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Eaden

Crafting: what will make you enjoy creating an item in CF?

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Everyone in the thread: Crafting in Crowfall looks good, I liked the most recent review, I don't expect this and that from the system but I am watching other games that have something like that. <INSERT HERE a few more reasonable arguments to promote a grounded discussion>

 

Yoh: Y'all just wrong! Several non-MMORPG games have a lot of mini games and other crafting features I liked, Crowfall can have them too! Pretty much no one is asking for these features, but I want them, even if everyone else hates them, they are just WRONG and AGAINST FUN! Even though it never was in the game's concept to introduce these mechanics, the developers never promised them to us and it doesn't seem to be in line with what they have told us about crafting since kickstarter OR with their background (SWG), why can't we have engaging crafting???!!!

 

I don't think we will get anywhere.

Edited by LGAllastair

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Guild Leader/ High Elder

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Everyone in the thread: Crafting in Crowfall looks good, I liked the most recent review, I don't expect this and that from the system but I am watching other games that have something like that. <INSERT HERE a few more reasonable arguments to promote a grounded discussion>

 

Yoh: Y'all just wrong! Several non-MMORPG games have a lot of mini games and other crafting features I liked, Crowfall can have them too! Pretty much no one is asking for these features, but I want them, even if everyone else hates them, they are just WRONG and AGAINST FUN! Even though it never was in the game's concept to introduce these mechanics, the developers never promised them to us and it doesn't seem to be in line with what they have told us about crafting since kickstarter OR with their background (SWG), why can't we have engaging crafting???!!!

 

I don't think we will get anywhere.

I could come up with a witty response, but that would give you too much credit for rational thought.

But go ahead and use your emotional appeals and ad-populum fallacy if it makes you feel better.

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Ok, come up with a crafting interface that:

  • Gives players all the features Blixtev's system already will.
  • Doesn't take players out of the campaign world while crafting.
  • Won't become a repetitive grind.
  • Doesn't rely on players' twitch skill (because combat already does).
  • Is fun, engaging and related to the crafts being used by the crows.

If your crafting interface meets these simple criteria, we will support it, and ACE will probably implement it after CF launches.

Until then please hold your peace, because without it you look like you hold your piece all the time.


I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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Yeah from what little I have seen of the gathering and crafting from the Alpha 1 testers streams and videos right now it has plenty of depth and engagement for an MMO crafting system. Like said above not sure why or how anyone was expecting some kind of grand crafting sandbox game when that's not what they've been talking about at all. A crafting system that fits the game and continues the theme of risk/reward game play is what they've been talking about. and yeah so far even in its early form you can see it shaping up that way.

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While I do not plan to be a crafter (at least not at first while I'm training combat skills), I am really excited about the crafting system, it looks great. For me the enjoyment of creating an item would be the entire process and story behind that creation. For example: the materials came from a very fun POI fight I participated in with my guild against some enemy guilds, we managed to secure some resources and bring it back to our HQ. From there there was some experimentation or maybe discussion with the senior crafters about recipes and the best way to mix those mats for a weapon that perfectly suits my favorite build. The weapon is created, and from there on I intend to use it on the next big siege war to give me an edge. But ofc nothing is permament, and that means I could die, be looted and loose my uber weapon in the process. Can't wait for CWs ^^ 


 

 

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Ok, come up with a crafting interface that:

  • Gives players all the features Blixtev's system already will.
  • Doesn't take players out of the campaign world while crafting.
  • Won't become a repetitive grind.
  • Doesn't rely on players' twitch skill (because combat already does).
  • Is fun, engaging and related to the crafts being used by the crows.

If your crafting interface meets these simple criteria, we will support it, and ACE will probably implement it after CF launches.

Until then please hold your peace, because without it you look like you hold your piece all the time.

I'm not entirely sure what "Blixtev's system" is, I assume somebody has a list of mechanics they want to see.  Do you happen to have a link?

Generally agree with everything else except the idea of implementing it after launch.  I don't think that is a good idea, since you only launch once, and it's an unprecedented time to draw a lot of attention.  And if the game doesn't have the core features polished enough to where they will engage and retain that audience, what tends to happen is that a lot of people will take a look, realize the game is kind of a little boring and leave.  And most of them simply won't return.

 

Which is why I push so heavily for crafting to be engaging and deep in it's own right at launch, so that the game has a draw, a feature that no other MMO has. 

That will retain a lot of players who otherwise wouldn't be engaged by combat alone.  Do not underestimate how badly people want and enjoy deep, meaningful and engaging crafting, ie building stuff.  People really like building stuff.

 

Yeah from what little I have seen of the gathering and crafting from the Alpha 1 testers streams and videos right now it has plenty of depth and engagement for an MMO crafting system. Like said above not sure why or how anyone was expecting some kind of grand crafting sandbox game when that's not what they've been talking about at all. A crafting system that fits the game and continues the theme of risk/reward game play is what they've been talking about. and yeah so far even in its early form you can see it shaping up that way.

You must have pretty low standards if you call this 'engaging'.  It's the same damn crafting system every MMO has with additional steps.

It's a vending machine.  Get items, slot them in, press a button, get item back.  Where the hell is the engagement in that?

I realize this is still early days but come on, don't pretend it's something it isn't.  This is bare bones.

Edited by yoh

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We are built upon and function by change and improvement. That wise man is a hypocrite, as from the clothing he wore to the language coming out of his mouth, it's all been improved upon over and over from things that /weren't broke/. So unless that wise man was naked, grunting and hunting down his food with tooth and claw, I can't really agree with it. Improvement is better than not if it can actually be done within whatever limits are required.

 

But yes I do agree that engagement seems to be something to worry about with the current system, at least from a harvesting perspective. Though that is mainly because I haven't watched any streams on the actual crafting yet and I'm more of a harvester than a crafter. I do agree crafting needs it just as much, I just don't know yet how much it has.

 

But on the harvesting side I remember watching the harvester discussion youtube video Crowfall: Fly on the Wall - Harvesting and noticed in quite a few places Blair was having issues with getting some of the things Koster was getting at. Like when Koster was speaking of the rpg fantasy of a miner and how the actual player would feel they were getting better, feeling smart and progressing outside of the actual number system. This isn't necessarily a mini-game, but something outside the /click a node and stats doing rest/ thing. While Blair took it more as a raw numbers thing that the person will see that week to week they are gaining more resources each time and so getting better at harvesting. (10:55 - 13:05 for any that wants to see it)

 

I think this is an issue that's sort of starting to pop up and is part of the whole engagement discussion. Back in SW:G I loved harvesting and that's all I spent my time on, but it wasn't mainly for the fact of coming back with many resources. I enjoyed the engagement of going world to world testing what was where and in what qualities to try and find those perfect spots to place my harvesters. THAT was the actual fun part and why I enjoyed it. But now in later games with the now standard MMO harvesting of running around to random pre-named/typed nodes and clicking them while my character does an animation for a bit before gathering it is horribly boring to the point that I despise it. I went from loving harvesting in UO and SW:G to staying clear of harvesting if I could help it at all with the standard node system MMOs use now.

 

With the SW:G type I felt I got better and more dedicated to what I decided to spend my time on even outside of the stats involved, and the activity was fun enough to fill all my time with. It isn't really the case with simple node farming. As was said in the video, it's just, "rigging a slot machine in my favor", but running from node to node to let RNG do what it does isn't engaging or fun to me.

 

An example would be something like all nodes actually looking the same, but there being a sort of player skill component with say a large group of nodes that are scattered around a specific valley having rarer nodes in a specific spot within the valley (the rare node locations would change each time they were harvested). The nodes would all look the same but gathering the rarer ones yields higher tier/rarer quality resources. Then each time you harvest a node in that valley you get more/less resources the closer/further you get to those rare nodes in the area, sort of giving you a path you can follow by paying attention to what your mining returns are. 

 

So check a node on each side of the river and find the node on the west side of it giving more resources, so you know you need to start heading west to get to the rarer stuff. You continue on taking nodes and slowly figure out the rarer nodes location and bam, you just hit a nice jackpot of some high tier rare resources. It becomes something you can excel at and have fun with.

 

You can then keep the gathering of materials side (that is the larger of the two resource types that is meant to be for buildings and such) to be all Eve mining op like, where you have to sort of setup a group of gatherers and people protecting them and all that where it ends up being more of a social event than anything. Which is basically what they already seem to be doing.

 

So the larger material based harvesting is more of a social/group based event that could turn into large fights, while resource gathering is a more engaging and exploration type activity that constantly needs to be paid attention to if you want high returns, but could still do it with a friend or two or even a well coordinated group that could quickly pinpoint rare node locations by testing multiple areas and reporting back.

 

Not saying it's a perfect or even good idea, but it is an example of a system that tries to make the harvesting of resources more engaging and fun. As right now it's more of a chore.

Edited by zyerne

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An example would be something like all nodes actually looking the same, but there being a sort of player skill component with say a large group of nodes that are scattered around a specific valley having rarer nodes in a specific spot within the valley (the rare node locations would change each time they were harvested). The nodes would all look the same but gathering the rarer ones yields higher tier/rarer quality resources. Then each time you harvest a node in that valley you get more/less resources the closer/further you get to those rare nodes in the area, sort of giving you a path you can follow by paying attention to what your mining returns are. 

 

So check a node on each side of the river and find the node on the west side of it giving more resources, so you know you need to start heading west to get to the rarer stuff. You continue on taking nodes and slowly figure out the rarer nodes location and bam, you just hit a nice jackpot of some high tier rare resources. It becomes something you can excel at and have fun with.

 

I love the idea, I think we should dig it.

 

First, I suggest we keep the current rigged-in-your-favor slot machine harvesting that I personnally really like (it has an old-school arcade feeling), to which we will add the exploration side you suggest to it.

 

1 - We keep all the work done on the resource node design, as it is great and efficient.

 

2 - We setup procedurally generated "river-like" resource node locations randomly drawn on campaign maps. Where going up the stream toward the source bring you closer to rarer nodes (of the same, or similar, resource type). One source can give birth to several "rivers", going down in different directions.

 

3 - We make every nodes look the same by default, as long as a player from your party did not survey it first. Once surveyed, all your party will see the node as they appear currently in game, revealing at a glance their type and rarity. Every player could survey on a really basic level, but it would grant no buff on the node, and would take a long time, making them a potential target for roamers.

 

4 - "Survey" becomes a brand new skill tree (linked to exploration, as scouting the map should benefit both crafting and combat). It will be required higher when trying to identify rarer resources. It will also "buff" (success) or "do nothing" (failure) the node for your party depending on your "Survey" skill level (it should be similar to research points and attempts in crafting).

 

Here are other possible branches of this skill tree:

(all of these would becomes less efficient with the rarity going higher AND would be available only for the players member of your party / guild)

  • Tier 1 / Surveying: allow you to identify the type of resource node, its rarity and its quantity. Needs the use of "survey tool" (new tool !!!)
    • Tier 2 / Keen Eye: you survey faster.
    • Tier 2 / Gauge knowledge: the exploitable quantity of the identified resource is bigger when harvested.
    • Tier 2 / Natural sense: the surveyed node have a better chance to drop rare resources when harvested.
    • Tier 2 / Node knowledge: The surveyed node can be harvested faster.
      • Tier 3 / Advanced Survey: you can spot resources easily around you (resource nodes appear glowing)
        • Tier 4 / Experienced Eye: you survey even faster.
        • Tier 4 / Gauge expert: the exploitable quantity of the identified resource is even bigger when harvested.
        • Tier 4 / Gifted: the surveyed node have an even better chance to drop rare resources when harvested.
        • Tier 4 / Node expert: The surveyed node can be harvested even faster.
          • Tier 5 / Survey Expertise: you can now spot resources from afar.
            • Disciplines: would get resource-type skill trees for more precise and efficient survey of specific resources

Also, this new exploration (rather than craft / harvest) skill tree would strongly encourage harvesters and crafters to rely on different skills and go in the wild a bit more, OR obviously relying on other players to survey the best nodes for them (thus encouraging social interaction and trading), to get the best they can out of their resource streams.

 

As you can see with these few ideas Zyerne and I have just suggested, this has a GREAT POTENTIAL to be actually making sense in the game, giving explorers a new way to help their fellow teammates, while giving one more layer of depth to harvesting! :))))

Edited by Eaden

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I'm not entirely sure what "Blixtev's system" is, I assume somebody has a list of mechanics they want to see.  Do you happen to have a link?

Generally agree with everything else except the idea of implementing it after launch.  I don't think that is a good idea, since you only launch once, and it's an unprecedented time to draw a lot of attention.  And if the game doesn't have the core features polished enough to where they will engage and retain that audience, what tends to happen is that a lot of people will take a look, realize the game is kind of a little boring and leave.  And most of them simply won't return.

 

Which is why I push so heavily for crafting to be engaging and deep in it's own right at launch, so that the game has a draw, a feature that no other MMO has. 

That will retain a lot of players who otherwise wouldn't be engaged by combat alone.  Do not underestimate how badly people want and enjoy deep, meaningful and engaging crafting, ie building stuff.  People really like building stuff.

 

You must have pretty low standards if you call this 'engaging'.  It's the same damn crafting system every MMO has with additional steps.

It's a vending machine.  Get items, slot them in, press a button, get item back.  Where the hell is the engagement in that?

I realize this is still early days but come on, don't pretend it's something it isn't.  This is bare bones.

"Blixtev" is Thomas Blair's character name from Ultima Online, I believe. He's ACE's lead developer, and the expert crafting and economy dev for CF.

We're all eager to see how CF's entire crafting economy will work, so stay tuned.

Yes the system is bare bones, but you still offer no acceptable flesh to fill out the crafting or harvesting interface! 

Griping isn't enough. We all want to hear some good ideas that work inside the parameters I listed for you.

 

Mission Creep is the reason I suggest we wait to implement these amazing changes we all expect to see you post.

ACE has a very limited budget, and we need them to publish and launch CF, so that it generates a profit ASAP.

Adding features will just slow down development and undermine confidence. CF can only be good if ACE can stay in business to administer it.


I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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You must have pretty low standards if you call this 'engaging'.  It's the same damn crafting system every MMO has with additional steps.

It's a vending machine.  Get items, slot them in, press a button, get item back.  Where the hell is the engagement in that?

I realize this is still early days but come on, don't pretend it's something it isn't.  This is bare bones.

 

Of course its bare bones, its in an early state like I said in the post you quoted... The engagement comes in with the risk/reward game play of the gathering and the experimentation aspects of the crafting process. Will have to be wary when gathering and when transporting resources to craft and different materials make different stats and effects and such when combined.  

 

Still trying to figure out why would think this game should have some kind of brand new revolutionary crafting system, when its not what they've been talking about at all. A crafting system that fits the theme and concept of the rest of the game is what they've been talking about.

 

This games isn't actually about building stuff, or rather we can build stuff ie castles and its about knocking them down and fighting over the spoils. Its fine if you want that revolutionary crafting system, but honestly you're barking up the wrong tree so to speak

Edited by pang

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As you can see with these few ideas Zyerne and I have just suggested, this has a GREAT POTENTIAL to be actually making sense in the game, giving explorers a new way to help their fellow teammates, while giving one more layer of depth to harvesting! :))))

 

I love it honestly, one or two of the ideas are more formed ones I was tossing around while thinking about it as well. I think something like that would go a long way toward making harvesting and exploration a valid and entertaining gamestyle someone could spend all their time on, much like combat and crafting. The auto world generator needing to handle the node rivers would likely be where most of the word would be needed. Rest seems like simple checks and the like.

 

But this or something with the same sort of feel would instantly make me a harvester main again and put head cracking as something I do to defend my resources and or take important node river locations from others nearby. Cause sadly as of now harvesting would just be a side thing if I can even have the skills without it messing with other more important skills, as running from slot machine to slot machine without something else engaging me constantly is just boring. The kind of activity you might toss some music on and do for an hour or two when you have netflix up on another monitor or something, but not something that could act as it's own style of play like it could in SWG or UO.

 

Amusing Side-Note: This kind of thing would turn me, a generally PvP centric player into more of a soft-target for other PvPers, which is something games like these need to keep the world interesting for both sides. Those pirates/bandits/whatever looking around for targets to bring down for loot benefit as there are more soft targets out about in a lively world because these other activities are actually entertaining to do, and people enjoying a different style of play outside skull crushing benefit from more engaging activities that also have that added entertainment of that bandit/pirates/whatever possibly over every horizon. We need these side things (including crafting) to be entertaining and engaging to keep the world actually living and breathing.

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Since we've switched gears into a discussion on harvesting I'll weigh in.

First, not terribly impressed with what has been shown so far for most of the same reasons I've already given on crafting, and this node based approach has been shown to be exceedingly boring.  Period.

 

I am in agreement with people here where I think 'Discovery' should be a central element to harvesting.  That it's about know how and where to look, then being able to get at it safely and get out with your haul.

 

 

My particular favorite harvesting games in terms of gameplay are the ever popular Minecraft, Terraria and Starbound.

Which has a key difference in which instead of being preset nodes strewn about, it instead had everything be a resource.  Instead of collecting stone from a stone node, you just find rocks in the environment and harvest them.  From water to ores, trees and plants, even the dirt underneath your feet.  

Everything is simply collectible, and everything has it's usages.  Although somethings are more valuable then others.

 

Which is why the 2nd thing that I love is that it puts ores in the context of spelunking, of diving deep underground searching for you rewards, avoiding hazards and overcoming obstacles, as well as the occasional enemy.  Which does a lot to make the very process of gathering far more engaging.

 

 

The only thing I think that this could use some improvement on is to make it partially a more directed experience.  When generally speaking resources are spread out evenly, but occasionally you will have your points of interest, resource hubs that have a lot of a given resource.  Like a mine for ores, or a forest for trees, a lake for water (and the treasures it contains).

 

And with the voxal system the game has it could absolutely do this.

It would be far in a way more engaging then just walking up to nodes and standing still for a minute.

(another pro of this system is since resources are everywhere, your constantly on the move.)

 

 

The node system is also a very 'gamey' immersion breaking sort of mechanic, like why would I have to go to a designated well to get water, when there is a lake or a river just over there?  Why am I harvesting from this stone node while on top of a mountain?   And why are only some of these trees in this forest harvestable?

It just makes no sense when you think about it.  On top of being no fun.

 

So the example I gave is also far in a way more immersive to boot.

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I love it honestly, one or two of the ideas are more formed ones I was tossing around while thinking about it as well. I think something like that would go a long way toward making harvesting and exploration a valid and entertaining gamestyle someone could spend all their time on, much like combat and crafting. The auto world generator needing to handle the node rivers would likely be where most of the word would be needed. Rest seems like simple checks and the like.

 

I suggest we bring the idea in the suggestion topic under a more explicit title. I am sure the idea has legs, and I don't want it lost in the middle of arguments about crafting and harvesting, and how it is currently good or bad.

 

Edit: It is posted, the idea is out! Have a look here (PM me Zyerne if you want me to make some correction): Click here

Edited by Eaden

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Yeah, I'm done.

Just got finished with watching the uploaded stream of the crafting system, and it was exactly as I expected.  Utter garbage.

I had zero expectations going into this, and that's evidently exactly what I got.  And whole lot of hot air and bluster over nothing, it's exactly the same mechanics as every other vending machine crafting system I've ever bloody seen from this industry, but with more steps.  Depth without engaging is largely pointless, as you won't experience any of it if you get bored 5mins in.

 

All born from the same old tired mindset I always see from these hacks, of only ever taking inspiration from MMO genre, the most stagnant and risk adverse genre there is.  And it leads to the same tired old results, boring ass gameplay. (in regards to non combat)

There wasn't even a single hint that they were even open to the idea of doing more then that, of actually making crafting remotely engaging.  And it was that, that there was no promising future that broke the camels back for me.

 

 

And I'm tired of making excuses for them, waiting for them to pull their head out of their ass.  It's just too easy to do the same old things and pretend as if it's new and exciting.  And it isn't just crafting, it's harvesting too, and these are indicative of non combat as a whole.

That they have absolutely zero interest in changing or adding any new mechanics that would make any of it remotely engaging. Their putting all their eggs into the combat basket like every other MMO sandbox studio I've ever seen.   And I expect the exact same tepid results.

Lackluster combat, big empty world with nothing interesting to do because they didn't spend any time making anything else engaging.  Same old crap, new skin.

 

Which begs the question, why was it even crowdfunded in the first place if all they were just going to make the same game as if they were under a publisher or investor?  Sounds like a scam just to weasel more money out of people if you ask me.

 

 

Well, I'm not interesting in another soulless sandbox, and I sure am hell not giving you any more money because you clearly haven't deserved it.

I'll eat my crow if it turns they take a major change in direction after this, but I'm not counting on it.  But I am certainly not going to stick around and continue to make arguments for my position because I've already said everything that needed to be and so as a lot of people, and it that doesn't sway them, nothing will.

 

It's futile to talk to people who aren't listening.  And based on these results, they aren't at all.

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DEDICATED TO YOH

 

Yeah, I'm done.

[...]

It's futile to talk to people who aren't listening.  And based on these results, they aren't at all.

 

The thing is, I took the time to read again all your posts in this topic, and I could not help but notice this.

 

In a topic about what you wish a good crafting experience would be for CF, and in which you posted half a dozen times blocs of answers, the only actual suggestion you made (sort of) was:
 

I'd take a rhythm game like DDR, or an eye hand coordination game like Cooking Mama, even a match 3 game like Adventure Quest.

 

You spent the rest of your time ranting and argumenting with other people's ideas.

 

This topic was supposed to bring up fresh ideas to ACE. Either they implement them one day or not. You turned it into oblivion.

 

As it is indeed futile to talk when people are not listening (nobody likes staying around bitter people), and you are disappointed with the direction CF is taking, rather than bringing everyone down with you, I suggest you take a walk.

 

And farewell.

Edited by Eaden

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So the only way to make crafting engaging is to create a required overlay that is not remotely connected to crafting? Then it is not even about crafting anymore. 

 

Crafting should be engaging in itself. Whether its exploring the system, what can you even make, getting to know the system, what would be good to make and the intricacies of the system, when is something good. The meta of the crafting system, if you will. The crafting will be good and engaging when you have niche items that become good or bad depending on situations. Weapons that become better if you fight certain opponents and armor that will be resisting certain weapons. The good crafter will get information about a target and know what types of equipment would be good for the task. Players will use new types of armor and weapons all the time, as the most prevalent builds will start to be countered. In this system, Crafting (and therefore also harvesting) is deeply intertwined with both combat and intelligence of the campaign worlds. The system needs to be deep enough to allow such things and then you have an engaging crafting system. 


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Yeah, I'm done.

Just got finished with watching the uploaded stream of the crafting system, and it was exactly as I expected.  Utter garbage.

...

 

Bye bye. Have fun at Harvest Moon Online. 

 

Back on topic, I'm excited by what I've seen of BW so far. Every single tree and rock on the map can be harvested, they aren't just decoration. The crafting looks to be so complex and deep. I've seen some complaints from people who think it's actually a bit too much, to the point you need tons of mats and multiple side steps in order to make a set of basic armor for example. I don't have an opinion on that yet, but I guess exact numbers can be adjusted later. Also we have to keep in mind harvesting and gearing up your guildies will replace the traditional mob farming and xp grinding of other MMOs. And I do love the amount of customization you can put on items, it is near infinite. For players who are into this, you can spend entire days just trying to get that perfect sword blueprint... provided you have the mats to experiment on, ofc. 

 

Regarding zyerne and Eaden's discussion on player knowledge and exploration influencing harvesting, I believe at least exploration will be a factor in it. At least on the crafting stream, you couldn't immediately differentiate the 10 different "grades" of nodes of the same kind, so it will require some prior exploration. Not to mention locating the best POIs on the map at the beginning of a campaign, etc. I believe the randomly generated maps might be a problem with the idea of map knowledge being key in guessing where each quality of node would be more commonly found though, not sure. 


 

 

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