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Let's make the Knight great again


Arkade
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I have to imagine, or at least hope, that the devs have something in mind to make the knight more viable and fun to play. However, since we haven't been given any hints yet as to what changes might be coming the knight's way, I figured it was a good time to offer up some suggestions. 

 

Right now, the knight is all about Block. It's really the only thing the knight does well. The knight has more HP than other archetypes, but that isn't enough to make the knight a tank. Tanks require additional mitigation and the only way to get it is to wear plate armor, which reduces our already poor damage and speed. I'm not even sure the mitigation from plate is working. My knight has 3 pieces of plate armor yet my mitigation numbers are the same whether I'm wearing them or not. Maybe it's just a display bug.

 

The biggest problem with the knight is that we can either mitigate damage (Block) or do damage (all other abilities), but can't do both at the same time. The Myrmidon can do both with Berserk. Yes, it comes with a risk, but that is a much more fun play style IMO. Who wants to sit behind a shield until his stamina runs out?

 

Let's take a look at the knight's other abilities:

 

Pursuit: Buggy, sometimes sends me sliding far away past the target. Given the faster pace of combat, the stun is now way too short.

Shield Slam: For an ability that automatically crits when charged over 66%, this ability does pitiful damage. I'm lucky to break 2k even while using a crafted mace and shield.

Shield Swipe/Bash: Buggy, the first ability sometimes fails to fully animate, resulting in no damage.

Onslaught: This entire combo chain is pretty bad. The damage is weak and the knockdown difficult to execute against live, moving targets.

Noble Blood/Oath of Will: These are both terrible. The damage from Noble Blood is weak and in the time it takes to cast it, the target will have eaten up most/all of the shield. Oath of Will is just a tacked on ability that does very little to improve a poor resource system.

Chain Attack: Will this ever work correctly? The Myrmidon's net works so much better.

LMB: Weak damage and returns an insulting amount of mana. 

Whirling Leap: This is still the lamest "C" ability in the game. The physics are still suspect, sometimes pulling a target in only to send the target sliding away again. The damage is weak and with no root or stun, targets can easily get away before the knight can do anything else.

 

Here are my suggestions for changes:

 

  1. Increase the damage on Shield Slam significantly.
  2. Increase the duration of Pursuit and Shield Bash stuns.
  3. Do whatever you have to do to make Chain Attack work reliably.
  4. Each attack that is blocked restores a decent amount of mana. Each attack that hits the target restores a small amount of stamina.
  5. Damage is increased based on associated mitigations (ie. Crushing damage is increased as Crushing mitigation is increased)
  6. Replace the Onslaught combo, the Noble Blood combo and Whirling Leap with new abilities.

New #4 combo to replace Onslaught:

 

No Defense

The knight strikes the target, hitting for A to B + C% weapon damage and lowering the target's physical mitigations by X% for 30 seconds. Effect can stack up to 3 times. Each use refreshes the timer. Cooldown 5 seconds.

 

"A" Combo: Toughen Up

The knight strikes the target, hitting for A to B + C% weapon damage and increasing his physical mitigations by X% for 60 seconds. Effect can stack up to 3 times. Each use refreshes the timer. Cooldown 5 seconds.

 

"B" Combo: Insulated

The knight strikes the target, hitting for A to B + C% weapon damage and increasing his elemental mitigations by X% for 60 seconds. Effect can stack up to 3 times. Each use refreshes the timer. Cooldown 5 seconds.

 

New #5 ability to replace Noble Blood/Oath of Will:

 

Best Defense

The knight casts a spell that increases all mitigations for the group by X% for 20 seconds. Cooldown 30 seconds.

 

New "C" ability to replace Whirling Leap:

 

Counterattack

Each time the knight blocks an attack, a counter is increased by 1. When the counter reaches X, this ability becomes active. It has zero cost and does a large amount of damage that bypasses all mitigation. For 10 seconds after executing Counterattack, the knight's attacks regen mana rather than cost mana.

 

The idea with these changes was to give the knight mitigation that isn't tied to armor (but takes some effort to use) and doesn't require the knight to be blocking, while at the same time adding an interesting mechanic for the archetype.

 

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Edited by Arkade
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Two things:

 

One:

I actually like the Onsluaght Combo, but Onslaught, Brutal Strike, and Twin Assault need something added to them. For example: I would give Twin Assault Hemorrhage (which I think reduces Bleed Mitigation) and Brutal Strike a Dizzy. Well, whatever is added to them, it has to compliment, or supplement, both Obliterate and Shockwave, since they combo into each other, and Onslaught would have to have something to either set up a knockdown or a bleed.

 

And Two:

No Defense

The knight strikes the target, hitting for A to B + C% weapon damage and lowering the target's physical mitigations by X% for 30 seconds. Effect can stack up to 3 times. Each use refreshes the timer. Cooldown 5 seconds.

 

Reducing a target's physical mitigation is strictly a Support power (Ranger used to do this on their Melee LMB, but they removed it because they said armor break was a Support power), so this idea is a no-go for a Tank.

 

All in all, nice suggestions!

KGV_sig.png

You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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knight is strong now.

abit decrease C power cooldown and 3 power cooldown on last combo (which stun)

mb decrease resource cost on skills and this is best fast attacking dynamic class with possibility to survive about 20 secound against alot of incoming dmg

and fix 6 power to better aim (it is missed on moving target even if your cross on target most of the time)

 

I think more options on blocking and dmg reflecting will be UP this class dramatically (reflect incoming dmg first 2 seconds after start blocking with cooldown / reflecting % of incoming dmg while 5 power is on etc)

 

BUT they told this phase of test is not about balance

crowfall pvp makkonMyrmidon statement: rangefall

Discord makkon#8550

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I actually kind of like the knight. I have not played him much but he does not seem to be meant as a damage dealer. At least not that I can see, since there doesn't seem to be a viable way to keep up damage without running out of mana. I think he plays well as an opportunist/crowd controller, meaning you have to be patient with him and go in for the kill only when someone is low, or set up a kill for your teammates. I do like some of these suggestions and I think increasing some of his CC abilities could be worth testing out.

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I take major issue with the Knights current passive and some of his skill tree unlocks. Anything that only takes effect when under 30% health is utterly stupid. I should not be trying to skirt death just to actually do a tiny bit of extra damage and gain a tiny bit of life regen. Maybe the Myrmidon berserker would fit that bill but not the knight.

Edited by Ranik

Shadowbane style advantage / disadvantage disciplines when? ~Yianni 1/21/21

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I actually kind of like the knight. I have not played him much but he does not seem to be meant as a damage dealer. At least not that I can see, since there doesn't seem to be a viable way to keep up damage without running out of mana. I think he plays well as an opportunist/crowd controller, meaning you have to be patient with him and go in for the kill only when someone is low, or set up a kill for your teammates. I do like some of these suggestions and I think increasing some of his CC abilities could be worth testing out.

The knight is not a damage dealer. He's a tank, which is what the Myrmidon is supposed to be as well, yet does a lot more damage. Just compare Shield Slam with Pulverize:

 

Shield Slam:

821-1111 + 97% weapon damage. Automatic crit if charged over 66%

 

Pulverize:

2400-2933 = 267% weapon damage. Automatic crit if charged over 65%

 

They are basically the same ability yet the Myrmidon's does 3 times as much damage. More than that actually, since the Myrm does more damage as he takes damage while Berzerking. AFAIK, Pulverize only hits 1 target and Shield Slam can hit up to 3, but then it's just damage splitting all over again, only worse because knights still do the lower damage amount even against 1 target. I'd rather do the same damage as Pulverize and have the damage split against multiple targets. 

 

Knights can quickly burn through all of their mana and the damage they do can easily be healed. They have no attacks at all that scare anyone. As far as crowd control goes, the knight has been outclassed by other archetypes. The knight's stuns don't last very long and the knockdown and snare are both 3 deep in a combo.

 

The knight really has no role in the game right now and they have the worst resource management of any archetype.

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I think the knight is just fine. Resource management abilities can be unlocked in both the archetype tree and general combat trees that will help resource management. The basic set of skills on the Knight are great in my opinion and don't forget that they will eventually be able to be modified.

I don't think we should be using comparisons between classes, even classes under the same "tank" moniker. They do the same thing in different ways.

IMO the Knight is more slow and methodical about his approach to combat and attempts a more "rope a dope" in some battles, while the Myrmidon  tries to play more of an aggressive in your face, make you panic kind of style.

 

I find that the Knight with the basic set of skills can stick to people like glue if he wants to. Pursuit may even be OPed. chain is great when mages are charging spells at you and your "5" ability with its subsequent power really helps with mana regen in the beginning. A whole lot of potential to chain stun/interrupt people with a "1" max pursuit stun, "4" knockdown, "3" stun, "C" pull/stun. We don't do a lot of damage fast but that is an expected tradeoff and even this will improve with powers/training.

 

I myself am very happy with the vanilla version of the knight, as it was in the last playtest (nov 18-20). OH and nerf legionnaires. lolz.

Eat or be eaten

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On my very first day on the test, I killed a confessor and a druid with the knight. Me being relatively new to this style of mmo, I kinda enjoyed knight ever since.

Sunderin' is my specialty. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well, I get the whole Myrmidon doing way more damage thing. I get wrecked by Myrmidons allll the time. I consider myself a very competitive PVPer and it definitely feels like the Myrmidon's Calzones are way too big. Such is life in Alpha.

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Well, I get the whole Myrmidon doing way more damage thing. I get wrecked by Myrmidons allll the time. I consider myself a very competitive PVPer and it definitely feels like the Myrmidon's Calzones are way too big. Such is life in Alpha.

 

How does your block fare against mirm? I mean, continuously blocking during his berserk should help kill them. I just dont know if knights base hp can last, but it would be ideal with a healer support.

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Admittedly it's been awhile since I played a knight, but:

 

Pursuit: I'd get rid of the after cast animation, it looks cool, but it makes pursuit much harder to use when it actually comes to stunning someone. I'd also increase it from 0.5 to 0.75

 

Shield Smash: I'd change this to a "charge-on-the-move" akin to the ranger's LMB, with a SLIGHT lunge on release if you're x units away from the target.

 

Shield Swipe -> Shield Bash: I would get rid of shield swipe completely, and just have shield bash. Lower the stun from 4s to 2s.

 

Chain Pull: I'd add a "secret combo" that only procs if you hit a wall or other object with it (like a tree). If you decide to use the combo, it PULLS you to the target. Great for closing distances or getting out of trouble, and just fun in general. I'd also add a 2-3s suppress on whatever enemy target you pull, so they can't just dodge / blink away.

 

Twin Assault: I'd apply a healing debuff to it.

 

Noble Blood: Grants all nearby group members a barrier. Remove oath of will.

 

Ultimate - Healing Banner: Knight drops a banner at his position. Banner casts a large heal over time field on the ground that lasts for x seconds.

 

I'd change all his abilities to use stamina or a similar resource. I'd change his block to something similar to reinhardt's shield.

Edited by helix
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Let's look at the Knights passive real quick.

 

Resolve: Heals your for 4% of your maximum health every second. This effect is automatically triggered when dropping below 20% health.

 

In practice the regen lasts long enough for you to get back up to 20% - 30% IE maybe from 13k-20k HP

 

But this passive doesn't activate without a weapon or shield.......... WHY?

 

 

Now lets look at the Champion passive

 

Hateful: The champion gains hatred with every damaging ability and upon receiving damage. After not receiving damage for 4 seconds and below 50% hitpoints, health regeneration is greatly increased until they reach 50% health.

 

 

Why do they both have a very similar passive? Why is the Knights an occasional self heal with a long cooldown rather than a sustained self heal to stay close to 50%? That's pathetic.

Edited by Ranik

Shadowbane style advantage / disadvantage disciplines when? ~Yianni 1/21/21

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Obliterate seems to have received a stealth buff this past build.  It can crit for 6K and the bleed is now a 16s severe bleed (ticking for up to 1800 a tick) - I know this because I was on the receiving end of it a few times in testing this weekend.   However, the tooltip still says moderate bleed, so the buff may not have been intentional.

 

With the removal of reflect on block (dunno if this is by design or an accident, victim of the proc bug that's screwing up some other AT's powers), knight's pretty weak again.  We know the reflect on block is intended as a promotion class power, which leaves me worried that vanilla knight is going to remain terrible.

 

My biggest concerns with the knight are:

#1 - Frontloading of mana costs in combos where the starter power that incurs the cost has a much lower cooldown than the payoff powers at the end of the combo.

 

So if I hit 3-3 for my stun, the initial power's cooldown is half as long as the stun power's cooldown.  Meaning it becomes available again long before the stun does, and hitting it before the stun power has cooled down means you're charged the mana cost for the stun and don't get to use it.  

 

The 4 combo is even worse - the cooldown on obliterate and the knockdown are 3x the cooldown on the upfront power.  So you hit 4, pay the cost for 3 powers, and can't use either end-power because they're both still on cooldown.

 

This is the single most frustrating thing about the knight AT design.  No other class suffers this sort of BS.

 

#2 - resource management.  Mana is not a good choice of resource for a knight.  It's not exactly a magic-based class.  Mana is particularly annoying because it stops regenerating at 70% food.   I would very much like to see the knight move to pure stamina as a resource, with better recovery mechanics for the resource than we currently have for mana.

 

#3 - damage.  The LMB damage is fine.  All the rest of the powers (except the newly stealth-buffed obliterate) are underpowered compared to any other class.  Every class needs at least one power that does good burst damage.  I'm not asking for something like the Confessor 4 (which we got to hit for 40K in testing on Monday) - one power that can crit for 10K would be fine.

 

#4 - the C power.  It's atrocious.  The pull is short range and weak, and doesn't hit hard at all.  I would like to see either the area of effect on the pull tripled, OR a root attached to it.

 

 

I agree that it'd be nice to have them replace some of the less useful powers, but I don't think we're likely to see that any time soon.  The changes above would be relatively easy to implement and would make a huge difference.

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Nice post Duren. I'll have to test obliterate. Hopefully the change is intended. And yes, the resource system/management needs to be looked at. 

 

I still want to see the knight get some interesting mechanics, some interaction between the abilities. For the longest time, the knight meta was Pursuit for the small stun, 3 - 3 for the longer stun, then Shield Slam for a large amount of damage. It was decently effective. Now though, with Pursuit broken and Shield Slam doing so little damage, I don't know. We need something that makes us more effective if we use our abilities in a certain way, like the myrmidon has with their bleeds/passive/LMB  damage.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'd like options from the block back into damaging combat, for example canceling it into the various shield attacks should be super fast. Even have shield slam charge up while blocking.

The 1 ability? You should automatically block while you charge.

Or more simply... while blocking replace LMB with a single jab attack which doesn't break block.


Not being able to attack while blocking is purely a game trope and very unrealistic, it would be nice for the class called the knight who is all about shield usage to have at least a passable attack option while blocking.

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I don`t know what you people want. You ask for so many changes. Haven`t had any big issus with the knight, except legionaire maybe but with him i have isses with every class. And for confessors killed some by simply blocking their attacks, kind of easy though.

Edited by Jubenei
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I don`t know what you people want. You ask for so many changes. Haven`t had any big issus with the knight, except legionaire maybe but with him i have isses with every class. And for confessors killed some by simply blocking their attacks, kind of easy though.

It's pretty simple. I want the knight to be useful in a group. I want the knight to actually be a tank, not just a weak dps who hides behind his shield. We should be able to both attack and defend at the same time, or at least have some interplay between attacking and defending, which is why I suggested things like counterattack.

 

Sure, I can kill noob confessors who don't know about the reflect damage, but that's not something I would actually call fun. And last I heard, the reflect damage will be moved to one of the promotion classes, making the base kit even weaker.

 

We have low mobility and weak damage. Our CC used to be relevant, but other archetypes have surpassed us in that regard. Our resource system is poorly implemented and there is zero interplay between any of our abilities.

 

Look at the Myrmidon by comparison. Net Pull is way better than Chain Attack. They have 2 bleeds which can proc their passive ability which gives them 75% more damage on basic attacks. They have berserk, which mitigates 100% of the damage while still allowing them to do other things (unlike Block). Their damage increases as they take damage while in berserk. Pulverize is basically the same ability as Shield Slam, yet does 3 times more damage. 

 

I've been playing the knight since the earliest days of Hunger Dome. I've seen the power of all the various archetypes ebb and flow. Right now, the knight is in a bad place. There aren't many people playing knights these days and, with the Templar coming out next, those numbers might shrink even further.

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The Knight is pretty solid right now, imo. Something has to be done about the mana system (it sucks) and our 2-key probably needs some more damage (though it's nice that we're put into block mode while charging it). Other than that, the Knight does very well as a harasser, initiator and peeler during group fights. As a Knight, I can get into the midst of an enemy group and start stunning, pulling and knocking people down. The severe bleed from obliterate is excellent and the combo itself does quite a bit of damage in its own right. Block may not allow us to attack, but it does make us CC immune.

 

A knight's downfall comes from running out of mana in the middle of an engagement. The food system is especially punishing for Knights, as we become nearly combat ineffective as soon as we lose three chicken legs. I also agree that the reduced damage for the Knight 2 makes it an overlooked ability. I hardly ever use it unless I need a free block after an attack combo.

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