faith in the Devs.

 

Discussing these things is not the same as panicking about them. I wonder if maybe Im approaching this in a way people havent considered before - and you know the old saying "People fear that which they dont understand".

Nothing Im describing is very new - As I said before these RP devices have been around for 40 years. I simply ask people to consider that they are far more important, and usually far more invisible than people are aware of.

 

I hope this helps.

 

 

 

 

TL:DR - Your previous post began with "these mechanisms already exist in CF.. and I feel they arent. I explained why I thought so - but perhaps not well enough so Ive tried to revisit my thoughts and be more specific to your particular arguments. Please read this post as a supplement to the previous 2. Sorry that that is a lot of reading: this is not simple stuff to discuss.

 

Bnol - I also hope I have answered your post sufficently?

Edited by Deloria

www.CrowfallRP.com


Disclaimer: My RP with you might become a public story: https://soundcloud.com/shiv-mahon

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While I understand your point of view, you seem to be ignoring the game market today.

 

 

I think the rest of your post pretty well supports your view that the gameplay market today is diverse and multi-elemental - and that it doesnt all revolve around that Rp persistence part - so I wont answer line by line as I did for McTan. Please dont take that as a sign I didn't read your post :)

 

But I hope my post immediately following yours describes the answer well enough and that you will consider it to be worth reading despite its length. I think (and I described) ALL games use the devices I describe to a varying degree - even Mobas to some extent. I give the example of Overwatch and its basis in the Titan lore - but also it is absolutley true that gamers are different. I describe in my post that the typical moba gamer is probalby less interested in the devices I describe - but still that there exists in between the polar opposite groups of gameplay focused and rp focused groups a very large group - the majority of players - who will be affected *to some degree* whether they realise it or not.

 

At this point nearly everybody tries to interject their own subjective experiences "I never liked to RP so it didnt matter to me."

Thats not the point.. Everyone is different but the RP devices I describe are universally applicable - its just that they vary so extremely from player to player. Even in this thread we ee the discussion dripping down to players own subjective experiences as regards their character player experiences.

 

Some might be so affected as to buy a 2 dollar skin for their elf chick. Some might be so affected as to spend 30,000 dollars on a shroud of the Avatar castle - but it all comes under the same rule: To put it as simply as possible: Character loyalty is driven by RP devices like character persistence. If you had to swap out your elft chick tommorrow would you buy her a 2 dollar skin? Maybe - but less likely.

 

If any part of my previous answer doesnt satisfy you as to my point of view (I dont expect you to agree with it of course - its only my opinion) then please let me know and I will try to give you a forthright answer. 

Edited by Deloria

www.CrowfallRP.com


Disclaimer: My RP with you might become a public story: https://soundcloud.com/shiv-mahon

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And it still doesn't have to be, since they said they'd try out new things, and not losing your body on death was discussed for outer realms.

Plus, we gain more risk/reward with vessels on the line.

 

In other words, why do you think ACE decided to try crows and vessels? 

 

As I said: the vessel system offers a very interesting gameplay mechanic. It offers agility in strategic skill matching for combat and other things. It is a primary example of gameplay directing lore. The challenge is it is not yet fully thought out with regards the character persistence device I described earlier.

 

I also described what I thought was a potential fix at the bottom of post #76.


www.CrowfallRP.com


Disclaimer: My RP with you might become a public story: https://soundcloud.com/shiv-mahon

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so i read the end of the post 76 your descriped and a lot of the other posts ( not everything there is just to mutch text here.)

 

I dont get how you can say that people wont buy skins with the current system where the vessel is gone forever once it died.

 

Just look at Path of Exile. Lots of people play Hardcore and still buy tons of skins. Just give everyone an Item shop inventar. Once someones vessel is gone the item shop equipment gets back to the inventory.

 

Most people dont buy skins to imerese themself with the character but to look cool with it. Thats a least my exp.

 

All in all i understand you trying to change crowfall in a way where you like it to go. But please refrain from pointing out stuff that is plainly wrong such as people not buying skins for the sake of trying to get the devs to do something.

 

 

I didnt even want to join this post but after reading some of the Bull**** that some people wrote here i just could not hold back.

 

My option here is to leave the system as it is and dont waste dev time for something like RP in a hardcore pvp game. Again my option. Do what you want with that. Im not going to repeat post that option like other people do here as that doesnt make it more true or false no matter how many times you write it down.


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so i read the end of the post 76 your descriped and a lot of the other posts ( not everything there is just to mutch text here.)

 

I dont get how you can say that people wont buy skins with the current system where the vessel is gone forever once it died.

 

Just look at Path of Exile. Lots of people play Hardcore and still buy tons of skins. Just give everyone an Item shop inventar. Once someones vessel is gone the item shop equipment gets back to the inventory.

 

Most people dont buy skins to imerese themself with the character but to look cool with it. Thats a least my exp.

 

All in all i understand you trying to change crowfall in a way where you like it to go. But please refrain from pointing out stuff that is plainly wrong such as people not buying skins for the sake of trying to get the devs to do something.

 

 

I didnt even want to join this post but after reading some of the Bull**** that some people wrote here i just could not hold back.

 

My option here is to leave the system as it is and dont waste dev time for something like RP in a hardcore pvp game. Again my option. Do what you want with that. Im not going to repeat post that option like other people do here as that doesnt make it more true or false no matter how many times you write it down.

 

 

I think people will buy skins sure.. especially if they cost 2 dollars. Monetization is easy to do at a very low level.

Character persistence is not THE ONLY reason that monetization works. Im sorry if it seemed I was saying that.

 

Its more like character persistence is a big opportunity to monetize.. and affects VERY many players - and if a Game dev does character persistence right it will allow them to monetize at a far greater rate.- such as selling skins. Also: The characters in Path of Exile are persistent, even if they are not actually greatly customizable: I play Path of Exile and bought a few things for my witch including a cat - I can also use the cat for all my other characters, including my hardcore ones (a few of who have died). I dont really have any relationship to my PoE characters.. I am like you and just bought skins ot do a bit of dressup and support the game... to the tune of about 5 dollars. I wouldnt pay much more tbh.

 

Path of Exile would arguably be able to monetize even more if they worked on more unique customization options for their characters instead of keeping them generic: for example If I could dress my with up and make her unique I probably would. 

 

I really like the PoE ethical transaction approach to funding - and I think they use a few RP devices very well (such as persistent character experience and the monetisation of this)... even if in a somewhat limited way (very little individual customization). So I think PoE kjind of proves my point tbh.

 

Also: I explicitly said that there is a whole swath of players inbetween those players that play for rp and those that play for gameplay... Character Persistence is a rp device for increasing loyalty to the game in a way that amplifies game loyalty - but please dont think of it as something that only applies to a Roleplayer or roleplay game. pretty much ALL games use it to some degree - including PoE:

 

EDIT: also Its not about the character "dying and all their skins disappear." liek as a hardcore permadeath thing..thats just one example of a gameplay deisgn limiting persistence... Others include making it too easy to swap between characters, or limiting custom characterisation, or limiting lore attributes / geneitic / racial attributes / or making character progression too generic, or making characters tradeable / replaceable / stealable / upgradeable - which is basically itemising them as resoruces rather than treating them as identities. there are A LOT of factors that can diminish the Character persistence experience - And short of a bit more information I feel Crowfall currently uses a few of them without identifying how to balance the scale towards persistence.

Edited by Deloria

www.CrowfallRP.com


Disclaimer: My RP with you might become a public story: https://soundcloud.com/shiv-mahon

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In my subjective experience, character persistence does not always equal character attachment. 

 

I loved all my UO characters - they were uniquely mine. Each character had a full "life" with different skills, friends, and activities to focus on. I made the story of each character by how I played and what I did in the world. UO had lore that served as the sandbox framework. From that starting point, players created everything else, and I had some amazing RP experiences there.

 

In contrast, I never felt attached to my WoW characters - never felt like they were mine. Sure I invested alot of time in quest leveling and acquiring BIS gear, playing through the script Blizzard wrote for me. There were no important choices, no way to impact the world or community in any significant way.

 

I do feel CF will have somewhat less personal character attachment for me than UO. And it's not related to the vessels system - it's mainly because CF campaign worlds have win conditions, and that changes the focus of player's behavior to the group rather than individual character. I'm okay with that, it's the game concept I signed on for.


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I had to remake my favorite Shadowbane character a dozen or more times. Even though Shadowbane servers were ostensibly permanent, the truth is they all ended eventually. With each new "wipe" and fresh server I remade the character. 

 

This didn't impact my ability to roleplay the character at all. Jah was Jah. In my mind Jah still exists. If I go back to Shadowbane again, I'll make the character again and continue where I left off. I never got stuck on the notion that "this Jah isn't exactly the same as Jah on the last server." And I never saw anyone else confused by it. When I met people on a new server they knew who I was from the last server and continued normally. They didn't get freaked out because the old Jah is technically gone and this new Jah is some kind of imposter.

 

I feel like the Vessels and Crows system is just an iteration on the Characters and Accounts system we are already familiar with. It is not the death knell to persistence and attachment that it seems to be.

 

Far more important than the technicality of whether your character has recycled through multiple vessels are the actual relationships you form with other players, the conflicts you engage in, the story that you live while playing.

Edited by Jah

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In my subjective experience, character persistence does not always equal character attachment. 

 

I loved all my UO characters - they were uniquely mine. Each character had a full "life" with different skills, friends, and activities to focus on. I made the story of each character by how I played and what I did in the world. UO had lore that served as the sandbox framework. From that starting point, players created everything else, and I had some amazing RP experiences there.

 

In contrast, I never felt attached to my WoW characters - never felt like they were mine. Sure I invested alot of time in quest leveling and acquiring BIS gear, playing through the script Blizzard wrote for me. There were no important choices, no way to impact the world or community in any significant way.

 

I do feel CF will have somewhat less personal character attachment for me than UO. And it's not related to the vessels system - it's mainly because CF campaign worlds have win conditions, and that changes the focus of player's behavior to the group rather than individual character. I'm okay with that, it's the game concept I signed on for.

 

I can totally see this - I think Character persistence is an important part of game loyalty (perhaps one of the primary ones) - but obviously not the only one. Another would be the social aspect that McTan describes: being in a community and playing with friends.. Being extremely skilled is another - and of course just really enjoying the game for its own sake is another. These are all valid. 

 

WoW had a massive element of themepark and player experience via its PvE aspects that Crowfall wont have: Simply: The epic setting and storyline had a lot to do with building game loyalty. I remember sitting on my dads lap being mindblown by the elves ( I was 6 or 7?).. And how much he loved WoW as an experience. He still has his WoW characters ( Or I do - I have his Blizzard account) and Im pretty sure he had an emotional attachment to them.

 

Every person is different... but what Im saying is that IF you can build up your characters to such a degree that people have an emotiopnal response its a sign of a great development.. This also applies to TV and movies and books.

 

Some people watch TV.. Others emotionally attach...  (This is totally me when my RP characters die by the way #NotAshamed).

 

Im not saying that everyone has an emotional response... Im saying if people do its a sign your development is good (be it a game or a tv show).

Edited by Deloria

www.CrowfallRP.com


Disclaimer: My RP with you might become a public story: https://soundcloud.com/shiv-mahon

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I had to remake my favorite Shadowbane character a dozen or more times. Even though Shadowbane servers were ostensibly permanent, the truth is they all ended eventually. With each new "wipe" and fresh server I remade the character. 

 

This didn't impact my ability to roleplay the character at all. Jah was Jah. In my mind Jah still exists. If I go back to Shadowbane again, I'll make the character again and continue where I left off. I never got stuck on the notion that "this Jah isn't exactly the same as Jah on the last server." And I never saw anyone else confused by it. When I met people on a new server they knew who I was from the last server and continued normally. They didn't get freaked out because the old Jah is technically gone and this new Jah is some kind of imposter.

 

I feel like the Vessels and Crows system is just an iteration on the Characters and Accounts system we are already familiar with. It is not the death knell to persistence and attachment that it seems to be.

 

Far more important that the technicality of whether your character has recycled through multiple vessels is the actual relationships you form with other players, the conflicts you engage in, the story that you live while playing.

 

I understand what you're saying... and tyo a degree I agree with you: It should be possible to *brute force* our character persistence. But Ive tried to describe why I think it would be better for RP, and the game as a whole, if there was a dedicated effort to allow for a natural, traditional persistence rather than forcing players to work against the system, or despite the absence of the system, for it.

 

*edit: I want to add: Thats why I think this has been a calm rational discussion - rather than the rantfest that some people are trying to paint it as :P

Edited by Deloria

www.CrowfallRP.com


Disclaimer: My RP with you might become a public story: https://soundcloud.com/shiv-mahon

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The primary mechanisms which dont exist are character persistence and gamelore driven gameplay.

 

Yet from my view, characters (Crows) are persistent and lore is driving the reasoning for the gameplay. Seems to be a matter of perspective. Why are we crafting, fighting, joining guilds, etc? Seems as deep or driving as any other game I've played with these features.

 

When I played WoW, I didn't kill Alliance because I had some hatred for them nor farm bosses because I thought the story was so rich, but rather I chose a side which forced me to fight a side (arenas changed this) and I wanted shiny loot. Lore is a backdrop for these things, regardless if I'm playing one or five characters running through the same quests as the others. Never was my character changed in anyway due to my decisions in game.

 

Character Persistence is about character permanence. Imagine after 3 deaths I took away your character OR maybe how about I let you play and develop that character over many months and then one day take it away from you. 

 

This doesn't happen in CF that I know of. You die and there will be some mechanism to respawn be it the same form or another, but the "character" aka Crow remains and continues to grow and be a part of the everything that you experience.

 

Maybe you should define what makes a character? For me it goes beyond the form.

 

Character persistence is pretty straightforward: You create a character and play with it. No matter what happens in the game world you will always return to that character. The Game experience is based around that character, and that character will follow a development path: it will learn skills, grow, evolve, suffer setbacks.

 

This should happen in CF. The hang up appears to be your need to connect the concept of a "character" to a particular form. While we don't know the exact details, I doubt we'll respawn and have a different name, be guildless, and on the other side of the map. There likely will be familiar elements that tie our forms together. Maybe even Archetype visual customizing will carry over from one to the next without any breaking of immersion having to redo our hair color and what not.

 

The "won't have memory of faction" comments are what they are, but not sure how you would explain in lore about players being able to move from CW to CW with various rules without there being some RP issue.

 

Players become intimately familiar with that character, and since they defined it at the outset, have a sense of loyalty to it. 

 

See no reason this isn't possible in CF. More RP elements might make this easier, but it isn't missing in CF entirely.

 

Canon lore of the game IS the rp game system as much as the gameplay mechanisms.

 

So far, the lore seems fairly thought out and I can only assume it will grow as time passes. Clearly it isn't a throw way for ACE. They've shown efforts to make story/canon in various ways. There's the overall story of why Crows are doing what they are, Archetype/God backgrounds, assuming there will be some reasoning to follow a particular one in a faction ruleset, they have written some narratives to go with this and comics.

 

lore-driven gameplay design. Art+Craft are using a "gameplay drives lore" design aproach.. things like the deities are being designed simply to facilitiate team-based game mechanics, rather than pursuing a story for its own sake - which is more like Blizzards approach.

 

This seems like a matter of opinion. Which came first the chicken or the egg? I'm not going to pretend to know the inner workings or thoughts of those behind games, but I don't believe it is as straight forward as you seem to think. I'd bet it is more of an overall process where mechanics and lore come together as development progresses, with particulars shaping the other as time goes on.

 

Blizzard themselves have said as much.

 

Game design driving lore is where for example every hitbox for every archetype should be equal size

 

Pretty sure they are trying to avoid this. 

 

Lore driving game design is where someone says "We have to have a guineacean because its part of our world" and so then a character with a smaller hitbox has to be made. The result is a more complex gamedesign, and potentially issues with gameplay balance, but increased gameplay diversity, and a richer lore environment.

 

Seems to be where they are heading. Although the "rich lore environment" simply might not fit their design, not that it is missing completely. I'm guessing to fill your version of the term, they'd have to basically make a different game or spend a lot of resources to make it fit what they already have.

 

I really believe I'm not speaking from personal desires, but rather Im observing the absence of familiar devices. Im basing this on my experiences.....

 

You might believe that, but we all seem to be speaking from our personal desires as why would we not? I'm not going to advocate for something I don't strongly want myself. It comes down to you want something and find the reasoning.

 

There is no conclusive data to show a game will be better off with or without what you want, although I'd say it wouldn't hurt having it but comes at a cost that might not be worth it. Considering the amount of support ACE has received without a strong RP element suggests that fans as a whole aren't greatly concerned.

 

If CF flops, I strongly believe it won't have anything to do with lore/RP elements.

 

If the way I affect the game world is only a gameplay mechanic then I am not achieving the persistent character experience.

 

How do you affect a mmorpg through role play?

 

How does being able to actually be apart of a game universe and directly impact it have less RP significance than being a pre-created race/class that just goes through the same treadmill as everyone else with little to zero impact on anything outside of themselves? This seems odd, unless I'm missing something.

 

If I was going to care more about the RP/lore aspects, I'd much rather do so in a open "sandbox-like" game than a funneled content design.

 

 

I am a roleplayer at the very deep end and I struggle to RP in Crowfall. I have spent a bit of time trying to dientify why. Also ive tried to figure out why our RP community is so abnormally small. 

 

Could be that the game isn't trying to cater to the RP community or simply that they haven't released enough context to work with. Again, I assume they haven't finalized lore as finished and it will continue to develop along side the rest of the game.

 

Also could be you are approaching CF like you would more traditional games and need to change your perspective to fit it, not the other way around.

 

Character loyalty is driven by RP devices like character persistence. If you had to swap out your elft chick tommorrow would you buy her a 2 dollar skin? Maybe - but less likely.. 

 

This is assuming you have to swap and or can't swap back afterwards. It doesn't have to be so extreme where you lose all previous identity.

 

"Characters" don't go away, just like any other mmorpg. They simply can take on different forms. Maybe you just don't like the lore and are struggling to RP the way you want with it, but I find it to work better than something like Overwatch or BDO.

 

Blizzard spent all the time/money creating interesting heroes and a backstory, yet it has zero impact on gameplay. Makes for fun outside of game (cosplay/fan fic), but is pointless beyond a backdrop and fluff to make things more entertaining. Lore doesn't drive anything, yet people seem to be bonding with the characters and universe quite well.

 

Played BDO for several months and couldn't tell you what it's lore is. Just another cookie cutter design that as I suggested earlier, unless you spend all day taking selfies, all the visual stuff is a waste. Lore wise, I wasn't drawn in at all and didn't have to be to kill monsters and players. Overall a very empty experience for me and had no issue leaving.

 

Yet you would rather spend money on BDO than OW? How does that impact your RP and character persistence one way or another?

 

 

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And it still doesn't have to be, since they said they'd try out new things, and not losing your body on death was discussed for outer realms.

Plus, we gain more risk/reward with vessels on the line.

 

In other words, why do you think ACE decided to try crows and vessels? 

 

I agree there can be both (and I do suspect that many players might appreciate a way to have there more traditional character). 


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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lots... but all answered in previous posts tbh.

 

 

I think Ive answered all your points in very great detail - we go round in circles and I think have to agree to disagree.

 

Please see post 78 - I really did answer why the crow form is not a sufficient character persona, but Im happy you agree the vessel is also not sufficient either.

 

Otherwise:

 

No. The lore is missing and as the devs have said, intentionally lightweight. Hoepfully this is a work in progress however. I have pointed thi sout and even quoted the devs in previous posts.

 

Also please not Im trying to give examples when I describe gamplay driving lore versus lore driving gameplay etc.. I dont think I can answer you any more than I have already done in previous posts.

Edited by Deloria

www.CrowfallRP.com


Disclaimer: My RP with you might become a public story: https://soundcloud.com/shiv-mahon

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I think Ive answered all your points in very great detail - we go round in circles and I think have to agree to disagree.

 

Fair enough.

 

Overall, I doubt what you want will be part of CF. Beyond trying to please a particular demo, it isn't needed to carry out the design they've presented nor needed for players to enjoy themselves. At least in comparison to major game systems that need to be focused on.

 

Non-Gameplay, lore, and fluff elements can and most likely will be added in over time, but for a game built with battle as a focal point, doesn't seem like a priority.

 

Might just be a situation where the game/design doesn't fit your play style perfectly and you'll either have to accept it or not.

 

As it is presented now, the Crow/Vessel system sounds great to me, but might just be that I enjoy a wide variety of games/genres and don't get hung up on lore/story. I can't play single player games and would rather enjoy a social world focused on player interaction and content and not what the devs provide. CF hopefully has room for a variety of fans, but will have to check some expectations at the door like every game.

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No. The lore is missing and as the devs have said, intentionally lightweight. Hoepfully this is a work in progress however. I have pointed thi sout and even quoted the devs in previous posts.

 

 

Which makes sense with Crowfall being a PVP sandbox.  Where would the developers introduce this deeper lore?  There aren't gameplay elements to do so (e.g. PVE).  So any lore would have to be external to gameplay or just shoved in gameplay via books/art/etc.  I bet there will be more lore introduced at a later date, but it was not something that was ever going to be a focus.

 

You mentioned Overwatch lore driving gameplay, and I have to say that it is one of the worst games in terms of lore and gameplay integration.  A gross oversimplification of the lore is that former good Overwatch members "the good guys" are coming back to protect the world from bad former Overwatch members or "the bad guys" (yes there is a bunch of stuff that happened in the past, but in terms of what you are doing in the game the summary fits).  Yet in the game you can be teamed with anyone you want.  Want Winston, Tracer, Reaper, and Widow on the same team, no problem, even though they are constantly fighting each other in the cinematics.  Also, why are you pushing that cart over and over (yes I know the cart is a bomb, a limo, etc.)?  But the lore aspects are just wrappers, wrappers that are actually experienced outside of the gameplay through cinematics and posts on the website.  A very small amount of lore is actually in the game, and that also makes a lot of sense, because you don't have a lot of time to dig for the lore while you are fighting other players.

 

In terms of character and vessel, if you cannot get past your vessel being destroyed or inhabiting another vessel to change archetypes, then this might not be the game for you.  The vessel is just another piece of the economic puzzle, in which you will gather, fight, steal and destroy.  Every craftable item needs to have decay, or the system will fail.  This is unlikely to change, potentially there could be a ruleset that has no decay on vessels, but I find that highly unlikely, as that creates more issues than it is worth, but they likely will have the ability to adjust those knobs. 

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ACE/Crowfall hasnt shown something these almost past 2 years I am too excited about anymore to be honest.

I am a bit dryed out.

Lets see what they got next month.

Most of my encouragement is already kind of dumped down, to hoping for a decent game at best, but not something of what I was expecting or imagining at the beginning of 2015.

...

:(

I am looking for Dark and Light now, but yes, kind of the same feeling it might not meet my expectations or hopes. But looks more promising than Crowfall to be honest.

 

Star Citizen didnt make so much felt progress this past year as well, but it made progress I was able to perceive, and its much more ambitous and complex. I liked the planetary gameplay videos. It shows progress. They are getting there.

 

But Crowfall isnt really too much of a huge problem in my opinion, its not that incredible and ambitious. You should be able to make this game with the resources they got. Not even Voxel destruction or creation isnt a thing anymore, with which I dont have a problem with, but it makes the game easier to create. So I dont fully understand why thre are such issues delaying the development.

We are entering end of 2016, which was the expected release date, but we know the game is still far from a release worthy state, and even mid of 2017 release wont be happening with the progress of development so far.

All the bragging about industry veterans at the start of 2015 was a bit taking the mouth too full in my opinion.

I would wish Crowfall to be much more complex gameplay wise, but with development so far i got not high expectations of getting a complex, impressive game.

Can someone please make EverQuest Next?

Edited by Urahara

After EverQuest Next is gone, its Star Citizen for me.

 

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I think its perfectly fine not to know how one feels about the game at this point. This early in the process its hard for some to be able to look ahead and see potential but its also easy for some to presume and predict what will happen (most times on the gloom and doom side of things).

 

The hope is as the game gets more fleshed out with the various game systems coming online you get a better picture and can form more informed opinions about the game. And as always prepare for that chance that this game may just not be for you.

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