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FAQ Revision: Crafting & Economy

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 Many of us seem to forget Blueprints

 

IS THERE ANY WAY TO MASS PRODUCE ITEMS?

Yes! Taking inspiration from other titles (most notably Star Wars Galaxies), we have a system where crafters can essentially turn a crafted item into a blueprint that will consume it but allow the crafter to produce a limited number of copies of that item in bulk.  ~Crafting FAQ

So I want to copy over what I said on reddit, because its worth mentioning:

 

It looks great so far, but I am a little worried about two specific points:

  • Point of Interests of the same type can have different QUALITY of material

  • Crafting an item will have an RNG proc to decide if it gets (slightly) better stats

Look, I am all for crafting diversity, and I understand the reasoning behind making a desire for good crafters. People who invest in crafting will be able to make better gear.

I am just worried by all of the variance. I am not a fan of having (for example) two different kinds of copper, one is better than the other. That is what different "tiers" of materials are for. Iron is better than copper, copper shouldn't be better than copper. I feel like it's just needless at that point.

Of course all this is just pre-implementation worry. It could all work out extremely well together. Those areas are just where I am a little concerned ATM.

Sacrificing an item you made well to make it into a blueprint should reduce your RNG woes.

Items made from that blueprint would require the same input resources,

but output that same quality you got from the good dice roll that resulted in your original item.

 

 

To add on to your concern, what's the difference between a dedicated crafter (dc) and an alt crafter (ac) with a wiki?

  1. The dc will have more blueprints for legendary items the customers want.
  2. Logistics.
  • Great equipment will require great resources, great craft skill, and multiple craft disciplines.
  • Distributing that equipment will require preparation and marketing.

If you put in the effort to craft great items, maybe that combat crow becomes your alt account?

Edited by chancellor

I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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So I want to copy over what I said on reddit, because its worth mentioning:

 

It looks great so far, but I am a little worried about two specific points:

  • Point of Interests of the same type can have different QUALITY of material

  • Crafting an item will have an RNG proc to decide if it gets (slightly) better stats

Look, I am all for crafting diversity, and I understand the reasoning behind making a desire for good crafters. People who invest in crafting will be able to make better gear.

I am just worried by all of the variance. I am not a fan of having (for example) two different kinds of copper, one is better than the other. That is what different "tiers" of materials are for. Iron is better than copper, copper shouldn't be better than copper. I feel like it's just needless at that point.

Of course all this is just pre-implementation worry. It could all work out extremely well together. Those areas are just where I am a little concerned ATM.

 

I see no problem with varying quality types of the same resource as you discussed, because it allows for varying degrees of risk to be rewarded. This is also easily supported by lore/science in that some nodes could have a greater amount of impurities which would result in a lower quality metal. I'm not sure if they have plans for it but this would allow for craftsmen who specialize in refining ore to perhaps take a bulk set of poor quality ore and create either bulk metal of a low quality or a smaller amount of a better quality. Ultimately this gives the game designers options, and forces players out into the wilds to find those coveted resources which in turn allows other players to hunt down those squishy targets.

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I see no problem with varying quality types of the same resource as you discussed, because it allows for varying degrees of risk to be rewarded. This is also easily supported by lore/science in that some nodes could have a greater amount of impurities which would result in a lower quality metal. I'm not sure if they have plans for it but this would allow for craftsmen who specialize in refining ore to perhaps take a bulk set of poor quality ore and create either bulk metal of a low quality or a smaller amount of a better quality. Ultimately this gives the game designers options, and forces players out into the wilds to find those coveted resources which in turn allows other players to hunt down those squishy targets.

 

The issue then boils down to making sure that realism doesn't become a substitute for "fun".  In my opinion (which may be wrong) it seems like they are banking on crafting appealing to people who enjoy calculations and spreadsheet management in their games.  Fair enough I guess...  I will just not craft, and that is fine.

 

Unfortunately the same mentality seems to be bleeding into the armor system with what (again in my opinion) seems like an unnecessary amount of damage/resistance types that are only going to make choosing which equipment to wear another exercise in calculations and spreadsheet management.  I guess we'll see soon enough how it plays out.

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I like the looks of it! In particular, the RnG aspect regarding resources / reagents / components - reducing recipes -  and importance of specializing in a tree. It will encourage folks to actually spend time crafting rather than waiting on passive skill training to unlock something. Experimentation means effort is required: time commitment, resources, trial & error. RnG means no guarantee of the result.

Edited by Cordite

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WON’T THIS ENCOURAGE A LOT OF PEOPLE TO MAKE ALTERNATE CHARACTERS FOR CRAFTING (ALTS)?
 
Probably not. We want to encourage players to play a single character within a campaign, so we’re putting design rules in place to encourage it. An upshot of this design is that the best crafters won’t generally be alternate characters because (due to the limited ability to train skills in parallel) treating crafting as an afterthought will not be a very effective strategy.
 
Recruiting proficient and dedicated crafters will be one key ingredient to waging a successful campaign. The same can be said of recruiting players who specialize in scouting, raiding or sieging.
 
Players (and guilds) will need to make smart, strategic choices about skill specialization - and even team composition, before entering a campaign.

 

 

This part needs to be verified by ACE, I think it is out of date. Alt Characters are no longer a thing with the vessel system. Please clarify if you are talking about alt accounts here Pann, Tyrant or someone.

 

If this is not out of date and you are indeed talking about account alts then you are simply wrong. Right now 4 things that we know of influence crafting:

 

1 - Skill levels (passive training, can be done on alt account).
2 - Crafting station upgrades (not bound to characters, as far as we know anyone can use them, including alt accounts)
3 - Thralls (same as point 2, not tied to characters, attached to the stations).
4 - Resources (other people can gather them and store them at the crafting stations and any crafter can use them, including alt accounts).
 
As you can see, all of those things do not prevent or discourage alt crafting accounts. The system still needs work or as time passes and crafting alt accounts get more and more versatile the crafter mains will become less and less significant.

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I've been waiting a long time for this. Looks exactly like what I wished for! Now hurry up and let me test it all out :)

 

My only concern is the potential for small guild crafters being gated by not having access to materials that big guilds hoard. I'm hoping the information on guilds and "Sub-Guilds" may include some good news for small guilds in general pertaining to the cooperation of multiple small guilds.

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To add on to your concern, what's the difference between a dedicated crafter and an alt crafter with a wiki?

 

Don't see much. They seem to be removing most of the active parts that typically make a crafter a crafter and allowing anyone to do it with a little bit of effort on another account.

 

They only referenced alt characters on the same account. Having a second account hasn't been addressed yet. I hope it is with some sort of online activity that you can't do with passive training.

 

You can hope that but so far there doesn't seem to be any suggestion of active playing factoring in beyond being the one putting in the time experimenting and what not while others reap the benefits. Although being a game built upon conflict, maybe we won't see a bunch of databases pop up over night with crafting builders, but I doubt it. Some folks love the backend more than actively playing these games it seems and have no cares about winning/losing anything that guides/builders assist.

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  1. The dc will have more blueprints for legendary items the customers want.
  2. Logistics.
  • Great equipment will require great resources, great craft skill, and multiple craft disciplines.
  • Distributing that equipment will require preparation and marketing.

If you put in the effort to craft great items, maybe that combat crow becomes your alt account?

 

Why would a DC have more blueprints on hand or even access to more than an Alt? Assuming anyone can look up how to create XYZ and do so with the proper build.

 

Why would a DC have more resources to work with, a higher craft skill, or specific disciplines? Anyone can obtain resources and disciplines and skill training is passive.

 

With what makes a crafter a crafter being either plug and play (disciplines/recipes) or passive (skill/recipes), it is just as hard or easy for an alt as a main to go after a particular market/item at any time.

 

Thralls and AFK shops seem to remove even the active need to market/prep for sale as well.

 

Then again, I assume a decent chunk of people will be in guild/alliances and focused on supporting their teams, not selling items for profit. This as well removes need to market to outsiders.

 

Not saying the system is totally hopeless, but still need more details/context for the full picture. Their short blurb about alts didn't seem to clear anything up and if anything the overall "revision" seemed to make alts more likely to be a valid crafting option for individuals and guilds.

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This part needs to be verified by ACE, I think it is out of date. Alt Characters are no longer a thing with the vessel system. Please clarify if you are talking about alt accounts here Pann, Tyrant or someone.

 

If this is not out of date and you are indeed talking about account alts then you are simply wrong. Right now 4 things that we know of influence crafting:

 

1 - Skill levels (passive training, can be done on alt account).
2 - Crafting station upgrades (not bound to characters, as far as we know anyone can use them, including alt accounts)
3 - Thralls (same as point 2, not tied to characters, attached to the stations).
4 - Resources (other people can gather them and store them at the crafting stations and any crafter can use them, including alt accounts).
 
As you can see, all of those things do not prevent or discourage alt crafting accounts. The system still needs work or as time passes and crafting alt accounts get more and more versatile the crafter mains will become less and less significant.

 

 

I assume they meant multiple accounts as we only have one "character" with the crow/vessel system and training. Many have brought up the issue with alt accounts on both the guild and individual level.

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I assume they meant multiple accounts as we only have one "character" with the crow/vessel system and training. Many have brought up the issue with alt accounts on both the guild and individual level.

Instead of assuming I thought it was better to ask. The whole vocabulary on this question screams of pre vessel reveal. I think it was there in the FAQ before the update and they haven't changed it.

 

EDIT: Also, there is a multi-quote button, maybe you wanna give it a try instead of posting 3 times in a row. Just a suggestion.

Edited by LGAllastair

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Guild Leader/ High Elder

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This part needs to be verified by ACE, I think it is out of date. Alt Characters are no longer a thing with the vessel system. Please clarify if you are talking about alt accounts here Pann, Tyrant or someone.

 

If this is not out of date and you are indeed talking about account alts then you are simply wrong. Right now 4 things that we know of influence crafting:

 

1 - Skill levels (passive training, can be done on alt account).

2 - Crafting station upgrades (not bound to characters, as far as we know anyone can use them, including alt accounts)

3 - Thralls (same as point 2, not tied to characters, attached to the stations).

4 - Resources (other people can gather them and store them at the crafting stations and any crafter can use them, including alt accounts).

 

As you can see, all of those things do not prevent or discourage alt crafting accounts. The system still needs work or as time passes and crafting alt accounts get more and more versatile the crafter mains will become less and less significant.

 

 

I think what they are describing here is self-contradictory to be honest:

 

 

(due to the limited ability to train skills in parallel) treating crafting as an afterthought will not be a very effective strategy. <--- This is precisely the reason alts will be used. Players will not want to handicap their crows by having to prioritise crafting. Multi alt guilds will rule Crowfall: If I can create a top tier crafter in addition to my main PvP character why would I restrict myself to one character account and impose limits on myself?

Edited by Deloria

www.CrowfallRP.com


Disclaimer: My RP with you might become a public story: https://soundcloud.com/shiv-mahon

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I have a question or concern about this part:

 

"We decided not to include an auction house because we like the idea of players having to build (and run) shops in the game. Instead, players can collect NPC shopkeepers that can be slotted into buildings to sell items at preset prices when the player is offline.

We also expect that some players will open up their personal kingdoms as “marketplaces” for other players to come and sell their goods and then take a cut out of every transaction that occurs."

 

Lets talk about the Dregs/Shadow, where there will be no imports. Well, the "Personal Kingdom Marketplaces" do us no good. NPC shopkeepers sound great, But how is that going to work? I'll reference Shadowbane, just follow me for a sec.

 

Shadowbane had the ability to "Open" your city to teleport or even repledge. This was often done for mercantile purposes. One town may be filled with profession or class trainers, while another may be filled with buildings and forges selling wares. It could be quite lucrative. They of course were open to teleport, you could teleport in and out from the runemaster at the "Tree of Life" at the center of town. These cities often became PvP hotspots, as you could kill other players and take their inventory (though no equipped items). The thing is as long as you watched track or had a scout with you, and moved fast, you could buy an item and equip it before porting out or being killed. For other items you cannot equip, some of them costing millions of gold, you would have a priest ready to "recall" you or evacuate. Point is there were ways to mitigate the risk other than bringing 10 or 20 guys to a city to browse wares.

 

None of these mechanics exist in Crowfall. There is no evacuation by recall, there is no teleporting out via runemaster. And Crowfall is full loot. So what you buy, you have a very good chance to lose upon purchase in this scenario. Which is bad if you're trying to sell things. Sometimes these merchant cities would be "camped" for hours. 

 

I'm not sure how this player driven economy is going to work, how these crafters are going to make their name, or be sought out, if everyone across the mapset has to travel to cities spread over Hell's half acre to shop at such risk. 

 

Think about it, if there was a Player built "great city" with a renowned group of crafters, I would just camp it with twenty bros for hours "gear farming" all the poor slobs that just ran 10 miles to get there! Griefing! I'll get fat until someone rolls me out! It will be glorious! But of course, bad for business if you're a crafter.

 

Shadowbane had a place, Khar Th'sekt. It was the server trade hub. It was an NPC city and a safe zone for transactions. I think something like this would be a great idea, but that's just me. Make it localized banking only. Make it where you can craft there. But largely, make it for the individual that wants to be the greatest, most renowned crafter for anyone on the server, fueling the war machine for the highest bidders. My concern is there will be no place for these "independent" crafters or a place to truly make trade flourish for mercantile guilds. 

Just my 0.02 of course.

Edited by armegeddon

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I have a question or concern about this part:

 

"We decided not to include an auction house because we like the idea of players having to build (and run) shops in the game. Instead, players can collect NPC shopkeepers that can be slotted into buildings to sell items at preset prices when the player is offline.

We also expect that some players will open up their personal kingdoms as “marketplaces” for other players to come and sell their goods and then take a cut out of every transaction that occurs."

 

Lets talk about the Dregs/Shadow, where there will be no imports. Well, the "Personal Kingdom Marketplaces" do us no good. NPC shopkeepers sound great, But how is that going to work? I'll reference Shadowbane, just follow me for a sec.

 

Shadowbane had the ability to "Open" your city to teleport or even repledge. This was often done for mercantile purposes. One town may be filled with profession or class trainers, while another may be filled with buildings and forges selling wares. It could be quite lucrative. They of course were open to teleport, you could teleport in and out from the runemaster at the "Tree of Life" at the center of town. These cities often became PvP hotspots, as you could kill other players and take their inventory (though no equipped items). The thing is as long as you watched track or had a scout with you, and moved fast, you could buy an item and equip it before porting out or being killed. For other items you cannot equip, some of them costing millions of gold, you would have a priest ready to "recall" you or evacuate. Point is there were ways to mitigate the risk other than bringing 10 or 20 guys to a city to browse wares.

 

None of these mechanics exist in Crowfall. There is no evacuation by recall, there is no teleporting out via runemaster. And Crowfall is full loot. So what you buy, you have a very good chance to lose upon purchase in this scenario. Which is bad if you're trying to sell things. Sometimes these merchant cities would be "camped" for hours. 

 

I'm not sure how this player driven economy is going to work, how these crafters are going to make their name, or be sought out, if everyone across the mapset has to travel to cities spread over Hell's half acre to shop at such risk. 

 

Think about it, if there was a Player built "great city" with a renowned group of crafters, I would just camp it with twenty bros for hours "gear farming" all the poor slobs that just ran 10 miles to get there! Griefing! I'll get fat until someone rolls me out! It will be glorious! But of course, bad for business if you're a crafter.

 

Shadowbane had a place, Khar Th'sekt. It was the server trade hub. It was an NPC city and a safe zone for transactions. I think something like this would be a great idea, but that's just me. Make it localized banking only. Make it where you can craft there. But largely, make it for the individual that wants to be the greatest, most renowned crafter for anyone on the server, fueling the war machine for the highest bidders. My concern is there will be no place for these "independent" crafters or a place to truly make trade flourish for mercantile guilds. 

Just my 0.02 of course.

Shhh you are going to ruin my plans!

 

This may be a issue with the mechanics that we are envisioning. We have to envision them because nothing actually exists. I am sure thats one of the things they will have to address and it will become evident during open beta for sure.

 

It may be as simple as buy the item from a vendor and then place it in player storage that access is given inside the city itself. Or just hire and stealther to do the job for you. :)

 

But as a designer that wants a more hardcore game its going to be difficult to find the balance between "This is hard make it easier so i wont lose anything" to "This is just not fun anymore im never logging in again".

Edited by Vectious

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I like the looks of it! In particular, the RnG aspect regarding resources / reagents / components - reducing recipes -  and importance of specializing in a tree. It will encourage folks to actually spend time crafting rather than waiting on passive skill training to unlock something. Experimentation means effort is required: time commitment, resources, trial & error. RnG means no guarantee of the result.

I'm not sure how you get effort required when it is almost entirely gated by time spent on passive training. The only thing a crafter needs is time spent on training and materials to use to create items. This is the issue that a lot of people have mentioned as it relates to alt account used for crafting. 

 

It is entirely feasible that a player/guild could acquire most if not all of their materials by simply hunting other harvesters and then funneling all of those materials to alt accounts to convert into usable items. This would allow them to completely bypass the harvesting portion of crafting. There is no requirement that a crafter needs to create X number of items before they can create the powerful items, all you need is skill, recipe, and materials. Two of those requirements can be achieved with nothing but time, unless they make it so that in order to "discover"/"reveal" a discipline used in crafting that it is some sort of RNG based on actually creating items. I have not seen anything that would indicate that this is the case so again, an alt account used for crafting is going to be fairly common.

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I'm not sure how you get effort required when it is almost entirely gated by time spent on passive training. The only thing a crafter needs is time spent on training and materials to use to create items. This is the issue that a lot of people have mentioned as it relates to alt account used for crafting. 

 

It is entirely feasible that a player/guild could acquire most if not all of their materials by simply hunting other harvesters and then funneling all of those materials to alt accounts to convert into usable items. This would allow them to completely bypass the harvesting portion of crafting. There is no requirement that a crafter needs to create X number of items before they can create the powerful items, all you need is skill, recipe, and materials. Two of those requirements can be achieved with nothing but time, unless they make it so that in order to "discover"/"reveal" a discipline used in crafting that it is some sort of RNG based on actually creating items. I have not seen anything that would indicate that this is the case so again, an alt account used for crafting is going to be fairly common.

Well we havent seen crafting/harvesting yet so its hard to really say. I tend to agree that second accounts will dominate the crafting. But again its based off stuff no one has had their hands in yet so its completely up in the air at the moment.

 

The only thing i can see is that if its extremely slow and time consuming and you only have 5 hours a day to play, a combat person would rather spend that entire 5 hours on fighting then spending it on a second account crafting. While a crafter is perfectly fine spending their 5 hours a day crafting items.


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i thought we can only find them in campaign worlds and created nodes to place in our EK, which would not really be cost effective ? Or do we found only low tiers one ?

I'm pretty sure you are correct, only low tier resources would be found in the EK. 


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Why would a DC have more blueprints on hand or even access to more than an Alt? Assuming anyone can look up how to create XYZ and do so with the proper build.

 

Why would a DC have more resources to work with, a higher craft skill, or specific disciplines? Anyone can obtain resources and disciplines and skill training is passive.

 

With what makes a crafter a crafter being either plug and play (disciplines/recipes) or passive (skill/recipes), it is just as hard or easy for an alt as a main to go after a particular market/item at any time.

 

Thralls and AFK shops seem to remove even the active need to market/prep for sale as well.

 

Then again, I assume a decent chunk of people will be in guild/alliances and focused on supporting their teams, not selling items for profit. This as well removes need to market to outsiders.

 

Not saying the system is totally hopeless, but still need more details/context for the full picture. Their short blurb about alts didn't seem to clear anything up and if anything the overall "revision" seemed to make alts more likely to be a valid crafting option for individuals and guilds.

I'm just saying that the dc will spend more of his time crafting than the ac, so he would likely have a better line of blueprints and better logistics

Unless his guild keeps him supplied and consumes most of his wares, but then a smart crafter will keep those blueprints available anyway.

 

I also agree with Armageddon that CW trade outside one's guild will be rarer than EK trade, with spot market effects much more extreme.


I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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I'm just saying that the dc will spend more of his time crafting than the ac, so he would likely have a better line of blueprints and better logistics

Unless his guild keeps him supplied and consumes most of his wares, but then a smart crafter will keep those blueprints available anyway.

 

I also agree with Armageddon that CW trade outside one's guild will be rarer than EK trade, with spot market effects much more extreme.

 

The markets in CW will vary wildly depending on which band you play in. Dregs/Shadow is probably going to be very restrictive in terms of crafters supplying players outside of their guild/alliance while Faction based bands will likely have pretty active trade markets which trade to a much wider range of players.

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