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Eaden

Crafting: what will make you enjoy creating an item in CF?

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I'm not entirely sure what "Blixtev's system" is, I assume somebody has a list of mechanics they want to see.  Do you happen to have a link?

Generally agree with everything else except the idea of implementing it after launch.  I don't think that is a good idea, since you only launch once, and it's an unprecedented time to draw a lot of attention.  And if the game doesn't have the core features polished enough to where they will engage and retain that audience, what tends to happen is that a lot of people will take a look, realize the game is kind of a little boring and leave.  And most of them simply won't return.

 

Which is why I push so heavily for crafting to be engaging and deep in it's own right at launch, so that the game has a draw, a feature that no other MMO has. 

That will retain a lot of players who otherwise wouldn't be engaged by combat alone.  Do not underestimate how badly people want and enjoy deep, meaningful and engaging crafting, ie building stuff.  People really like building stuff.

 

You must have pretty low standards if you call this 'engaging'.  It's the same damn crafting system every MMO has with additional steps.

It's a vending machine.  Get items, slot them in, press a button, get item back.  Where the hell is the engagement in that?

I realize this is still early days but come on, don't pretend it's something it isn't.  This is bare bones.

exact type posts we saw in SWG early days

 

non-crafters or otherwise shallow minds not ready to explore the researching didn't understand the complexity of the crafting in SWG and it was great for those of us who did

 

they were the ones who paid extra millions of creds for that extra 0.05 damage that server-best weapon did over the server second-best weapon

 

yoh, do you feel lonely as the only crowfall backer asking for crafting minigames?

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yoh, do you feel lonely as the only crowfall backer asking for crafting minigames?

 

That is a pretty broad statement :)  I for one loved Vanguard crafting more than SWG.

 

Right now the system is more about getting lucky in RNG than any other factor. Without mass stacking of one stat in all stages you end up very small changes to the base character even when making Purple or Orange grade items.

 

Now I fully realize that it is still being fleshed out and stats are likely to change but for the most part its going to come down to how lucky you get with RNG.  You may be happy with this and want some sort of factory stamping out the same product forever. I however would like the results to be due to my actions and not a dice throw.

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That is a pretty broad statement :)  I for one loved Vanguard crafting more than SWG.

 

Right now the system is more about getting lucky in RNG than any other factor. Without mass stacking of one stat in all stages you end up very small changes to the base character even when making Purple or Orange grade items.

 

Now I fully realize that it is still being fleshed out and stats are likely to change but for the most part its going to come down to how lucky you get with RNG.  You may be happy with this and want some sort of factory stamping out the same product forever. I however would like the results to be due to my actions and not a dice throw.

 

They are testing extremes at the moment. The idea is to show the difference between low level + low rarity against high level + high rarity. Reason why it may appear so random.

 

When you will spend hours of training the skills, while getting better gear, to be able to spend hours of better harvesting, in this long run, the RNG will only add some spice to the process, but just a small extra to the nunbers.

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So the issue we're having... as I see it.

 

Some folks (such as myself) don't necessarily want a mini-game, unless it can be of a skill that all players can use.

 

Some folks are feeling that the current feel of the crafting system is leaning far too much towards rng, and far too little to game engagement and player skill. The only suggestions so far for that skill has been a mini-game.

 

As there don't seem to be a lot of suggestions as to what might be preferable, I have been trying to think of options, and whilst it'll not be great, it' the only one I've come up with so far.

 

Can crafting not be made more like poker?

 

Ie, how you deal with the cards you get dealt is a skill, if your hand is a good one it's a simpler choice, (you're in a much lower risk position to begin with, but you're also much less likely to win a huge amount unless you take risks and bluff etc)  but if your cards poor, being able to positively influence the outcome by all your choices  is much more engaging and fascinating for players.

 

Please don't give us such extreme rng all the way through for crafting. . . . unless we choose it.

 

Each stage of crafting should ask us to make a decision as to how we wish to continue with the next. (This'd both answer Yoh's engagement issue, and answer my physical disabilities issue)

 

Two choices. 

An 'easy' choice.

One that's low risk, but with a better chance of positive results, but also nothing better than average products made. (So players such as myself can still craft without being locked out by my physical shortcomings) Skip a game, just put your components in, press a button, get a quick result.

 

A difficult/more engaging choice, that's higher risk, but has a greater range of results from total failure to superb crafted products.

 

Low risk = Choose not to play a mini-game of skill

High risk = Choose to play a mini game of skill against the rng of the computer (such as poker etc against the system)

 

So taking the low risk choice, crafting with <='good' ingredient's will almost always result in <='good' results.

 

But taking a high risk choice, well that then means that you could get total failure, total destruction of everything you've worked so hard to gather and craft up until this point, but it also means that you could gain an end product that people would hunt you down to acquire.

 

It could be that this IS the current system.

 

That by using poor quality ingredients gives you a better chance of a surprise result, but without confirmation that this is the case at the moment it does just feel like... click, click, place ingredients in, the choice of what you've put in doesn't make much difference to the RNG outcome.

 

This could just be total waffle and a piffling idea, so I don't mind if you tell me it's total rubbish

I don't mind being told that given the current system it'd be too much hassle / un-necessary to implement.

Edited by Mother_Fable

Ex-Member of :   Lf6MJUL.png  Re-applying soon!


 

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It could be that this IS the current system.

 

That by using poor quality ingredients gives you a better chance of a surprise result, but without confirmation that this is the case at the moment it does just feel like... click, click, place ingredients in, the choice of what you've put in doesn't make much difference to the RNG outcome.

 

This could just be total waffle and a piffling idea, so I don't mind if you tell me it's total rubbish

I don't mind being told that given the current system it'd be too much hassle / un-necessary to implement.

 

I am ok with there being a lower risk lower reward system. The system that Vanguard used allowed for very low risk low reward outputs as well as higher risk high reward ones. 

 

Right now as crafting stands (and by my guess we do not even have half the system in place yet) there are two major parts to crafting.

 

First is the basic item with basic stats based off materials you have chosen. Second is experimentation where you can possibly enhance the stats of the item in question. 

 

The first stage basic craft could very well be made the least risk path with nothing more than clicking a button as well as including the possibility for mass production (which would cause us to skip the next phase unless using a blueprint perhaps).

 

The experimental stage could be a more engaging process with interaction by the crafter which gear, skill, and choices can improve upon. It does not need to be some elaborate "game" cause frankly even in EQ2 many people just used macro programs to automate through. Once again it can be a choose your own risk which can allow people unable to do higher difficulties for whatever reason a chance to get something better than the standard model. 

 

The general idea is to at least have something where something more than raw chance comes into play. Lady Luck does not like me in fact I think she has an active hatred for me. If something happens once every three tries then it will take me ten or more to get the same results :)

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So the issue we're having... as I see it.

 

Some folks (such as myself) don't necessarily want a mini-game, unless it can be of a skill that all players can use.

 

Some folks are feeling that the current feel of the crafting system is leaning far too much towards rng, and far too little to game engagement and player skill. The only suggestions so far for that skill has been a mini-game.

 

As there don't seem to be a lot of suggestions as to what might be preferable, I have been trying to think of options, and whilst it'll not be great, it' the only one I've come up with so far.

 

Can crafting not be made more like poker?

 

Ie, how you deal with the cards you get dealt is a skill, if your hand is a good one it's a simpler choice, (you're in a much lower risk position to begin with, but you're also much less likely to win a huge amount unless you take risks and bluff etc)  but if your cards poor, being able to positively influence the outcome by all your choices  is much more engaging and fascinating for players.

 

Please don't give us such extreme rng all the way through for crafting. . . . unless we choose it.

 

Each stage of crafting should ask us to make a decision as to how we wish to continue with the next. (This'd both answer Yoh's engagement issue, and answer my physical disabilities issue)

 

Two choices. 

An 'easy' choice.

One that's low risk, but with a better chance of positive results, but also nothing better than average products made. (So players such as myself can still craft without being locked out by my physical shortcomings) Skip a game, just put your components in, press a button, get a quick result.

 

A difficult/more engaging choice, that's higher risk, but has a greater range of results from total failure to superb crafted products.

 

Low risk = Choose not to play a mini-game of skill

High risk = Choose to play a mini game of skill against the rng of the computer (such as poker etc against the system)

 

So taking the low risk choice, crafting with <='good' ingredient's will almost always result in <='good' results.

 

But taking a high risk choice, well that then means that you could get total failure, total destruction of everything you've worked so hard to gather and craft up until this point, but it also means that you could gain an end product that people would hunt you down to acquire.

 

It could be that this IS the current system.

 

That by using poor quality ingredients gives you a better chance of a surprise result, but without confirmation that this is the case at the moment it does just feel like... click, click, place ingredients in, the choice of what you've put in doesn't make much difference to the RNG outcome.

 

This could just be total waffle and a piffling idea, so I don't mind if you tell me it's total rubbish

I don't mind being told that given the current system it'd be too much hassle / un-necessary to implement.

It kind of does work like that though. For every recipe we have we can put various type of mats and additives in them. So if you put low level and no additive in it you get a low tier item. The better the mats you use the better the item. Also with some items it takes several components and each of those components can be made with varying quality and lvl of mats. So yeah there's is still some RNG but it starts with what type of mats you use to create that item.

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We have to remember its only partially implemented at the moment. Its been stated that the only time the player will be doing the type of crafting we are currently testing is when they are wanting to experiment for really good gear.

 

However, i fully agree the quality of material and RNG relation needs a little bit of work.

 

Unfortunately, if i get a great result using legendary material its expected. The material was insanely hard to get my hands on. However if i end up getting junk via RNG, its devastating. Also, the great result doesn't feel 'great' in the current implementation.

 

But its the first pass at it, i foresee great things. 


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Everyone in the thread: Crafting in Crowfall looks good, I liked the most recent review, I don't expect this and that from the system but I am watching other games that have something like that. <INSERT HERE a few more reasonable arguments to promote a grounded discussion>

 

Yoh: Y'all just wrong! Several non-MMORPG games have a lot of mini games and other crafting features I liked, Crowfall can have them too! Pretty much no one is asking for these features, but I want them, even if everyone else hates them, they are just WRONG and AGAINST FUN! Even though it never was in the game's concept to introduce these mechanics, the developers never promised them to us and it doesn't seem to be in line with what they have told us about crafting since kickstarter OR with their background (SWG), why can't we have engaging crafting???!!!

 

I don't think we will get anywhere.

 

I have used this EXACT crafting system before and it is the best hands down of all the iterations of crafting in all titles to date. This is my opinion of course but I have good taste so I feel comfortable with my stance.


 

THE CORRUPT FEAR  | THE HONEST SUPPORT  | THE HEROIC JOIN 

 

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For the record :)  We did kill a Dev over the weekend of testing who dropped resources not available directly in test as well as grade of Purple and Orange. The resulting crafts where perhaps better if you looked out to the third decimal place. 

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For the record :)  We did kill a Dev over the weekend of testing who dropped resources not available directly in test as well as grade of Purple and Orange. The resulting crafts where perhaps better if you looked out to the third decimal place. 

Hahahaha, i get it.


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It kind of does work like that though. For every recipe we have we can put various type of mats and additives in them. So if you put low level and no additive in it you get a low tier item. The better the mats you use the better the item. Also with some items it takes several components and each of those components can be made with varying quality and lvl of mats. So yeah there's is still some RNG but it starts with what type of mats you use to create that it

 

 

Not quite what I was getting at. It's lacking a way to participate / use your own skill to interact with it. It's all rng right now.

Edited by Mother_Fable

Ex-Member of :   Lf6MJUL.png  Re-applying soon!


 

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Not quite what I was getting at. It's lacking a way to participate / use your own skill to interact with it. It's all rng right now.

 

Not entirely true. You make decisions during the experimentation stage that influence that RNG. You can "press your luck" by putting all your experimentation points in at once, or you can go for a more conservative approach and put them in one (or a few) at a time. Pressing your luck can result in higher stats, but is more likely to fail and get no bonus.

Edited by Jah

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I'm going to take a stab all free-form like at some brain bubbles I have regarding crafting from other games.  Caveat:  I'm not criticizing anything currently underway.

 

Just open-ended thinking:

 

I see two aspects to Crafting overall.  1)  How it works (rng, no rng, UI, steps and methods, etc.)  , 2)  How useful / valued is the output.

 

Under #1 Crafting should be more, as opposed to less, engaging and interesting (whatever that means), without injection of tedium for tedium's sake.  Under #2 I feel it's important that outputs are ALWAYS of value regardless of tier of item (e.g, low level mats that new players craft always have a maintained value to veteran players, instead of dissipating because top-tier items don't require any lower level mats).

 

I've played games where, as a new player, I was encouraged and happy/satisfied in working "the grind" . . . because my first attempts at crafting, even if just materials output (e.g. copper Ingots from copper ore) had value, sold, had a use to the community.  Nothing turns me off "making stuff" faster than making stuff no one values.  It turns into an empty exercise for me no matter the goal waaaaaaaayyyy out there at the end of the grind.

 

Crafting should be interesting and varied:

 

RNG (without excess),

Dye/coloring options (both the primary color and trim or secondary coloring),

Ability to apply custom skins to a given item based on another in-game item, possibly glowy/special effects based on application of enchantments or tier of weapon, possibility for high quality procs versus standard quality,

As already stated:  low level materials (generally) should still have ties to tip tier items so that there's a connect between both ends of the community - newb vs end gamer/vet.  

 

Posibilities:

 

Research & Development & Discovery:

 

"Farmville" sucks from the perspective there's no DISCOVERY anymore.  It's a cookie-cutter, mapped out, quantified routine.  Many crafting systems are like this:  You basically have recipe books, and you churn your way through pre-known, Betty Crocker supplied, lists.  Possibility: What if there was a way to structure a mode of DISCOVERY within the crafting system?  At the highest level this is a tie to some form of research and testing dynamic looking to see what results occur.  This could be about anything, but taking IRL examples I suppose:  New alloys, new armor types or improvements (making something up:  Welded chain-loop mail instead of open loop).  Maybe identification of what woods make the best arrows, or bows, what woods are the worst?  

 

Introduction of actual game-play skill for certain crafting tasks. Bear with me here, I'm not entirely sure this is a good idea, but something that did come to mind:

 

The analogy is a similar dynamic seen in some of the better Fishing systems in games such as Vanguard and Archeage.  Taking the Archeage example Fishing was NOT pick a bait, cast the line, wait for the fish to hit, and click pull it in.  What they implemented was an actual competition between you and the fish you managed to hook:  You had to match directional moves with the fish, time reel-ins, etc.

 

I thought it was clever, and a step-out-of-the-typical box for Fishing.  Someone had a goal to package the act of casting a line with a bait, then how to hook the fish, and then how to compete with a fighting / running fish to see who won:  Fish throws the hook, or is reeled in.

 

Relevance here (or not, I'm not sure about this one as I said):  Woodworking requires things like sawing, planing, shaping.  Metal smithing requires things like heating metal (to the proper temperature - dull red / cherry red / bright orange / bright yellow, etc.), then hammering, then quenching.  What if there was a way to "package" some (not all, but perhaps key points) of the tasks involved in item manufacture into some kind of interactive dynamic between you, your tool(s), the material, and what's being done with it?

 

Anyway, I really want to see more of what they are cooking up.  T. Blair seems enthused about what they have coming.

 

My biggest thing is that there should be extensive cross-linking between items/mats to maintain value for items, and a crafting system itself that is flexible and interesting.

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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I'm going to take a stab all free-form like at some brain bubbles I have regarding crafting from other games.  Caveat:  I'm not criticizing anything currently underway.

 

Just open-ended talking based on past experiences, likes and dislikes, and current ponderings:

 

I see two aspects to Crafting overall.  It's the way my brain is wired on this:  1)  How it works (rng, no rng, UI, steps and methods, etc.)  , 2)  How useful / valued is the output.

 

 

This is generally how most see it. 

 

I've made this statement on Unoffical Discord chat, Crafting and Player Economy are going to be the make or break line for this game. There are many niche pvp options out there and that is the thing that really sets this game apart for the long run.

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This is generally how most see it. 

 

I've made this statement on Unoffical Discord chat, Crafting and Player Economy are going to be the make or break line for this game. There are many niche pvp options out there and that is the thing that really sets this game apart for the long run.

 

I would generally agree with this, but for me personally it's more like:

 

The SYNERGY between Crafting/Economy/EKs and the CWs.  That's what struck me in the original videos I watched.  That whole idea of full-out PvP combat in the CWs coupled to "peace time" dynamics and building out in the EKs, and interaction in the community economy.  The whole crafting development and buy/sell thing.

 

I mean, once explained it seems so simple.  But that's the beauty of the concept:  Such a brilliant idea with so very many possibilities.

 

I think in an earlier post some time ago I made a "passionate" statement regarding how we want the "PvE" side to be an enthralling as the PvP side, because they are so tied together.  But that's said with a very particular intent: 

 

CF isn't intented to be a PvE game with PvP tacked on.  I'm not talking PvE quests and character progression, per se.  Anything "PvE" added to the game should, by intent and design, support/motivate people to participate in the CWs.  Probably a good example of what I mean by "PvE" stuff is:  Crafting.  Right?  No one argues that when you are Crafting you aren't engaging in PvP, because of course you aren't.  But that implementation slip-fits into the model for CF right-cleanly.

 

Anyway, I would say Crafting / Economy / Building is a peer level importance with Combat, not subordinate.  Combat has to be pleasing, or at least not clunky, there's no way around that, but at the end of the day I agree with you.  It falls into the same idea articulated by another poster, which I forget the name of atm.  His/her thought, in a different thread, went something like:

 

Combat is just something we do.  It's not the goal itself.  What motivates us and gives more meaning to Combat is WHY we are doing it.  Objectives, capture or defense of something, successfully escorting goods somewhere.  While Combat is something we do and can be a rush of course, it's always in service to a goal.

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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