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Eaden

Making harvesting an immersive and rewarding adventure

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Hi everyone,
 
I would like to bring to your eyes some ideas Zyerne and I have been tossing around in another topic. These are two long posts, but I think they are well worth a couple minute of reading, and some feedback! What do you guys think?
 

But on the harvesting side I remember watching the harvester discussion youtube video Crowfall: Fly on the Wall - Harvesting and noticed in quite a few places Blair was having issues with getting some of the things Koster was getting at. Like when Koster was speaking of the rpg fantasy of a miner and how the actual player would feel they were getting better, feeling smart and progressing outside of the actual number system. This isn't necessarily a mini-game, but something outside the /click a node and stats doing rest/ thing. While Blair took it more as a raw numbers thing that the person will see that week to week they are gaining more resources each time and so getting better at harvesting. (10:55 - 13:05 for any that wants to see it)

I think this is an issue that's sort of starting to pop up and is part of the whole engagement discussion. Back in SW:G I loved harvesting and that's all I spent my time on, but it wasn't mainly for the fact of coming back with many resources. I enjoyed the engagement of going world to world testing what was where and in what qualities to try and find those perfect spots to place my harvesters. THAT was the actual fun part and why I enjoyed it. But now in later games with the now standard MMO harvesting of running around to random pre-named/typed nodes and clicking them while my character does an animation for a bit before gathering it is horribly boring to the point that I despise it. I went from loving harvesting in UO and SW:G to staying clear of harvesting if I could help it at all with the standard node system MMOs use now.

With the SW:G type I felt I got better and more dedicated to what I decided to spend my time on even outside of the stats involved, and the activity was fun enough to fill all my time with. It isn't really the case with simple node farming. As was said in the video, it's just, "rigging a slot machine in my favor", but running from node to node to let RNG do what it does isn't engaging or fun to me.

An example would be something like all nodes actually looking the same, but there being a sort of player skill component with say a large group of nodes that are scattered around a specific valley having rarer nodes in a specific spot within the valley (the rare node locations would change each time they were harvested). The nodes would all look the same but gathering the rarer ones yields higher tier/rarer quality resources. Then each time you harvest a node in that valley you get more/less resources the closer/further you get to those rare nodes in the area, sort of giving you a path you can follow by paying attention to what your mining returns are.

So check a node on each side of the river and find the node on the west side of it giving more resources, so you know you need to start heading west to get to the rarer stuff. You continue on taking nodes and slowly figure out the rarer nodes location and bam, you just hit a nice jackpot of some high tier rare resources. It becomes something you can excel at and have fun with.

You can then keep the gathering of materials side (that is the larger of the two resource types that is meant to be for buildings and such) to be all Eve mining op like, where you have to sort of setup a group of gatherers and people protecting them and all that where it ends up being more of a social event than anything. Which is basically what they already seem to be doing.

So the larger material based harvesting is more of a social/group based event that could turn into large fights, while resource gathering is a more engaging and exploration type activity that constantly needs to be paid attention to if you want high returns, but could still do it with a friend or two or even a well coordinated group that could quickly pinpoint rare node locations by testing multiple areas and reporting back.

Not saying it's a perfect or even good idea, but it is an example of a system that tries to make the harvesting of resources more engaging and fun. As right now it's more of a chore.

 

To which I answered:
 

I love the idea, I think we should dig it.

First, I suggest we keep the current rigged-in-your-favor slot machine harvesting that I personnally really like (it has an old-school arcade feeling), to which we will add the exploration side you suggest to it.

1 - We keep all the work done on the resource node design, as it is great and efficient.

2 - We setup procedurally generated "river-like" resource node locations randomly drawn on campaign maps. Where going up the stream toward the source bring you closer to rarer nodes (of the same, or similar, resource type). One source can give birth to several "rivers", going down in different directions.

3 - We make every nodes look the same by default, as long as a player from your party did not survey it first. Once surveyed, all your party will see the node as they appear currently in game, revealing at a glance their type and rarity. Every player could survey on a really basic level, but it would grant no buff on the node, and would take a long time, making them a potential target for roamers.

4 - "Survey" becomes a brand new skill tree (linked to exploration, as scouting the map should benefit both crafting and combat). It will be required higher when trying to identify rarer resources. It will also "buff" (success) or "do nothing" (failure) the node for your party depending on your "Survey" skill level (it should be similar to research points and attempts in crafting).

Here are other possible branches of this skill tree:
(all of these would becomes less efficient with the rarity going higher AND would be available only for the players member of your party / guild)

  • Tier 1 / Surveying: allow you to identify the type of resource node, its rarity and its quantity. Needs the use of "survey tool" (new tool !!!)
    • Tier 2 / Keen Eye: you survey faster.
    • Tier 2 / Gauge knowledge: the exploitable quantity of the identified resource is bigger when harvested.
    • Tier 2 / Natural sense: the surveyed node have a better chance to drop rare resources when harvested.
    • Tier 2 / Node knowledge: The surveyed node can be harvested faster.
      • Tier 3 / Advanced Survey: you can spot resources easily around you (resource nodes appear glowing)
        • Tier 4 / Experienced Eye: you survey even faster.
        • Tier 4 / Gauge expert: the exploitable quantity of the identified resource is even bigger when harvested.
        • Tier 4 / Gifted: the surveyed node have an even better chance to drop rare resources when harvested.
        • Tier 4 / Node expert: The surveyed node can be harvested even faster.
          • Tier 5 / Survey Expertise: you can now spot resources from afar.
            • Disciplines: would get resource-type skill trees for more precise and efficient survey of specific resources
Also, this new exploration (rather than craft / harvest) skill tree would strongly encourage harvesters and crafters to rely on different skills and go in the wild a bit more, OR obviously relying on other players to survey the best nodes for them (thus encouraging social interaction and trading), to get the best they can out of their resource streams.

As you can see with these few ideas Zyerne and I have just suggested, this has a GREAT POTENTIAL to be actually making sense in the game, giving explorers a new way to help their fellow teammates, while giving one more layer of depth to harvesting! :))))

 

So here it is, the harvesting adventure where true explorers can also make a difference.

 

Our 2 cents,

 

Eaden and Zyerne

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Nice suggestions in both posts. Might be hard to implement currently though (would be awesome if it was implemented :) ). So here is what i brainstormed as i watched the video.

I've read trough the posts and watched the video and i agree that long term harvesting needs something extra to motivate players to keep doing it. As it stands currently i feel it lacks some on-the-spot decisions a player has to make, that somehow affect the outcome of the harvesting mechanic. Crafters have all sorts of decisions to make while crafting, where a harvester runs up to the node and hopes he isn't killed, or when grouping up just whacks on the node and prays to RNG. But what separates a good harvester from a bad one? (besides the passive skill gain)

 

What i think would make a good addition to the current system would be to add a hidden attribute to the nodes, and about 3 different attributes to the harvesting tools. To give an example:

Lets say you can pick between 4 pickaxes when you decide to harvest an ore node. A normal one, one that has an attribute called say FINE and 2 others with BLUNT and SHARP values somehow added to them (enchanting, crafting or something else). The nodes would be 'sensitive' to a single type of tool. When you first came up to the node you would have to experiment with the different tools to see which type of tool the node is sensitive to (a different mining sound to indicate it  would be cool). If the correct tool was applied the node could produce more gems or more loot in general or some such. So when you first entered a new world, your task as a good harvester would be to map out the vulnerabilities of surrounding nodes, which adds a bit of exploration to the mix.

So that's my take on harvesting, let me know what you think.

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On 11/1/2016 at 5:27 AM, Eaden said:

4 - "Survey" becomes a brand new skill tree (linked to exploration, as scouting the map should benefit both crafting and combat). It will be required higher when trying to identify rarer resources. It will also "buff" (success) or "do nothing" (failure) the node for your party depending on your "Survey" skill level (it should be similar to research points and attempts in crafting).

Here are other possible branches of this skill tree:
(all of these would becomes less efficient with the rarity going higher AND would be available only for the players member of your party / guild)

  • Tier 1 / Surveying: allow you to identify the type of resource node, its rarity and its quantity. Needs the use of "survey tool" (new tool !!!)
    • Tier 2 / Keen Eye: you survey faster.
    • Tier 2 / Gauge knowledge: the exploitable quantity of the identified resource is bigger when harvested.
    • Tier 2 / Natural sense: the surveyed node have a better chance to drop rare resources when harvested.
    • Tier 2 / Node knowledge: The surveyed node can be harvested faster.
      • Tier 3 / Advanced Survey: you can spot resources easily around you (resource nodes appear glowing)
        • Tier 4 / Experienced Eye: you survey even faster.
        • Tier 4 / Gauge expert: the exploitable quantity of the identified resource is even bigger when harvested.
        • Tier 4 / Gifted: the surveyed node have an even better chance to drop rare resources when harvested.
        • Tier 4 / Node expert: The surveyed node can be harvested even faster.
          • Tier 5 / Survey Expertise: you can now spot resources from afar.
            • Disciplines: would get resource-type skill trees for more precise and efficient survey of specific resources

I dislike this. This isn't improving the gathering game, and it would be messy to implement. At worst, in the most guilds, a surveyor is just another person needed in a gathering party, taking a gander at all of the nodes before anyone touches them. That's not improving gathering. That's just adding another step to the process. It also just penalizes new players, where the margin between a skilled gatherer and an unskilled one gets bigger and bigger, and in an economic game, margins are essential. I feel that gathering already benefits high skill players too much, and has too big of a barrier of entry. It just feels like more bloat on an already pretty bloated skill tree. IMO, exploring isn't really ever going to be a full time role, and shouldn't be. I mean, what's a dedicated explorer supposed to do once the middle of the campaign hits, and everything is explored? It's just too nice to give a full skill tree.

There are people out there who want to gather, and don't need a super intense system. I do have some modest suggestions, but they are truly modest, and most already in the game. First, nodes are clustered up. There's always at least a little bit there, but never too much. So if you want to farm materials in a border region, expect to run into enemy gatherers. Spreading out the nodes just reduces conflict in an already conflict adverse occupation - not what we need. Second, good nodes are far away from town, and involve logistical trains. You want to farm a decent amount of material? Don't expect to walk back and forth. Planning out your logistics is essential. Third, the economy works in a pretty sane way. Risky nodes are worth more than safer nodes. This is harder than it sounds, but because of the quality system, a particular quality's value is pinned to the value of the material above and below it. Fourth, mining isn't just sitting around for 20 minutes. Even if it's just moving from one node to another, there has to be some action. People shouldn't be alt tabbing while their characters are gathering. Fifth, thralls should be able to gather, even if at a slower rate, and needing, say, a spot in a quarry, mine, or lumber mill that your guild has to occupy. Part of any economy game is building up an engine, and if you can't hire people to do work for you, the engine is never going to build up to a satisfying level.

Gathering doesn't need to be an exciting action. What's interesting for a lot of people is the spreadsheet simulator - how do I eek out just a little bit more profit?

Edited by ringhloth

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What's to prevent me, once I'm on the upstream trail, from just following it back to the "source" ignoring everything else. If the basic skill can differentiate poor from good, once you find the proper direction you can just follow it to the end and only harvest that. Maybe that's intended?

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Yes, the "click a node" system of Crowfall is pretty mundane.  

You managed to keep the best parts -- group harvesting and node competition -- while improving it a bit.  Need to be careful about the dev cost.

Re veins of resources:  Hmmm... 1.  Veins fit for somewhat high resource availability / respawn rates, and that's TBD.  Also, multiple nodes implies even more harvesting time than we're doing today, which doesn't seem right.  But if veins just stretch out the current circle formation, why not.  2.  Veins fit with more hidden resources - ore, stone, graves - but some players may prefer the current, visual inspection system for trees.  3.  In general, veins add an acceptable amount of dynamic hunting to known resource POIs, and give the devs a way to safely move unused resources.  

Re Surveying skills:  Excellent detail, but I'm not a fan of adding yet another skill line.  The current system is already bloated.  If implemented, we need to replace something instead.

Surveying, applied to body parts:  Graveyards look fantastic, but perhaps the devs are looking for a way to discover Runes?  Surveying provides a mechanism for discovering graveyards and Runes, e.g. from areas of concentrated player deaths or ancient burial sites.  It seems a lot more fun than simply beating on fixed spots for a rare drop.

Overall, the Surveying idea reminds me of Firefall's scan hammer.  (For a sample implementation, see www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldOyIT6Mnfc at the 2:00 minute mark.) Dynamic nodes, visual scans, shared scan maps, an API, etc.  There's no question it was fun and promoted social interaction.

 

Which also brings up what would really spice up harvesting:  combat.  New features should drive you to the PvP core of the game, even if they appeal to a certain type of player.   I'm not sure how Surveys do that, unless they help reveal your position to the enemy.  Ideas?

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Giving the Voxel technology in place, my idea always was and still is that there should be some hidden caves that crafting explorers can find and then exploit.

 

... well, of course after they have overcome the cave-troll ...

Edited by StefKalisch

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4 hours ago, ringhloth said:

Gathering doesn't need to be an exciting action.

Exactly.

Expecially in a PVP-oriented game (remember: Throne war simulator).

Edited by RikForFun

Catelyn: War will make them old, as it did us. I pity them.
Mathis: Why? Look at them. They're young and strong, full of life and laughter. And lust, aye, more lust than they know what to do with. There will be many a bastard bred this night, I promise you. Why pity?
Catelyn: Because it will not last. Because they are the knights of summer, and winter is coming.

A Clash of Kings, Chapter 22, Catelyn II.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crowfall Discord Channels: international (english) - italiano

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On 3/4/2017 at 6:48 AM, RikForFun said:

Exactly.

Expecially in a PVP-oriented game (remember: Throne war simulator).

 

I understand the Throne War reference, but the forums are overflowing with assumptions that all the fun will come from the magical elsewhere.   Can you clarify?

Basically, if the game ends up having logistical and guild war elements that vastly outweigh the tedious, required elements like gathering, Ringhloth will be right.  Higher level fun should suffice.

If it doesn't, and gathering consumes the a large part of daily play -- similar to current MMOs grinding MOB spots with occasional PvP skirmishes -- Eaden will be right.  We're going to be bored out of our minds farming, camping, and eating.

If the Campaign World evolves from survival to a final epic king-of-the-hill guild war, both will be somewhat right and the pace will ultimately determine where development dollars should be spent.

What's your opinion?  

Make gathering itself fun, or no?  Chum the gathering waters, to stimulate PvP?  Leave it as is, and ensure that 90% of our play is on other areas, e.g. Sieges?  Leave it, but ensure that later CW stages have increased gathering automation?  

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I really like the idea. But it shouldn't be implemented until after launch imo. They have bigger fish to fry than redo/add a lot to the gathering system right now, especially after the harvesting redux. 

It would be really cool having surveying play a part in the harvesting game once the actual game is successful. I think rn they need to work on all the other systems if they want to hit their launch date, which already can't be pushed back much due to budget and team size. 

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15 hours ago, Dominate said:

  Can you clarify?

 

Gathering is exiting when opposite faction try to kill an harvester approaching a node/POI they claim.
Moving resources on a caravan and guard it from assaults of enemy is exiting.

Gathering in a PVP-intense enviroment is exiting.
If there is not a fight to keep resource gathered, the world is meaningless... and Hunger need to come.


Catelyn: War will make them old, as it did us. I pity them.
Mathis: Why? Look at them. They're young and strong, full of life and laughter. And lust, aye, more lust than they know what to do with. There will be many a bastard bred this night, I promise you. Why pity?
Catelyn: Because it will not last. Because they are the knights of summer, and winter is coming.

A Clash of Kings, Chapter 22, Catelyn II.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crowfall Discord Channels: international (english) - italiano

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These are all fantastic ideas!  And I can definitely envision a survey system being in the game, just like you had in SWG.  It would make exploration more fun, because you have to uncover fog of war anyway.  This would give explorers real importance to who can get to the good stuff first.  I think every one can understand that what we have right now is just bare bones.  I think ACE is more focused on the meat of Combat still, and what we have now is just the basic concept of crafting and harvesting, but I think overtime, when ACE feels that combat is where they want it to be, then they will focus on the rest of it.  I mean, we have guys from both teams of Shadowbane and SWG.  I think we can expect something amazing from them.  I know they are trying to not disappoint.  So, lets give them time and be patient.  

But your right, as it stands, just going up to nodes and bashing them with the tools like in WoW is extremely boring!  The only fun part is seeing blue and purple materials pop out of the air at the last crit hit.  

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On 3/5/2017 at 11:46 AM, Dominate said:

 

I understand the Throne War reference, but the forums are overflowing with assumptions that all the fun will come from the magical elsewhere.   Can you clarify?

Basically, if the game ends up having logistical and guild war elements that vastly outweigh the tedious, required elements like gathering, Ringhloth will be right.  Higher level fun should suffice.

If it doesn't, and gathering consumes the a large part of daily play -- similar to current MMOs grinding MOB spots with occasional PvP skirmishes -- Eaden will be right.  We're going to be bored out of our minds farming, camping, and eating.

If the Campaign World evolves from survival to a final epic king-of-the-hill guild war, both will be somewhat right and the pace will ultimately determine where development dollars should be spent.

What's your opinion?  

Make gathering itself fun, or no?  Chum the gathering waters, to stimulate PvP?  Leave it as is, and ensure that 90% of our play is on other areas, e.g. Sieges?  Leave it, but ensure that later CW stages have increased gathering automation?  

Look at EVE. Gathering in EVE is literally sitting around staring at a rock for 20 minutes. You don't even have to move around. You sit around the same rock for 20 minutes, do back to the station, go back to the rock, sit staring at the rock. Yet there's a very robust ore economy. What I'm saying is that there are plenty of people in the world who are interested in gathering as it stands in MMOs, and as long as the economic side of the game is interesting, those people (me included) will be interested as well. You might be bored to tears gathering, but there are people who aren't, and don't want or need fluff. I'd suggest finding something else to do in Crowfall, rather than dictating to others how they should have they fun.

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8 hours ago, ringhloth said:

What I'm saying is that there are plenty of people in the world who are interested in gathering as it stands in MMOs, and as long as the economic side of the game is interesting, those people (me included) will be interested as well. You might be bored to tears gathering, but there are people who aren't, and don't want or need fluff. I'd suggest finding something else to do in Crowfall, rather than dictating to others how they should have they fun.

Ok dude, what the hell.  We are not wanting to "dictate" to others on how we want harvesting to be.  This is an IDEA thread.  Were just putting out what we think would be fun.  So chill. 

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I have to agree with Raph Koster in the video, when he mentions the problems associated with pressing and holding down a key to harvest, I’d also prefer this to be automatic once the key is pressed, especially as a harvester you will be doing a lot of key holding & it can become very tedious over time.  I was actually surprised to see that this hadn’t been implemented yet, since, as stated by both Raph Koster and Thomas Blair, it would be easy to change. 

Does anyone else find it annoying to have to keep there finger pressed down continuously in order to harvest?

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1 hour ago, adreu said:

Does anyone else find it annoying to have to keep there finger pressed down continuously in order to harvest?

 

Sort of.  I mean, I don't really mind it, but it would be nice to only press it once, and have the avatar automatically keep harvesting with a channel mechanic.  The only thing is that you can harvest only if you have the stamina.  once you run out of Stamina, you can't harvest.  So, when mining gold and slate, it takes three times as long because my stamina runs out so much.  So idk how they would do it if you didn't have to press down F. 

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I would prefer something with more incentive's to generate PvP challenge and encourage players to stay in one area, and know that players stay in one area, the intention of POI's.

Given the assumption that the current drop rate does not change, and the knowledge that the current drop rate is far to low for a single trained harvester to support a team on, what I would change is the following.

  • Node re-spawn go up, to a re-spawn every 30-45 second or so. (Currently 5 minutes or so) (Re-Spawn time perhaps based on a skill)
  • When a node re-spawns, it does so at +1 (Max +4) of it's base value (Perhaps make this a skill that dictates the increase).
  • Every 30 seconds it's value decreases one, until it is back at base.
  • Every time a node is hit, it resets that timer.

(All times above could be influenced by season).

In this way the entire harvesting game becomes a question of team logistics.

  • The team finds a bunch of nodes
  • Everyone starts to wear out the nodes but not hit them the final time.
  • The most skilled player finishes a node, and moves onto the next one.
  • The new node is one grade better, and non-trained players start to hit it to both wear it out and lock in the rank.
  • The skilled player is then sent running around node to node to finish them, at the higher value.
  • The more efficient the team, the higher the nodes become before falling back to base.
  • Teams will want to either bring a large stock of tools, or have a dedicated crafter replacing tools while the rest work.
  • Teams will stick it out at a single location because of the effort put into getting the nodes to raise in quality. This will lead to fights at POI's as that's where the players congregate.

Not many new mechanics, (Quality bump and countdown timer) but a much more interesting harvesting team based game.

Survey is to me not in the spirit of the game, where POI's are important. 

 

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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3 hours ago, Mezcon said:

Ok dude, what the hell.  We are not wanting to "dictate" to others on how we want harvesting to be.  This is an IDEA thread.  Were just putting out what we think would be fun.  So chill. 

But I mean, you kind of are. "I don't find these kinds of gathering systems fun, so here are different systems that I think might be fun." My fun isn't fun for you, so it should be made fun for you. I don't want a survey skill tree, because that just limits what gatherers can do. Either they won't be the people looking for nodes, or it's just one more tree you have to go down to be a good gatherer. If the goal of this thread is to make gathering interesting, well, this doesn't do it. It adds a different system that is going to make the game less fun for gatherers.

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On 3/4/2017 at 2:30 AM, ringhloth said:

I dislike this. This isn't improving the gathering game, and it would be messy to implement. At worst, in the most guilds, a surveyor is just another person needed in a gathering party, taking a gander at all of the nodes before anyone touches them. That's not improving gathering. That's just adding another step to the process. It also just penalizes new players, where the margin between a skilled gatherer and an unskilled one gets bigger and bigger, and in an economic game, margins are essential. I feel that gathering already benefits high skill players too much, and has too big of a barrier of entry. It just feels like more bloat on an already pretty bloated skill tree. IMO, exploring isn't really ever going to be a full time role, and shouldn't be. I mean, what's a dedicated explorer supposed to do once the middle of the campaign hits, and everything is explored? It's just too nice to give a full skill tree.

There are people out there who want to gather, and don't need a super intense system. I do have some modest suggestions, but they are truly modest, and most already in the game. First, nodes are clustered up. There's always at least a little bit there, but never too much. So if you want to farm materials in a border region, expect to run into enemy gatherers. Spreading out the nodes just reduces conflict in an already conflict adverse occupation - not what we need. Second, good nodes are far away from town, and involve logistical trains. You want to farm a decent amount of material? Don't expect to walk back and forth. Planning out your logistics is essential. Third, the economy works in a pretty sane way. Risky nodes are worth more than safer nodes. This is harder than it sounds, but because of the quality system, a particular quality's value is pinned to the value of the material above and below it. Fourth, mining isn't just sitting around for 20 minutes. Even if it's just moving from one node to another, there has to be some action. People shouldn't be alt tabbing while their characters are gathering. Fifth, thralls should be able to gather, even if at a slower rate, and needing, say, a spot in a quarry, mine, or lumber mill that your guild has to occupy. Part of any economy game is building up an engine, and if you can't hire people to do work for you, the engine is never going to build up to a satisfying level.

Gathering doesn't need to be an exciting action. What's interesting for a lot of people is the spreadsheet simulator - how do I eek out just a little bit more profit?

I like your harvester thralls idea.  A group of combat focused players could take a few harvester thralls out to mine for them.  The thralls wouldn't be as good as a skilled up player, and would be more difficult to defend from attack as well.

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5 hours ago, ringhloth said:

But I mean, you kind of are. "I don't find these kinds of gathering systems fun, so here are different systems that I think might be fun." My fun isn't fun for you, so it should be made fun for you. I don't want a survey skill tree, because that just limits what gatherers can do. Either they won't be the people looking for nodes, or it's just one more tree you have to go down to be a good gatherer. If the goal of this thread is to make gathering interesting, well, this doesn't do it. It adds a different system that is going to make the game less fun for gatherers.

[All ideas are welcome, even the inevitable suggestion to shut down a thread.   Posts that check assumptions are also welcome, until we're lost in endless unknowns.]

I like the clarity of your position, and even considered mentioning Eve.  I didn't want to put words in your mouth.  Some detest Eve's spreadsheets and others think such comparisons are dangerous.  Ala Star Citizen and our $10K buildings dangerous.

Firm opinion:  You're going to be somewhat more right than others, otherwise Crowfall won't fly.  The two areas that will make or break Crowfall are Group Logistics and Group PvP.  I.e. Solo PvP will be imbalanced, and solo harvesting will be a bit boring.  Harvesting is just a part -- a large part -- of logistics and pvp.

I see no reason we can't go beyond the obvious and avoid 20 minutes staring at a friggin rock.  It puts too much pressure on the logistics game.  This also isn't really about dev resources.   Firm suggestion:  switch dev resources ASAP from realism elements like apples & arrows to creative ways to make the daily functions a bit more enjoyable.  

P.S.  or automate boring crap and let me kill all the thralls.  same thing

Edited by Dominate
Added p.s.

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1 hour ago, Dominate said:

[All ideas are welcome, even the inevitable suggestion to shut down a thread.   Posts that check assumptions are also welcome, until we're lost in endless unknowns.]

I like the clarity of your position, and even considered mentioning Eve.  I didn't want to put words in your mouth.  Some detest Eve's spreadsheets and others think such comparisons are dangerous.  Ala Star Citizen and our $10K buildings dangerous.

Firm opinion:  You're going to be somewhat more right than others, otherwise Crowfall won't fly.  The two areas that will make or break Crowfall are Group Logistics and Group PvP.  I.e. Solo PvP will be imbalanced, and solo harvesting will be a bit boring.  Harvesting is just a part -- a large part -- of logistics and pvp.

I see no reason we can't go beyond the obvious and avoid 20 minutes staring at a friggin rock.  It puts too much pressure on the logistics game.  This also isn't really about dev resources.   Firm suggestion:  switch dev resources ASAP from realism elements like apples & arrows to creative ways to make the daily functions a bit more enjoyable.  

P.S.  or automate boring crap and let me kill all the thralls.  same thing

I wasn't really clear, but I don't really love EVE's system (too hands-off, no clear reward for going low-sec versus high-sec, only null-sec versus high-sec, and the logistics of moving your gathered materials to a storage are too easy). I think solo gatherers will have places in the most lenient and the most stringent of campaign rules - in the faction rule set, there should be plenty of safe ground. In the FFA, most people will be too focused on gathering their own materials to really focus on running around ganking. Though it depends how many people are in these FFAs, and how big the maps are.

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