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First, I want to start by saying that this is by far the most polished game at this stage of development that I have ever played and I absolutely love what the team has done so far. Please know that I don't want to sound too critical when I say that I am also extremely disappointed by the decision to add such a harsh failure system to the otherwise flawless crafting. I was hopeful that this sort of soul crushing RNG would not make it into a Western based game, especially one with item decay and inventory loot. I think everything else about the crafting is near prefect but when you consider the aspects that make it so great - the heart pounding risk of gathering the materials, the depth and focus required to make an item, the gamble on how many points to invest in researching, plus item decay and inventory loot - adding in an outright chance at failure is just overkill and turns this otherwise fantastic system into something just a little too sadistic, pushing it into the "no longer fun" category. I don't see how failure is at all necessary for this type of game but I am open to hearing other opinions. How does everyone else feel about this? Like it, hate it, indifferent?

Edited by Mytherceria

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I wouldn't mind it so much if you got back some of the materials if you failed. Not the items used for the exact crafting, but the base materials used to make the sub materials. For example, if you fail to craft a staff you don't get back a staff head, you get back the base materials for it, parchment and stone and whatnot used to make the runes. Say, 50% of the total base materials. This could increase if you craft at a crafting station, so if you fail at a basic station you get back 75%, and a high level station you get back 100%.

 

But yes, I do agree that just losing everything you spent the last few hours working on simply because of RNG is soul crushing and goes completely against the idea that the threat in the game is the enemy player and not the system itself. The RNG to make a better item is acceptable, but to simply lose everything is not.

Edited by Schmooples

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I do like RNG on the experimentation part of the system. As the crafter, I get to decide how much risk I want to take, for the chance to get an amazing item. That seems like a positive and fun use of RNG.

 

I am nervous about the critical failure on assembly part. I don't understand enough of how the systems interplay yet to give specific feedback on it.

 

It's not clear to me why failure seems high using common (grey) materials. Is it based on materials quality? (purple/gold must have a crazy high fail rate) Is it based on material type? (materials have different stats and different difficulties?) Is it going to be totally skill based (which means only training time)? Will crafting disciplines help mitigate it? Will there be crafter gear with +crafting stats? 

 

The other big factor is resource supply. If resources are abundant and easy to find, then I don't mind having to make more attempts to get a good item. If  resource supply is gated, and I have to spend hours trying to gather enough ore/hide to make one attempt and it fails - that is not really fun gameplay.


tiPrpwh.png

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I wouldn't mind it so much if you got back some of the materials if you failed. Not the items used for the exact crafting, but the base materials used to make the sub materials. For example, if you fail to craft a staff you don't get back a staff head, you get back the base materials for it, parchment and stone and whatnot used to make the runes. Say, 50% of the total base materials. This could increase if you craft at a crafting station, so if you fail at a basic station you get back 75%, and a high level station you get back 100%.

 

But yes, I do agree that just losing everything you spent the last few hours working on simply because of RNG is soul crushing and goes completely against the idea that the threat in the game is the enemy player and not the system itself. The RNG to make a better item is acceptable, but to simply lose everything is not.

 

I'd rather not have it at all since I don't think it's necessary but this would be an acceptable compromise. 

 

I do like RNG on the experimentation part of the system. As the crafter, I get to decide how much risk I want to take, for the chance to get an amazing item. That seems like a positive and fun use of RNG.

 

I am nervous about the critical failure on assembly part. I don't understand enough of how the systems interplay yet to give specific feedback on it.

 

It's not clear to me why failure seems high using common (grey) materials. Is it based on materials quality? (purple/gold must have a crazy high fail rate) Is it based on material type? (materials have different stats and different difficulties?) Is it going to be totally skill based (which means only training time)? Will crafting disciplines help mitigate it? Will there be crafter gear with +crafting stats? 

 

The other big factor is resource supply. If resources are abundant and easy to find, then I don't mind having to make more attempts to get a good item. If  resource supply is gated, and I have to spend hours trying to gather enough ore/hide to make one attempt and it fails - that is not really fun gameplay.

 

I think knowing more about why there is such a high chance of failure would be helpful but I still don't think it adds anything beyond what the system already has. It is so deep and time consuming that I just think adding in too much RNG is redundant and could end up harming it. I too love the research points system - that is a decent and acceptable use of RNG. I might be able to accept failure if it only occurred for someone without crafting skills and dedicated crafters who invest in crafting can get the success chance to 100% fairly easily (like within a few weeks, not months) but even then, I think it's still an unnecessarily harsh addition to a system that does not really benefit from it in any way that I can see. I get that crafting should be meaningful but making things too rare and difficult to obtain is not always the best idea for a pvp focused game where materials and gear will be constantly looted and destroyed anyway.

Edited by Mytherceria

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I'm not ready to call it quits on this system just yet, but I think an acceptable trade off would be to have a significant durability hit to the final product depending on how bad your failure was.  Having a sword that lasts only 15% of the original time is still much better than having the entire thing fall flat.

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I wouldn't mind it so much if you got back some of the materials if you failed. Not the items used for the exact crafting, but the base materials used to make the sub materials. For example, if you fail to craft a staff you don't get back a staff head, you get back the base materials for it, parchment and stone and whatnot used to make the runes. Say, 50% of the total base materials. This could increase if you craft at a crafting station, so if you fail at a basic station you get back 75%, and a high level station you get back 100%.

 

But yes, I do agree that just losing everything you spent the last few hours working on simply because of RNG is soul crushing and goes completely against the idea that the threat in the game is the enemy player and not the system itself. The RNG to make a better item is acceptable, but to simply lose everything is not.

 

i agree, like you get a "broken" item in your inventory which you can then salvage

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Right now, we have recipes that we won't have at the same point in the live game. We'll need to increase our skills to get many of those recipes. Instead, we'll be crafting the basic gear to start, which will of course have a higher probability of success.

 

For the purposes of testing, we have more options, and we also have potions that will increase our chances of being successful. The crafting window tells you what your chances are of successfully crafting the item. If your chances aren't good, pop a potion or accept that it may fail.

 

The bigger issue is successfully crafted items disappearing instead of going into the inventory.

Edited by Arkade

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So there are things still not final yet. And with the short time we have to test, I'm willing to bet modifiers like mastery have yet to come into play. This is like the first 24 hours after launch. I wouldn't expect people to be able to craft things reliably yet. After all, there needs to be a reason for people to go full crafter.

 

As for the system we have, the numbers are subject to balance so I won't comment on that. The idea of rarer resources is neat, like high quality ores and such. I like how there are multiple components that need to be made, and each can be different depending on how you experiment and what mats you use. The only issue is navigation is super clunky. Instead of separating the subcomponents out, they should be nested in with the item as a whole. So Weapons -> Rapier -> Weapon Grip -> Pommel -> Stitched leather. That's my first criticism. I spent waaaay too much time navigating back and forth trying to get what I needed.

 

Secondly, The things that the materials actually do is a bit ambiguous. What exactly is the support stat? It'd be nice to know by hovering it.

 

Aaaaand the inventory bugs. There are many... Items not appearing after craft, getting stuck in the combine loop, dead inventory spaces, different items sitting on top of one another, and the weird zero stacks of items. Fun fact, consumables at 0 stacks can still be used. Additionally, some recipes like leather armor won't accept certain mats. Like the padded leather on the leather cap. Worked fine on the mail armor though.

 

Aside from that, I'd also like some sort of visual difference between weapons. The white silhouette looks nice and all, but I can't till which pistol is my poorly made [Apparently a certain swear word is filtered to Socks] socksy pistol.

 

That's about all I have on the crafting system at this point. More in the future!

Edited by prospectre

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 we'll be crafting the basic gear to start, which will of course have a higher probability of success.

nope. Had critical failures on 'basic' starter level stuff. an hour of farming down the drain in one click and zero to show for it.


Nothing is impossible, but some things are very expensive.

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The bigger issue is successfully crafted items disappearing instead of going into the inventory.

 

Blankspace mentioned in chat to wait for like 30 seconds (I wait more like a minute) before clicking take - something about server lag. I rarely have the item disappear bug anymore.

 

nope. Had critical failures on 'basic' starter level stuff. an hour of farming down the drain in one click and zero to show for it.

 

Yeah, I have had stupid things fail. I fail even when using the crafting potions. I understand that we are testing higher level stuff without the necessary skills, I still don't think outright failure is a good idea. There is way too much work involved in this system to make item loss failures a good idea, even if it is a low chance. 

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There is way too much work involved in this system to make item loss failures a good idea, even if it is a low chance. 

 

Think of this way, they have a high fail chance now in order to test how failing works. They need to get some data on it, so they upped the chances.

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Think of this way, they have a high fail chance now in order to test how failing works. They need to get some data on it, so they upped the chances.

 

Did they actually say that? Have a link? Otherwise I think it is prudent for people to critique at this point since we are supposed to be giving feedback.

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Did they actually say that? Have a link? Otherwise I think it is prudent for people to critique at this point since we are supposed to be giving feedback.

 

I do not, however I am a software engineer myself. In order to test the functionality of certain things, sometimes you have to force them. And besides, they are single values. They are super easy to change should they feel like it.

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I agree in this environment Dreaden.

 

I'm not sure I agree on live though. I LOVE the depth and time sink to crafting and gathering for several reasons. It will keep people at POIs and out in the world.

 

But for a short test, yes, it's kind of a pain. Maybe reduce durability hit a tad.

 

And ultimately I hope there is a repair skill that may be trained, but reduced total durability.

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... time invested in gathering

 

I think that might be the real problem, more so than the failure mechanic. Especially if there are ways for a full-time crafter to mitigate failures and automate component production. There is no way to make more ore nodes or pigs appear.

Edited by miraluna

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One thing to recall is that at this stage you are getting pretty much most of the recipes, at least those that are developed. That is unlikely to be the case at launch, and you'll find that your chance of success will be much higher when you craft the recipes you are failing just now.

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Check the skill trees. Blacksmith certainly has a point that permits repairs.  However, durability loss has to remain at a decent rate for two reasons:

 

 - To make repair worth training.

 - To hammer home that equipment isn't as important in this game.

Edited by NostrusUK

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Just for some perspective on how annoying this mechanic is. I spent all day today and most of yesterday gathering green ore to make a staff. I finally had enough ore to make said staff. I had all crafting potions running and my success rate was 97%. The staff head failed. Many hours of harvesting wasted. If this makes it into the final game, it is a massive problem.

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Stoplight proposal:   It would be interesting if each recipe craft was a three-step process, starting at GREEN and progressing potentially towards RED.  At each step, status could move towards red, but never back towards green.   So it could go GREEN-GREEN-GREEN  or GREEN-YELLOW-YELLOW, both being successes, but it could also go GREEN-YELLOW-RED which is a failure.   At each step you can bail out, with a known cost (e.g. loss of one component at random).

 

Maybe too late for such a thing.  Probably not warranted.  If our crafting failures are due to low skill, then I'm not concerned (we have had precious little time to skill up).

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