Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
acriminalmind

Looting

Looting  

423 members have voted

  1. 1. When defeating a fellow Crowfall player, should you:

    • Have the ability to loot that player's inventory BUT NOT their equipped gear?
    • Have the ability to loot that player's inventory AND their equipped gear?
    • Get some ****ing worthless reward for a PK like a badge, medal, or trophy?


Recommended Posts

I feel as though you either haven't really devoted yourself to crafting before or really played a game where you ganked people a lot.

Sure crafting in the beginning you really don't lose a lot, but as the game progresses you'll most likely need more and more mats and have to spend more and more time out collecting. When you die after two hours of spending real time just collecting resources and you lose everything? Why bother being a devoted crafter? 

 

You shouldn't.  You should quit at that point, because you have proven you don't even have a basic understand of strategy or safety.

 

If you are gathering in a dangerous area, you don't gather up two hours worth of mats at once.  That is utterly insane and foolish. You risk losing all of that at once for what? A tiny bit a laziness because you don't have to return to town as often.

 

No, the smart gatherer gathers for maybe 10-15 minutes, then takes a few minutes to return to town, banks the goods, and then return to crafting.

 

_Or_ the smart gatherer communicates with his faction, his friends, or even just mercenary players, and tells them that he is setting a trap, he is going to gather in a way which will surely attract a ganker, and they can get an easy kill on that ganker when he reveals himself and take his gear as spoils. Emergent fun, thanks to a realistic looting sytem.

 

 

Besides, consider your idea of a loot system- you lose half or 1/3 of your stuff when you die.

 

Okay.  So the foolish crafter is gathering for 2 hours to collect mats, and he is ganked- under your system.  As a result, he loses 40 minutes or an hours worth of mats.  But hey, he still has the rest, thats good right?  Nope, because as soon as he respawns the ganker just kills him again, for another portion of his mats.  This continues for 4-5 deaths until the ganker is satisfied that he has obtained most of the valuables held by the crafter.

 

But what if the gatherer tries to collect friends or mercenaries to protect himself? A: This is much harder.  Without loot drop on death, there is much less personal incentive to want to help kill a ganker. Some truly bored player might want to help, but it's not going to be like it is when there is a prize of equipment spoils available. A more mercenary player would certainly not waste his time trying to kill a ganker for no reward.  And even if the ganker is killed, he loses nothing, and he can come right back and bother you again immediately later.

 

Don't you see: your ideal solution is not a solution at all, and just leads to an even worse game-play experience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's a point when games are just too hardcore.  

 

There's no useful items.  Okay, I guess customization options will be low, as every item is of the same usefulness.  It's hardcore! 

Stock up on items, noob! Okay, I guess I'll regularly spend hours of play time simply stocking up on identical items.  It's hardcore! 

Hey we're in a big fight, but yea, I died once.  I didn't have time to prepare more items, and my guild isn't organized.  It's hardcore! 

Hey I'm camping someone's city, and now they're just spam rushing us naked cause they ran out of gear.  It's hardcore! 

I could fight, but dying is just too much work.  I don't want to fight.  I'd rather just run from all engagements.  It's hardcore! 

 

Hardcore is not synonymous with good.  Putting a nail through your foot for no reason is hardcore.  

 

I've experienced all of the above in Darkfall, and sure, over the span of years those issues might taper down as everyone playing has stockpile upon stockpile, but the game will be a ghost town of only the most masochistic players.  Don't get me wrong, normal games are too far in the other direction; however, that's no excuse to make sure "penalties" for dying have to be so absurd that they just make you want to log off.  In a large siege, I want to be able to get back into the action at some point, and not die once and just log off if I didn't have the time to prepare, or I'm in a casual guild.  

 

I also think that gear taking permanent damage (every repair lowers maximum durability; slow decay over instant), basically makes killing someone almost as big a deal as if it were full loot, without all the negative side effects.  You still get whatever they were carrying (game can be designed that carrying valuables is common, too), and if they have expensive gear, know that you were part of that gears permanent destruction.  It's not like the leetskeet items also couldn't have absurd repair costs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 If it's a combat system where even someone wearing low gear can still win against someone wearing good stuff, then that's even more reason that the ganker doesn't bother wearing anything too rare out to kill mat collectors. Maybe the crafter can kill him but he'll get jack **** and the ganker can just come back for another try.

 

I agree, that would be terrible. I am totally against any sort of combat system like that.  Ultimately, if the combat system is one in which the "skill" of jumping around pillars and such is enough to defeat a player with superior equipment, class, etc, then I just won't play the game so the point is moot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You shouldn't.  You should quit at that point, because you have proven you don't even have a basic understand of strategy or safety.

 

If you are gathering in a dangerous area, you don't gather up two hours worth of mats at once.  That is utterly insane and foolish. You risk losing all of that at once for what? A tiny bit a laziness because you don't have to return to town as often.

 

No, the smart gatherer gathers for maybe 10-15 minutes, then takes a few minutes to return to town, banks the goods, and then return to crafting.

 

_Or_ the smart gatherer communicates with his faction, his friends, or even just mercenary players, and tells them that he is setting a trap, he is going to gather in a way which will surely attract a ganker, and they can get an easy kill on that ganker when he reveals himself and take his gear as spoils. Emergent fun, thanks to a realistic looting sytem.

 

 

Besides, consider your idea of a loot system- you lose half or 1/3 of your stuff when you die.

 

Okay.  So the foolish crafter is gathering for 2 hours to collect mats, and he is ganked- under your system.  As a result, he loses 40 minutes or an hours worth of mats.  But hey, he still has the rest, thats good right?  Nope, because as soon as he respawns the ganker just kills him again, for another portion of his mats.  This continues for 4-5 deaths until the ganker is satisfied that he has obtained most of the valuables held by the crafter.

 

But what if the gatherer tries to collect friends or mercenaries to protect himself? A: This is much harder.  Without loot drop on death, there is much less personal incentive to want to help kill a ganker. Some truly bored player might want to help, but it's not going to be like it is when there is a prize of equipment spoils available. A more mercenary player would certainly not waste his time trying to kill a ganker for no reward.  And even if the ganker is killed, he loses nothing, and he can come right back and bother you again immediately later.

 

Don't you see: your ideal solution is not a solution at all, and just leads to an even worse game-play experience.

I really don't think you're even reading my whole posts, so I guess I'll have to repeat myself in shorter paragraphs.

When you respawn at a city or town it's pretty hard for the ganker to immediately find you because they're still at your body. Unless there's going to be some kind of tracking system or if mats only spawn in one place it's actually hard to find someone after killing them once unless they go back to try and get their stuff.

 

In full loot system people are not going to be wearing their best equipment and are always going to empty inventory completely before going out hunting. So no spoils for helping people set traps.

 

Please please please. Read the words that other people say before foolishly responding in ignorance. I shouldn't have to explain every last slight detail about how this works. It's clear you haven't played in a full loot world before or you would already know a lot of this stuff. If you post again saying random crap that I've already explained I'm probably just going to ignore it.


lopuda47ee7.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I chose full loot, though that would obviously change if gear were a major overriding component to the game. Gear grinds are no fun, and less so if you grind it all just to lose it in one death. Inventories absolutely should be lootable, and for gods sake, make it so that inventory cannot be deleted once engaged in pvp. There is also the option to have a random percentage chance for one or more equipment pieces to drop. For example, some times no geared equipment would drop, other rare times you may loose two or three pieces of equipment.


.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If they lose their equiped gear, people would lose interest in playing.

Unless it was very difficult to die or gear was so easily attainable.

 

Same thing was a downfall for Shadowbane, people would lose their stuff and didn't want to start over.

 

Voted for loot inventory but not equipment


Qk6jfUu.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really don't think you're even reading my whole posts, so I guess I'll have to repeat myself in shorter paragraphs.

When you respawn at a city or town it's pretty hard for the ganker to immediately find you because they're still at your body. Unless there's going to be some kind of tracking system or if mats only spawn in one place it's actually hard to find someone after killing them once unless they go back to try and get their stuff.

 

In full loot system people are not going to be wearing their best equipment and are always going to empty inventory completely before going out hunting. So no spoils for helping people set traps.

 

Please please please. Read the words that other people say before foolishly responding in ignorance. I shouldn't have to explain every last slight detail about how this works. It's clear you haven't played in a full loot world before or you would already know a lot of this stuff. If you post again saying random crap that I've already explained I'm probably just going to ignore it.

 

1- Why are you assuming you respawn at town? In majority of current MMO, you respawn either at your point of death or at the nearest graveyard.  I'm not sure why you are assuming an archaic system that hasn't been used in games for the last decade.

 

2- If the game is balanced properly, a ganker using crappy garbage gear that he isn't afraid of losing will be easy to escape from. For balanced full loot pvp, there needs to be some reliance on gear, or you get this exact problem- naked mages running around killing people with spells with no risk, thieves using a rusty dagger to backstab for insane damage, etc.  No, that is poor game design. If someone attacks you with gear that is essentially worthless, it should be almost impossible for him to kill you, assuming you aren't an absolute newbie and assuming you are not AFK.  But this is totally unrelated to the subject of loot systems, and irrelevant.  If the game is broken so much that garbage gear is enough to kill anyone anytime, then NO loot system will work to prevent mindless zerg style pvp, because there won't ever be any risk.

 

As a side note, I'm in favor of further death penalties beyond dropping gear.  XP loss, level loss, stat decay are all good things IMO, but need to be limited. Perhaps you only risk loss of stats if you are an aggressor.  That is another great way to make ganking more of a risk vs reward choice rather than an all reward zero risk choice.

 

3- I've played far more of full loot pvp games than you have, I am sure. The part you seem to be missing is that it's just one piece of the puzzle. You can't take a broken game and add full loot and expect it to work, of course not, but if the game is solid underneath full loot works wonderfully.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think full loot is even about death penalties.

 

It's about reward for the victor. Killing people is hard. Why even play that playstyle if there is no personal reward for doing so?

 

Vanilla WoW on a PVP server was some of the most fun I had in that game. But after awhile, world pvp just got old. It didn't affect anything and didn't benefit me in anyway. Next thing I knew I was playing battlegrounds constantly wishing for an open world pvp game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've never been a fan of full gear loot. It discourages competitive PvP by making players less likely to want to risk a fight where there's a decent chance they can lose. Even if gear is easyish to acquire it just becomes pointless tedium that puts an obstacle between the player and playing the game. Shadowbane style full inventory loot is the best of all worlds because there can be risk and reward to encourage PvP, but when you know you're heading out to a specific PvP event you just come with a clear inventory and have at. 

 

For those concerned about losing their shinies when out farming, the benefit of having a thrill of travelling with something valuable on you is worth the cost. And it goes both ways. Sure, maybe you get ganked with a decent chunk of change on you and it kind of sucks. But then later that week you gank some one from the guild that ganked you and get back even more. You get to be your own instrument of justice, hunting them and all of their friends down as you now have a grudge. That's the kind of game play that gets addicting fast.


pKWaYh4.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1- Why are you assuming you respawn at town? In majority of current MMO, you respawn either at your point of death or at the nearest graveyard.  I'm not sure why you are assuming an archaic system that hasn't been used in games for the last decade.

 

2- If the game is balanced properly, a ganker using crappy garbage gear that he isn't afraid of losing will be easy to escape from. For balanced full loot pvp, there needs to be some reliance on gear, or you get this exact problem- naked mages running around killing people with spells with no risk, thieves using a rusty dagger to backstab for insane damage, etc.  No, that is poor game design. If someone attacks you with gear that is essentially worthless, it should be almost impossible for him to kill you, assuming you aren't an absolute newbie and assuming you are not AFK.  But this is totally unrelated to the subject of loot systems, and irrelevant.  If the game is broken so much that garbage gear is enough to kill anyone anytime, then NO loot system will work to prevent mindless zerg style pvp, because there won't ever be any risk.

 

As a side note, I'm in favor of further death penalties beyond dropping gear.  XP loss, level loss, stat decay are all good things IMO, but need to be limited. Perhaps you only risk loss of stats if you are an aggressor.  That is another great way to make ganking more of a risk vs reward choice rather than an all reward zero risk choice.

 

3- I've played far more of full loot pvp games than you have, I am sure. The part you seem to be missing is that it's just one piece of the puzzle. You can't take a broken game and add full loot and expect it to work, of course not, but if the game is solid underneath full loot works wonderfully.

Darkfall had bindstones that were often times in towns and cities that you spawned at after death. Graveyards illustrate the same point, a person cannot really follow you after you've respawned to kill you again if they don't know where you are. They may have general direction but assuming the world is rather large it is easy to lose them.

Please remind me again of the open world pvp full loot game where you spawned at your body, must've missed that one.

 

Then if gear is powerful enough to dictate combat then open world pvp with full loot becomes a nightmare for any new player. A month into release no new player could ever venture out without being killed with a single swipe of a blade. Once again, you are pushing for a game completely designed around pvp guild vs guild combat where you literally can't survive unless you immeidately join a guild for protection. A game where only a small niche group of players can really enjoy themselves and where there is no room given for people of a different style to thrive.


lopuda47ee7.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If they lose their equiped gear, people would lose interest in playing.

Unless it was very difficult to die or gear was so easily attainable.

 

Same thing was a downfall for Shadowbane, people would lose their stuff and didn't want to start over.

 

Voted for loot inventory but not equipment

 

What the... are you talking about? SB had exactly what you voted for, the carebear half-way out with loot inventory but not equipment. This was extremely carebear aspect of SB.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

make luxury slots for items. Something like the player may choose 3 item slots that are no drop and end game content to unlock the slots.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What the... are you talking about? SB had exactly what you voted for, the carebear half-way out with loot inventory but not equipment. This was extremely carebear aspect of SB.

 

It wasn't exactly easy to disengage in SB, and once a fight went south, you couldn't just run and not have to worry about getting chased down.  If SB had full loot, then there would have never been as many consistent and nightly mine fights and sieges.  No one would do a 20v20 unless they knew they were a sure win (but then the other side would just run).  The game probably would have died MUCH faster if it was full loot, especially since it would have completely taken gear out of the equation (everyone would just wear standard white stuff).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Darkfall had bindstones that were often times in towns and cities that you spawned at after death. Graveyards illustrate the same point, a person cannot really follow you after you've respawned to kill you again if they don't know where you are. They may have general direction but assuming the world is rather large it is easy to lose them.

Please remind me again of the open world pvp full loot game where you spawned at your body, must've missed that one.

 

Then if gear is powerful enough to dictate combat then open world pvp with full loot becomes a nightmare for any new player. A month into release no new player could ever venture out without being killed with a single swipe of a blade. Once again, you are pushing for a game completely designed around pvp guild vs guild combat where you literally can't survive unless you immeidately join a guild for protection. A game where only a small niche group of players can really enjoy themselves and where there is no room given for people of a different style to thrive.

 

Darkfall is a failed game.  Every successful MMO has you respawn at/near your corpse or at the nearest graveyard.  Besides, it's ultimately irrelevant, I was just pointing out the inconsistency between what you wrote and reality.  Even if you spawn in a town, what are you going to do?  you were out farming for a reason, now oyu are in town with less than half the mats you needed (otherwise you would have stopped farming an hour ago), so you are going to go back out to farm more, and get ganked again.

 

As far as your second points, it's clear you have zero experience in actually playing these sorts of games. Just because gear matters doesn't mean nothing else matters.  

 

You seem to be under the impression that if decent gear isn't free garbage everyone has an infinite supply of, it must take weeks to farm.  Don't be absurd.  It is entirely possible to balance the game such that a- garbage/free gear or trying to fight naked is incredible ineffective and unlikely to work *and* b- decent, good enough gear can be obtained after a few hours of play.  Such balance would mean that any "newbie" who has at least gone through the basic tutorial stage of the game and played a few hours beyond that could stand a chance, at least from the standpoint of gear, against your evil veteran pkiller.

 

Ultimately, it is all about risk/reward. It's a problem if a ganker can gank successfully in gear that is essentially worthless or takes a few seconds to obtain. It's *NOT* a problem if that same ganker needs to spend 2-3 hours to collect a decent set of gear, because that means he is risking 2-3 hours worth of his time for potential to gank and steal an hour or two worth of gathering mats. If he has 10 sets of gear in the bank, so what?  He is still risking time/money in the form of sets of gear, and i he is careless often enough he will use up his saved supply.  It's only a problem when the baseline gear is essentially free.  Low value is okay, free is bad.

 

Besides that, there shouldn't be any "newbie" identifiers, nor clear levels or even class indicators. A potential ganker shouldn't know anything about his target other than maybe name and what is visible worn. A newbie who joins 3 months into the game might be an easy target, but for the evil ganker guy the newbie should be indistinguishable from the veteran players who are just farming mats to work on professions as a side project. The ganker has no clue, and again this is where risk/reward fits in- by attacking anyone and everyone he sees, he is almost certain to accidentally attack people stronger than him, and fail and lose his gear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Darkfall is a failed game.  Every successful MMO has you respawn at/near your corpse or at the nearest graveyard.  Besides, it's ultimately irrelevant, I was just pointing out the inconsistency between what you wrote and reality.  Even if you spawn in a town, what are you going to do?  you were out farming for a reason, now oyu are in town with less than half the mats you needed (otherwise you would have stopped farming an hour ago), so you are going to go back out to farm more, and get ganked again.

 

As far as your second points, it's clear you have zero experience in actually playing these sorts of games. Just because gear matters doesn't mean nothing else matters.  

 

You seem to be under the impression that if decent gear isn't free garbage everyone has an infinite supply of, it must take weeks to farm.  Don't be absurd.  It is entirely possible to balance the game such that a- garbage/free gear or trying to fight naked is incredible ineffective and unlikely to work *and* b- decent, good enough gear can be obtained after a few hours of play.  Such balance would mean that any "newbie" who has at least gone through the basic tutorial stage of the game and played a few hours beyond that could stand a chance, at least from the standpoint of gear, against your evil veteran pkiller.

 

Ultimately, it is all about risk/reward. It's a problem if a ganker can gank successfully in gear that is essentially worthless or takes a few seconds to obtain. It's *NOT* a problem if that same ganker needs to spend 2-3 hours to collect a decent set of gear, because that means he is risking 2-3 hours worth of his time for potential to gank and steal an hour or two worth of gathering mats. If he has 10 sets of gear in the bank, so what?  He is still risking time/money in the form of sets of gear, and i he is careless often enough he will use up his saved supply.  It's only a problem when the baseline gear is essentially free.  Low value is okay, free is bad.

 

Besides that, there shouldn't be any "newbie" identifiers, nor clear levels or even class indicators. A potential ganker shouldn't know anything about his target other than maybe name and what is visible worn. A newbie who joins 3 months into the game might be an easy target, but for the evil ganker guy the newbie should be indistinguishable from the veteran players who are just farming mats to work on professions as a side project. The ganker has no clue, and again this is where risk/reward fits in- by attacking anyone and everyone he sees, he is almost certain to accidentally attack people stronger than him, and fail and lose his gear.

You appear to only be taking into account a perfect game that you've concocted in your head that in no way can actually exist in reality. If a newbie whose only played for two hours stands a chance against someone that's played hardcore for a month in 1vs1 combat then clearly gear has no large impact on it and refer back to my previous posts. What is visibly worn is usually a pretty good indicator unless there is 0 difference in how gear looks. For the veteran player whose spent a month or so playing that 2-3 hours isn't much compared to the new player whose just trying to figure out the game. Etc...etc...etc... you want open world pvp guild vs guild hardcore where only people similar to yourself really have fun; I want a game that appeals to a greater diversity of players. This conversation is really going nowhere. You believe it is possible for people other than those like you to have fun in your ideal world; I however, do not. I'm afraid we must resign ourselves to agreeing to disagree.


lopuda47ee7.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What the... are you talking about? SB had exactly what you voted for, the carebear half-way out with loot inventory but not equipment. This was extremely carebear aspect of SB.

People would lose their towns, their forges, their gold, their time. People care about pixels, people would leave. I know this game is going to be a hardcore MMO different from the rest, down for that. Not down for losing my armor everytime I die. Thats custard dumb, why the custard would I wanna play that? It's a challenge? Oh cool, now I gotta go repeat poorly made socks over and over again everytime I die first before I continue onto the new content I was about to explore.

But alas; it depends on the rarity of collecting armor from drops and how you go about getting it.

Now as it was stated in this thread; your armor taking permenant damage. Now that is something I can get behind.


Qk6jfUu.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You appear to only be taking into account a perfect game that you've concocted in your head that in no way can actually exist in reality. If a newbie whose only played for two hours stands a chance against someone that's played hardcore for a month in 1vs1 combat then clearly gear has no large impact on it and refer back to my previous posts. What is visibly worn is usually a pretty good indicator unless there is 0 difference in how gear looks. For the veteran player whose spent a month or so playing that 2-3 hours isn't much compared to the new player whose just trying to figure out the game. Etc...etc...etc... you want open world pvp guild vs guild hardcore where only people similar to yourself really have fun; I want a game that appeals to a greater diversity of players. This conversation is really going nowhere. You believe it is possible for people other than those like you to have fun in your ideal world; I however, do not. I'm afraid we must resign ourselves to agreeing to disagree.

 

Nope, I'm taking in account multiple games I have played through the history of MMO development, and comparing the differences.

 

UO was great from the pvp/loot side. Full loot, FFA pvp. Now, it suffered from a lack of content early on, and had horrible balance- everyone was a tank/mage in the earliest days, and after the archery patch everyone became a tank/archer/mage.

 

Shadowbane was a lot of fun, but I could see the exact problems I am talking about here.  Ultimately world pvp in shadowbane fell flat, because all the incentives favored the ganker. You could gank XP or farming groups and make tons of gold, with virtually zero risk.  Trying to protect a friends XP or farm group might be fun as a novelty, but in practice it quickly became frustrating because the gankers you killed dropped nothing and you were wasting time that could be spent farming or leveling.

 

It really all comes down to keeping the risk vs reward balanced.  Equipped items must drop, or else you can turn the system in your favor by banking your inventory and going out to fight with all your gear equipped.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...