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DASHENDEAVOR

Sorry. I really think you need to gut the skill tree system.

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The skill tree systems seems to be based on giving players straight up more power based on playtime.

 

The system seems to also limit player choice when wanting to be most effective.

 

Long term, 3 years from now, Veteran players are going to have TONS of these skills unlocked. A few complete Archetypes. They'll be able to pick a few different thinks and be competitive.

 

A new player wants to start playing Crowfall. They're immediately at a disadvantage. Straight up % stat worse naked than a Vet also naked.

 

Give them 6 months. They've now completed one Archetype. They can be competitive with that, but really are now at a disadvantage for wanting to play something else.

 

The system punishes new players, and limits choice.

 

I think completely abandoning it would be better than having it.

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The skill tree systems seems to be based on giving players straight up more power based on playtime.

 

The system seems to also limit player choice when wanting to be most effective.

 

Long term, 3 years from now, Veteran players are going to have TONS of these skills unlocked. A few complete Archetypes. They'll be able to pick a few different thinks and be competitive.

 

A new player wants to start playing Crowfall. They're immediately at a disadvantage. Straight up % stat worse naked than a Vet also naked.

 

Give them 6 months. They've now completed one Archetype. They can be competitive with that, but really are now at a disadvantage for wanting to play something else.

 

The system punishes new players, and limits choice.

 

I think completely abandoning it would be better than having it.

 

100% agree with you here, and its also my fear for Crowfall. I feel at the least we need to be able to have at least one Archetype which can truly be viable and strong even vs vets, vets should have the flexibility of having a bit more choice and specs but never should just be straight stronger then someone who has been playing much longer. Also Archetype grind of multiple months before its viable is pretty absurd imo. Thats not skill or freedom of choice or even punishment of it, its just a lack of content and depth. The grind for having a viable character should not be months or years. 

 

Maybe has its own flaws but giving a bigger boost to the first real archetype(not talking bout crafting clearly, as i think crafting should be something more dedicated imo) might be good so a player can go out join a guild and have a strong character and be effective, after the first archetype the others can maybe have more of a curve to it so it takes a bit longer.

Edited by krevra

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Its just so boring, like 80% of it is just a copy pasta.

 

X increase to heavy armor

X increase to medium armor

X increase to light armor

X damage

X crit

X crit damage

X health

X mana

X stamina

 

Is almost the entire thing... and then theirs the giant all including skills tha increase almost all of the above but in 1 node.

 

 

The only truely interesting thing I can think of is the Knight mount speed, which is understandably copied by leggionairre


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The problem isnt that you are ~12% better with a 3 year head start (which any competetive player can tell you is easily compensatable by skill) but that the tree as so terribly designed. Well not terribly designed but barely designed.

 

Ziz already said it. You might as well just pay for gear and be better then a pure fighter. Can't we at least copy stuff from moba's?

"After landing CC you get a shield"

"Crits heal you"

"Consecutive attacks deal increased damage"

 

At least something to be in the least excited about. The tree needed to be 100% completed to advance into higher tiers is a different issue all together.

 

EDIT: Let's assume we get some choice in the trees (which is already up in the air) we have 2 overarching playstyles: Crit and Damage.

In the crit tree, after let's say, a month of training, you can choose between:

"After you crit the next crit will deal 50% damage"

or

"Crits heal you"

or

"Crits reduce the armor of your enemy"

 

Or w/e it would be. Along the tree you would pick up crit damage and crit chance, maybe some attack power. That way you have unique builds and never really something that is 100% opitimal.

Edited by IamMe

 

I AM ME!
I love you all.

 

 

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The skill tree systems seems to be based on giving players straight up more power based on playtime.

 

The system seems to also limit player choice when wanting to be most effective.

 

Long term, 3 years from now, Veteran players are going to have TONS of these skills unlocked. A few complete Archetypes. They'll be able to pick a few different thinks and be competitive.

 

A new player wants to start playing Crowfall. They're immediately at a disadvantage. Straight up % stat worse naked than a Vet also naked.

 

Give them 6 months. They've now completed one Archetype. They can be competitive with that, but really are now at a disadvantage for wanting to play something else.

 

The system punishes new players, and limits choice.

 

I think completely abandoning it would be better than having it.

Well I agree that the skill trees need a complete overhaul but not because of the disadvantage new players will have. Its because the skills you train seem to be just straight stat boost. I don't see anything that would really make one knight fell any different from another. You want to do more damage or be more tanky, that's the choices.

 

For why I think the passive system will work in crowfall far better than any other mmo, mainly eve since that's the only one I know of that did it right, is the vessel system on top of the campaign system. At the beginning of a campaign you will be limited to what you can bring in. So people might not even bring in a vessel that can match the skill level they are at. At which point the vessel that you are fighting in will make more of a difference than your skills. Only time when that person might become stronger is if he gets a stronger vessel which from how I see the crafting system works now, won't be as easy as just finding someone to make it for you.

 

I believe in most campaigns everyone will start nearly even, you will see a difference later on in the campaign but it will give you more then enough time to hit your peak and start causing havok before you have to start choosing your fights more carefully. *unrelated suggestion: I would like for item quality to be somewhat visible on the enemy. Like a number value on their health bar or something that way the people can know if he is walking into a massacre or not.* But with this being more of a team oriented game you should have BAMFs on your said too. If you are gear capped then try to get those guys gear capped too.

 

I could be wrong and this system can flop but I really can't wait to see how it turns out.

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You seem not to realize that OF COURSE VETS WILL BE MORE POWERFUL THAN A NEW PLAYER. What nonsense is this? This is going to be an mmo with progression, therefore, characters will get stronger inversely proportional to the amount of playtime they can give. 

 

Your argument is as old as multiplayer gaming itself. In the end it is always discarded, or the progression is removed.

 

If one argued that new players would be put off by starting at a disadvantage, well, i have to disagree. New players have never seemed to mind starting at a disadvantage in other games, and form what we can tell this won't be other games. If you put the time and practice into this game, and learn how to play your role, you will be at an advantage to those who have not, regardless of stats.

 

ALSO, everytime combat is mentioned it is usually assumed that combat will be 1v1. But this is likely to rarely be the case, and in combat where numbers are greater than 1v1, the relative skill level or stats of an individual player loses efficacy in favor of stratagems and planning.

 

Think of ANY MoBA, it really doesn't matter how awesome you are. You can be a legit MLG gamer, consistently rank top dmg and kills etc. and unless the other members of your team have some sort of cohesion and can work effectively as a team. You. Will. Lose. Everytime? Probably not. You will eventually run against a team as uncoordinated as your own and get lucky. I have personally been on teams where each individual player maintains impressive scores for their role, and yet victory eluded us because we were so caught up doing our thing, that we ignored each other.

 

Long story short. Tactics > Stats

                       Teamwork > Skill

                          Planning > Time spent Playing

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You forget Diminishing Returns. A newbie skills up faster than a vet, so they'll catch up quicker than a vet can pull ahead.

 

I, personally, think that the skill tree forces choices, not limits them.

I think it needs more choice. And more importantly, more choices that matter more.

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The problem isnt that you are ~12% better with a 3 year head start (which any competetive player can tell you is easily compensatable by skill) but that the tree as so terribly designed. Well not terribly designed but barely designed.

 

Ziz already said it. You might as well just pay for gear and be better then a pure fighter. Can't we at least copy stuff from moba's?

"After landing CC you get a shield"

"Crits heal you"

"Consecutive attacks deal increased damage"

 

Believe they've said the current system is a placeholder, but I wonder how much so.

 

I was/am really hoping for something more in line with MOBAs or whatever game that provide more options and creative ways to build a character beyond straight vertical number gains.

 

Clearly we aren't going to get 20 new abilities from passive training, but there are countless ways to spice it up.

 

Balance and simply the time it costs to do so is an issue, but right now it is almost not worth it at all and they might as well just focus solely on gear as being what matters. At least it can be customized and be lost, allowing a dynamic system. Instead of static +5% crit after a month of doing nothing.

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Believe they've said the current system is a placeholder, but I wonder how much so.

 

I was/am really hoping for something more in line with MOBAs or whatever game that provide more options and creative ways to build a character beyond straight vertical number gains.

 

Clearly we aren't going to get 20 new abilities from passive training, but there are countless ways to spice it up.

 

Balance and simply the time it costs to do so is an issue, but right now it is almost not worth it at all and they might as well just focus solely on gear as being what matters. At least it can be customized and be lost, allowing a dynamic system. Instead of static +5% crit after a month of doing nothing.

 

Def hope for something kinda like how mobas have as well, crit heals or reduce armor etc, Tho i still think the gap between new players to be truly viable and vets needs to be a closer, Vets should have more options, not jus be flat out stronger. Also its easy to argue oh sure get the best gear but the best gear is VERY costly in mats time and whatever ingame currency is used. Someone who has played games where armor decay really hurts or gear is dropped isnt just gonna pop the best gear every time he or she might go out. Its just not realistic, not when your gonna take a big durability hit if zerged down or ambushed.

Edited by krevra

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They definitely are crappy now, but they are also temporary. We do need better, more impacting skill trees, percentage increase is Vanilla WoW stuff, we all know how boring that was, having a skill tree that has 3 or 4 meaningful choices and a bunch of +1% damage that everyone just has to get so they can move on to the next level. Lazy thinking.


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Guild Leader/ High Elder

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They definitely are crappy now, but they are also temporary. We do need better, more impacting skill trees, percentage increase is Vanilla WoW stuff, we all know how boring that was, having a skill tree that has 3 or 4 meaningful choices and a bunch of +1% damage that everyone just has to get so they can move on to the next level. Lazy thinking.

It may be lazy thinking now, but it will not be when min/maxers are trying to get best bang for buck out of their builds. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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It may be lazy thinking now, but it will not be when min/maxers are trying to get best bang for buck out of their builds. 

As a principle though, It still is a pretty lame way of adding customization (making passive % increases that is).

 

Some of those are ok, but right now they are pretty much all there is. I get it, it is all temporary, they will work on skill trees a lot yet (or so I hope). Closer to launch, I hope the skill trees cause more impacting change in ACTIVE play style besides just number increase, at least on the Archetype skill trees, where we will move to archetype specializations and such. I get that the Crow trees will be more full of passive stuff since they are essentially supporting the play style you choose on your archetype.


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Guild Leader/ High Elder

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I don't see a need to scrap the entire system, I like the way EVE online did it and I like the direction of it in Crowfall. Granted the benefits and choices need to be more interesting but I think the reason it is so generic right now is beacuse it is alpha 3. Have to agree with Gcheilan regarding ingame progress, vets have an advantage over new players in all MMORPGs and that does not need to change, you can grind up your favourite archetype until the difference between you and someone who played longer than you is so minimal it just doesn't matter anymore.


Invincibility lies in the defence, the chance of victory; in the attack.

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As a principle though, It still is a pretty lame way of adding customization (making passive % increases that is).

 

Some of those are ok, but right now they are pretty much all there is. I get it, it is all temporary, they will work on skill trees a lot yet (or so I hope). Closer to launch, I hope the skill trees cause more impacting change in ACTIVE play style besides just number increase, at least on the Archetype skill trees, where we will move to archetype specializations and such. I get that the Crow trees will be more full of passive stuff since they are essentially supporting the play style you choose on your archetype.

But not all of it is going to be passive, they are just certain routes... and passives serve an important function too, kind of like different weapon and armor upgrades in rts games.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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