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DASHENDEAVOR

Sorry. I really think you need to gut the skill tree system.

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Yes things like that are nice, but they should definitely NOT be in the passive skill tree, while you could argue that was a thing PoE did right, at the same time it was also kind of a thing they did wrong, since it was next to impossible to respec a character you had made a mistake, well you pretty much have to reroll. And well since this is an account-wide passive skill tree we have in CF, you can not reroll that. Where things like that would fit most in CF would be the advantages/disadvantages, you can select when inhabiting a vessel first time, and most likely it is things kinda like that except you dont ahve the positive and negative put together but split up with positives in adv, and negatives in disadv. and then to be able to select more adv, you have to choose some disadv. first

Maybe I dont understand, but the Universal things are what is account wide and affects ALL characters, I am ONLY talking about each Archtype build. So anything like this would ONLY impact that specific class/archtype...

 

Which is why I said what I did above "I think Universal is FINE being a bland X% increase or whatever." and then "Where the CHOICE should be very clear is in the Archtype build options."

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He is trying to say in a passive system where you can't respec, negatives are overall just a bad way to go about it. Have something like 100% crit chance from behind or auto attacks have the ability to make a frost AOE blast on contact is fine. As long as you aren't losing something else for it.

Edited by silhaku

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Maybe I dont understand, but the Universal things are what is account wide and affects ALL characters, I am ONLY talking about each Archtype build. So anything like this would ONLY impact that specific class/archtype...

 

Which is why I said what I did above "I think Universal is FINE being a bland X% increase or whatever." and then "Where the CHOICE should be very clear is in the Archtype build options."

Hmm might misunderstand you or not but when you said differentiate between universals and AT's, I took as as either the general part in the passive tree, or the AT part but still in the skill tree, and neither of those as I said cant be respeced, so if you say put something in there like the one that use life instead of mana for maybe a confessor, yes that would only affect the confessor, but it would affect EVERY SINGLE CONFESSOR ever you choose to use, and you might after find out you really cant paly with that on, so you basically made every single confessor useless for you, and there is no way to change that.

That is a REALLY REALLY bad idea.

Where if you put it into the adv/disadv system fine, you screwed over you one vessel, well you can get a new one, and not make the same mistake on the new one

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Its just so boring, like 80% of it is just a copy pasta.

 

X increase to heavy armor

X increase to medium armor

X increase to light armor

X damage

X crit

X crit damage

X health

X mana

X stamina

 

Is almost the entire thing... and then theirs the giant all including skills tha increase almost all of the above but in 1 node.

 

 

The only truely interesting thing I can think of is the Knight mount speed, which is understandably copied by leggionairre

Good thing those are just placeholders

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These will not correlate to Crowfall, but to give an EXAMPLE of how dynamic POE has made some of their big "capstone" nodes in their skill tree:

 

Those are more of what I am hoping for. Dynamic choices that allow us to get creative. However, I do see issues as well as Gummiel pointed out.

 

would affect EVERY SINGLE CONFESSOR ever you choose to use, and you might after find out you really cant paly with that on, so you basically made every single confessor useless for you, and there is no way to change that.

That is a REALLY REALLY bad idea.

Where if you put it into the adv/disadv system fine, you screwed over you one vessel, well you can get a new one, and not make the same mistake on the new one

 

Comes down to what the devs want us to focus on.

 

Will it be more meta based allowing for short term mistakes and adapting or long term choice/time investment coming with possible "poor" choices.

 

I'm fine with general passive training being bland generic stat boosts, but I hope Archetype and especially Promos have something to make them stick out and allow creative builds. Maybe it is too much work, but I hoped that each Promo would play differently than each other and the Archetype itself. Not "I have 5% more crit and you have 5% more block, we are unique roles!"

 

Tying the more creative options to Adv/Disadv allows mistakes to be made and vessel jumping to correct. Also plays nicely with FOTM builds.

 

Gear, vessels, disciplines and I assume Adv/Disadv already lend themselves to FOTM and dynamic builds, the passive system is the only one that has possible long term impact.

 

Are choices supposed to matter long term or only short?

 

I do see that tying POE like +/- attributes does allow issue down the line when devs adjust or we simply unlock things and see that our 5 months of planning was not good. Would be unfortunate and despite the "hardcore" mentality some have, being stuck with something that could potentially hinder us for a while wouldn't fly too long.

 

Hopefully they balance it out and don't go all in for a shallow every choice is fine system nor a everything you do today will impact you years from now without anyway to correct.

 

Good thing those are just placeholders

 

To what extent? 

Edited by APE

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Hmm might misunderstand you or not but when you said differentiate between universals and AT's, I took as as either the general part in the passive tree, or the AT part but still in the skill tree, and neither of those as I said cant be respeced, so if you say put something in there like the one that use life instead of mana for maybe a confessor, yes that would only affect the confessor, but it would affect EVERY SINGLE CONFESSOR ever you choose to use, and you might after find out you really cant paly with that on, so you basically made every single confessor useless for you, and there is no way to change that.

That is a REALLY REALLY bad idea.

Where if you put it into the adv/disadv system fine, you screwed over you one vessel, well you can get a new one, and not make the same mistake on the new one

Yup and I get this, and thats why I ALSO have proposed (maybe it wasnt in this thread) but a "respec" option. That allows you to take back all your experience gained, los maybe 20% of it, and then re-apply it instantly again.

 

So say you trained up 12 nodes in the Confessor tree and like you said there is a "use life instead of mana" node you selected. You feel you screwed up that character, or dislike that node, you can respec your Confessor tree (at a cost) and then get all your EXP back, with a 20% penalty, and now you would be able to re-invest ~10 nodes (you had 12) and NOT select that "blood Magic" node.

 

This idea IS more geared towards just having one of each vessel, which I think is just fine. I mean... on the CURRENT system, why would you want more than 1? It doesnt make much sense to me. 

 

I think having builds, creates diversity. You WOULD need to allow respec ability otherwise yes - it creates a problem now that you took a controversial node such as that.

 

But this is what adds flavor to the game. 

 

 

I just personally feel the skill tree system is very bland and weak. Not only is it pure stats, its also 100% passive training, which is just kinda boring to me. I want to get online, play, and feel I "level up" certain aspects of my character while playing.

 

In theory, you could have a guy start day 1, never play, train all his trees up, and THEN play without ever stepping foot in the game. Sure he will need to do ALOT of work when it comes to crafting and gear, but it just feels boring to me.

 

I really like passive training, as it allows people with lives to feel competitive and also I think there is a "hidden genius" about it as it makes you THINK about your characters while in RL... Thinking "I wonder how far I am in XXX training" etc. This keeps players engaged, makes them check the game constantly while at home and lends itself to make people WANT to play when they get home - feeling as if they "progressed" while away. This is brilliant.

 

What I think is lacking are:

- Active training - ways to level up while IN the game itself. Speeding up the process. When I log in, and play for 1 hour, I want a sense of accomplishment. A sense of feeling I did something and got somewhere when I get off. Its the small progression like that, that this game needs.

 

- Diversity - I want to know that MY choices in my talent tree/build are unique and I may have a build that others dont. I like unique options, to play "my way". This is why POE is SO appealing to many players and why people who beat the game many times over are CONSTANTLY trying new characters. They want to test new builds, new play styles, create interesting options. Play THEIR way. Want a character with NO life, you can make that with an ES/CI build in POE. Want a character with no mana who spends his life to attack? You can make that. Want a melee character who fights with his FISTS? You can make that. Want one that only uses a shield? YOu can make it. Want a melee ranger? YUP! Want a guy who cant crit but can never miss? YUP! Want a guy who only attacks via casting totems? YUP! Heck you want a guy who essentially suicides by lighting HIMSELF on fire to kill those around him? YUP! 

 

All of those options allow people to make VERY creative builds. I think this is what people want. Unique build CHOICES. Now I do think in a game like Crowfall you need limits. A "tank" needs to be held within his "tank" archtype. DPS should be DPS etc. But within those archtypes I think thats where you offer some unique options.

 

Maybe you create a node like: Can Never crit. Gain X% of attack as "life leech". Or something. There is a good pro/con. This also makes it so all the crit nodes are useless to you.

 

Thats just one example. You can give DPS options of being even MORE glass cannon: "Spend life instead of mana. Increases all damage you deal by X%". So now itll hurt your HP to cast, but you deal more damage.

 

Things like this could be very fun and create unique builds... Even if it WERENT this way, it could modify abilities instead. Add something but remove something. Maybe on Myrmidon as one example: Double Slash: Increases the damage by X% but converts all upfront damage to bleed damage. So here is a pro vs con. No upfront damage, but more DOT. You might offer the reverse as well: Bleed damage converted to upfront damage and increased by X%. These are just ideas that you could do to modify each and every ability and give "build choices".

 

 

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Yup and I get this, and thats why I ALSO have proposed (maybe it wasnt in this thread) but a "respec" option. That allows you to take back all your experience gained, los maybe 20% of it, and then re-apply it instantly again.

 

So say you trained up 12 nodes in the Confessor tree and like you said there is a "use life instead of mana" node you selected. You feel you screwed up that character, or dislike that node, you can respec your Confessor tree (at a cost) and then get all your EXP back, with a 20% penalty, and now you would be able to re-invest ~10 nodes (you had 12) and NOT select that "blood Magic" node.

 

This idea IS more geared towards just having one of each vessel, which I think is just fine. I mean... on the CURRENT system, why would you want more than 1? It doesnt make much sense to me.

You will HAVE to get multiple vessels eventually as just like equipment you vessels also decay and eventually will be unusable. But beside that, that is not even the only reason, the day you go out to do some small scale fighting you might use a high-quality vessel, to give you a bigger edge in combat, the next day in a big scale siege where you cant really avoid dieing a lot you might want to use a lower quality (but cheaper vessel) as well you will die, and the effect of a single players contribution while still important does diminish with more player, so the lower stats due to your lower quality vessel wont make a great difference for the outcome of the siege. No offence, but this almost make it sound like you haven't properly read up on some of the basic foundations of CF, if that is true you might want to consider doing so, as this game is so VASTLY different from any other MMO out there, you literally can not compare it to any MMO I know of without having to put a LOT of "but"s in

 

I think having builds, creates diversity. You WOULD need to allow respec ability otherwise yes - it creates a problem now that you took a controversial node such as that.

 

But this is what adds flavor to the game.

But if you a respec of the passive tree and then that kind of nodes, how is it any different than not having the respec and have those thins via the adv/disadv system instead? Seems like just 2 ways of achieving the same goal

 

 

I just personally feel the skill tree system is very bland and weak. Not only is it pure stats, its also 100% passive training, which is just kinda boring to me. I want to get online, play, and feel I "level up" certain aspects of my character while playing.

 

In theory, you could have a guy start day 1, never play, train all his trees up, and THEN play without ever stepping foot in the game. Sure he will need to do ALOT of work when it comes to crafting and gear, but it just feels boring to me.

While that is, yes, true is theory you can be pretty sure a guy who lvled up passively for months but never played the game will get recked by the person who actively played for a week or 2, simply because he knows how to play the game

 

 

I really like passive training, as it allows people with lives to feel competitive and also I think there is a "hidden genius" about it as it makes you THINK about your characters while in RL... Thinking "I wonder how far I am in XXX training" etc. This keeps players engaged, makes them check the game constantly while at home and lends itself to make people WANT to play when they get home - feeling as if they "progressed" while away. This is brilliant.

 

What I think is lacking are:

- Active training - ways to level up while IN the game itself. Speeding up the process. When I log in, and play for 1 hour, I want a sense of accomplishment. A sense of feeling I did something and got somewhere when I get off. Its the small progression like that, that this game needs.

There have actually been talk about being able to do some limited active training on addition to the passive one, no idea if that still planned or not though.

 

 

- Diversity - I want to know that MY choices in my talent tree/build are unique and I may have a build that others dont. I like unique options, to play "my way". This is why POE is SO appealing to many players and why people who beat the game many times over are CONSTANTLY trying new characters. They want to test new builds, new play styles, create interesting options. Play THEIR way. Want a character with NO life, you can make that with an ES/CI build in POE. Want a character with no mana who spends his life to attack? You can make that. Want a melee character who fights with his FISTS? You can make that. Want one that only uses a shield? YOu can make it. Want a melee ranger? YUP! Want a guy who cant crit but can never miss? YUP! Want a guy who only attacks via casting totems? YUP! Heck you want a guy who essentially suicides by lighting HIMSELF on fire to kill those around him? YUP! 

 

All of those options allow people to make VERY creative builds. I think this is what people want. Unique build CHOICES. Now I do think in a game like Crowfall you need limits. A "tank" needs to be held within his "tank" archtype. DPS should be DPS etc. But within those archtypes I think thats where you offer some unique options.

 

Maybe you create a node like: Can Never crit. Gain X% of attack as "life leech". Or something. There is a good pro/con. This also makes it so all the crit nodes are useless to you.

 

Thats just one example. You can give DPS options of being even MORE glass cannon: "Spend life instead of mana. Increases all damage you deal by X%". So now itll hurt your HP to cast, but you deal more damage.

 

Things like this could be very fun and create unique builds... Even if it WERENT this way, it could modify abilities instead. Add something but remove something. Maybe on Myrmidon as one example: Double Slash: Increases the damage by X% but converts all upfront damage to bleed damage. So here is a pro vs con. No upfront damage, but more DOT. You might offer the reverse as well: Bleed damage converted to upfront damage and increased by X%. These are just ideas that you could do to modify each and every ability and give "build choices".

There will be plenty of options for unqie builds, between choosing what to train in the passive tree, what disciplines to use, what advantages and disadvantages to use, what gear to equip, and there might be more I am forgetting about Edited by Gummiel

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Skill tree is only ONE part of the cutomization, there are also well the gear that can have quite different things on them not to mention the disciplines

 

And the starting runes that will also allow changes to your build that is vessel based and scales with the vessel quality...   There are actually four systems that provide customization.  Passive Skill choices, Gear quality and choices, Discipline runes, and Character Creation when entering a new vessel.   None of these are close to being fleshed out...   New players are not going to be near as strong and those who have been in game awhile, but it isn't like leveling based mmos where a level 1 cannot even hit a level 50 as the stats won't be that far off nor the total health...   like the devs said a group of 4 brand new players can hit and damage/kill a vet player, likely have a few deaths.  That is way more in favor of new players than most mmos.

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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Anyone joining 3 years from now was recommended by a friend(in most cases)

 

Networking is a skill as any.  There is no skill requirement to wear good gear so if properly geared under a groups leadership buff, on day one you can gut the most seasoned of foe with enough twitch of the mouse.

 

For those that join late I say this, make friends.

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Anyone joining 3 years from now was recommended by a friend(in most cases)

 

Networking is a skill as any.  There is no skill requirement to wear good gear so if properly geared under a groups leadership buff, on day one you can gut the most seasoned of foe with enough twitch of the mouse.

 

For those that join late I say this, make friends.

They could also add more social focused skills.

 

For example a chain of skills that lets those in your group and close behave as if they had already finished the basic archetype training.  If they already have, no benefit, but if they have not, they get to act like they have.

 

Something in the leadership line but not additive like the current ones.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Here's some thought's.

The Archetype skills are not there as a means to customize a character, they are there to provide stats one would typically see via leveling up a character by delivering bear butts to some guy who really wants 6 bear butts for some reason. We are using a model where you gain those stats passively over time and will eventually get them all.

 

The Archetype skills by design try to avoid doing things with powers. If we put in (cause we forget), we tend to want to pull it out.

All of the Archetype customization is planned through systems that we haven't built yet. Disciplines, advantages, disadvantages, class promotions. I know it is easy to look at the 1 system you can play right now in Big World (skills) and think of ways to make it better. However the other systems are in the pipeline and should handle the desire to make 2 Knights feel different.

Right now the Archetype trees are functioning how they were envisioned. Progression skills which raise stats -> that level up over time ->given enough time the player can get them all.

Let's talk Universal skills!
These skill trees are far different. They have many nodes which grant unique pieces of gameplay or functionality. Yes over time the player could get them all, but we are looking at at least 10+ years time frame, so it is highly improbable especially as we add more content the amount of time will continue to rise.

 

Due of the extended time frame people will either focus on a sphere of gameplay (combat, crafting, exploration) or more than likely get a little bit of each. If I had to make a guess, getting some exploration/harvesting skills initially will be much more of a priority than combat stats. (Yeah you may hit 10 pts harder and have 2% more critical hit chance, but I can get wood grubs from trees and make campfires where ever which means I don't starve)

 

Within a social group of friends or guildmates people will focus. One of your friends will beeline for the leadership tree, another might beeline for the Survivalist tree, etc. Figure out how you can make yourself a unique piece of the social puzzle.

 

Catch up mechanics!

Yes people joining after 3 years of vets having played will be behind. (As Todd and I like to say these are problems for futureTodd and futureBlair. These btw are problems we love to have, it means we have been working on the game for 3 years after launching and folks still want more!) This will be the amount of time we spent building the entire project, I am sure we can have a model for latecomers to catch up to some degree. The archetype trees are easy, as the time to train them is months. (If you were to go into any MMO years later, you still have to level up) Universal trees are a bit more tricky but this isn't an entirely unknown problem. I am sure we will arrive at a good solution.

 

What you can do to help!

Suggest more STATs you would like to see for the Archetype trees.

Suggest more pieces of gameplay you would like to see for the Universal trees. (Or heck, even a mini skill tree)

 

Example. We didn't have a way to get food in early Big World testing. There were no NPCs to kill! So I created and added the pine nuts and wood grubs to the trees as an alternate loot table when you harvested trees. Later I turned nuts/grubs into scavenged ingredients which now required you to cook them. Even later I made them require campfires to cook and added craftable campfires. This led to a plan for a mini skill tree called "Survivalist" that will contain:

 

the ability for the bonus ingredient loot tables to trigger if you have the appropriate skills trained,

the ability to grant to cooking recipes,

the ability to grant the recipes for the campfires.

I am sure it will grow even bigger as we find other things that make sense to put in it.

Hope this helps clear up the purpose of the various trees and general thoughts behind them.

 


Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
Follow us on Twitter 
@CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook
 

 

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All of the Archetype customization is planned through systems that we haven't built yet. Disciplines, advantages, disadvantages, class promotions.

 

I have high hopes for these systems! Disciplines really have the potential to give people the level of customization that seems missing when looking at archetypes and skills alone.

 

Thanks for adding grubs to the game, btw.

Edited by Jah

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The Archetype skills are not there as a means to customize a character, they are there to provide stats one would typically see via leveling up a character by delivering bear butts to some guy who really wants 6 bear butts for some reason. We are using a model where you gain those stats passively over time and will eventually get them all.

 

 

I understand. I hate it, but I understand.  I was not expecting "typical" from AC on character building given Todd's background.

 

 

 

 

The Archetype skills by design try to avoid doing things with powers. If we put in (cause we forget), we tend to want to pull it out.

 

Same thing. I understand. I just don't like it nor agree there's a reason to approach it this way past it being easy.

 

 

All of the Archetype customization is planned through systems that we haven't built yet. Disciplines, advantages, disadvantages, class promotions. I know it is easy to look at the 1 system you can play right now in Big World (skills) and think of ways to make it better. However the other systems are in the pipeline and should handle the desire to make 2 Knights feel different.

Right now the Archetype trees are functioning how they were envisioned. Progression skills which raise stats -> that level up over time ->given enough time the player can get them all.

 

I like the second bit of promises. I don't like the first bit of reality. I just don't see a reason the AT training (nor basic combat training) to ignore character building and diversification. I guess the question is: "why is less customization a better idea?" Todd has made it clear we will be able to make bad characters. We will be allowed to fail. This seems inconsistent with those goals. So far I've professed blind trust, but if this game is really supposed to go live in 2017 then character building sure feels late to the party to me.

 

 

What you can do to help!

Suggest more STATs you would like to see for the Archetype trees.

Suggest more pieces of gameplay you would like to see for the Universal trees. (Or heck, even a mini skill tree)

 

There are a million things that can be done here that would be worlds more interesting than the current AT trees. I'll sit down and name a bunch later.

 

I don't think the universal trees nor the AT trees are very interesting at the moment, unfortunately. Not candy coated here, but I think a lot of folks feel that way.

 

edit: I forgot to add something important and Daworf's post reminded me. Despite the fact that I disagree with your design philosophy for the game related to character progression and diversity, I appreciate your willingness to put your honest agenda out there to discuss in a transparent fashion. That's really rare and awesome. GG.

Edited by coolwaters

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What you can do to help!

Suggest more STATs you would like to see for the Archetype trees.

Suggest more pieces of gameplay you would like to see for the Universal trees. (Or heck, even a mini skill tree)

 

Really great to get this visibility on your thoughts. Specifically to the point I quote, it's hard to suggest stats to see.

 

The reason being, differences we're seeing, and the data at present don't feel like they're having a big difference, or if there are bugs resulting in no change from trains.

 

Using armor mitigation, for example - it's unlikely until we dump many more points, errrrr I mean hours, of trains that we can identify if that was a good choice.

Character customisation really gets interesting.

 

I'll try and draw a Shadowbane analogy.There, on the test servers (after point refining was implemented), it was easy to see the return on investment for a certain train or path, and easy to back out of potential mistakes.

 

At present, CF feels very cookie cutter. But, as you say, this is because not everything is in.

 

So, knowing what else to suggest is hard (impossible) at present - there's not yet any real RoI.

 

I would give my left testicle to have a huge amount of char customisation, let us make huge mistakes, let me pump strength into my confessor (and make him/her taller as each point of strength goes in)...

 

Also, dont forget those socials. ;-D

 

 

 

Post Edit : Jeepers, triple -W- post. Blair, look outside your window - we are stalking you, see the Comcast van? We are inside it. Winterblades is omni-Blair-present, prep the restraining order (which we can also help you obtain as well).

Edited by daworf

"Proud" owner of the domains : http://www.crowfall2.com and http://www.guinecean.com

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Well it's good to know what direction you are taking with the skill trees. I think they could be used better in other ways but knowing the direction helps me focus my efforts to refine the skill tree in that direction.

 

I wish we knew more about the different campaign rings but that will come later in the testing phase.

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Thanks Blair, we were all expecting an info from you guys.

 

I only have one problem though. If all the customization is in the Disciplines, advantages, disadvantages and class promotions i fear we will be too dependent in our vessels since those things are attached to them. I like the vessels system but if a lose my favorite vessel and dont have other equal (exactly equal) i fear i will get a little mad because i plan to run only one char.

 

What if i have a rare discipline? Will i have to just accept that now i cant play the same way? In the full loot rulesets will i need to buy a new vessel after each death? Now that would be hardcore...

Edited by BarriaKarl

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They have many nodes which grant unique pieces of gameplay or functionality. 

 

Except they dont?

 

Not under combat anyway. And again, in the only thing in the entire game that is permanent, Make. Choices. Matter. beyond who gets a few stats first.

 

 

Suggest more pieces of gameplay you would like to see for the Universal trees. (Or heck, even a mini skill tree)

 

That makes me sad, there are currently tons of threads making suggestions for the skill trees, this makes it seem like these have been completely ignored.

Edited by Vectious

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Thanks Blair, we were all expecting an info from you guys.

 

I only have one problem though. If all the customization is in the Disciplines, advantages, disadvantages and class promotions i fear we will be too dependent in our vessels since those things are attached to them. I like the vessels system but if a lose my favorite vessel and dont have other equal (exactly equal) i fear i will get a little mad because i plan to run only one char.

 

What if i have a rare discipline? Will i have to just accept that now i cant play the same way? In the full loot rulesets will i need to buy a new vessel after each death? Now that would be hardcore...

 

This is a good point. If all the inherent crow-stuff that we can't lose on death is fairly generic (the skill system), and most of the customization is tied to things that can be damaged or looted on death depending on the ruleset (promotion, discipline, advantages, gear choices), does that mean we can potentially lose everything that makes our character unique when we die? Might we be forced to switch to a more generic vessel/gear if we die without a backup?

 

If it works out that way, characters will be far more generic on average in hardcore rulesets, with customization linked to how successful you are (i.e. how much stuff you can get without dying and losing it). A pvper who never dies might get to build his ideal unique character eventually, if he even dares to use rarer disciplines or gear, while others may be stuck with whatever generic stuff is easiest to acquire.

 

That possibility is.. concerning. I'm okay with heavy losses on death, but I'd prefer the things we lose to be the other way around: losing generic things that are fairly straightforward to replace (like the boring stat bonuses on the skill tree), and not losing the things that actually set your character apart from the rest.

Edited by Avloren

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Its good to see you guys at ArtCraft open at what your intent with your systems is. Sadly I must say that if this is the intent of the skill system, then it seems like a waste of a good system and insted making something I dont really see why we need in Crowfall. If its intent is just to boost our stats, the same way grinding for the next tier of gear would be, then it end up at something thats not really rewarding or fun (I understand that it cant be to rewarding, since that would make you op against a new player), and I dont really see the game needing it. The concept of  spending time to have a tiny bit more damage, crit chance and armor for no other reason than to boost your number and to stay competitive feels a bit like just having levels for the sake of levels, or that every mmo have to have quests cause every one has them. Right now when I look at it (and I might be wrong), the skill system seems like a time sink that dont give anything back, and after having so many interesting and fresh ideas for this game I know you can do the same for the skill system as well. Because this skill system reflect more what the game try not to be, insted of what it wants to be.

Edited by martar

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