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Angelhearth

Crafting and PvP

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As long as every Tom, hooligan and Harry attacks and kill the players who wants to harvest there won't be any real testing of the crafting, unless of course the testing is done by the PvP'ers. Maybe let the players keep what they have in the inventory? This is a testing phase, so there shouldn't be any need for them to get the loot anyway.

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I just lost over 40 copper, some finished products, over 40 wood and elixirs. I am not sure if full loot is happy choice for the testing.

 

If you are soloing, you will eventually lose everything in your inventory. Especially when you want to go as deep into crafting as possible, the current system requires you to group up for that since ACE added the logout timer. Can't just log and switch servers anymore.

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I hope you know this test isn't just about gathering and crafting. They are still testing pvp elements in relation to these things. They are trying to see how to make all these elements co-exist. So teaming up, finding methods to avoid being ganked, finding good tactics to use to gank people and balancing these things to a point where is a fair balance is part of this testing. Try to find ways to avoid being killed and if you can find flaws or improvements to this system then state it, it will help in the long run. 

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If you are soloing, you will eventually lose everything in your inventory. Especially when you want to go as deep into crafting as possible, the current system requires you to group up for that since ACE added the logout timer. Can't just log and switch servers anymore.

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unless of course the testing is done by the PvP'ers. 

 

The testing is done by the pvpers.  The crafting is done by the pvpers.  The pvp is done by the crafters. It's all the same people. I guarantee that if I killed you, I had hundreds of ore in my inventory at the time.

 

I don't think there's a place in the game right now for solo non-pvp crafting only players.  There might be when there are keeps and banks and areas where you can sit and craft safely.  But you better have a great guild to funnel you mats.  If you intend to venture out into the world to get mats, you're going to need to pvp.

 

The pvp system and the crafting system are deeply linked.  Resource scarcity leads to conflict.  Conflict is the goal. Limit the availability of the most desirable things and people will murder and betray each other to get them. The best pvpers will have the best mats and if you want to craft with them, you'll have to get them from your "Tom, hooligan and Harry".

 

So, play scared, be cautious.  Learn your class, how to fight back, how to escape. You'll die to gank squads but you can win against solo gankers and escape 2 or 3 players if you're aware of your surroundings.

 

The thing is: How do you learn your class? If you only fight on other people's terms you'll never get better. You can't test your abilities on mobs.  You have to become the ganker if you don't always want to be prey. Weird, huh?

 

I recognize the general problem you're pointing out and we should do better not to alienate new players interested in the crafting.  I don't loot inventory and, if I can and I notice the person is not good at pvp, I usually try to drop a gold tool on the corpse.

 

But that's just cause crafting doesn't really do anything right now.  If this were the real game and you had something I needed, I would take it.

 

It's important to recognize that pvp is a big part of this game and that the mentality of "I don't pvp" is not going to get you far. PVP is part of the economy.  It's the first step in your crafting recipe. Get good at it.

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> unless of course the testing is done by the PvP'ers. 

 

The testing is done by the pvpers.  The crafting is done by the pvpers.  The pvp is done by the crafters. It's all the same people. I guarantee that if I killed you, I had hundreds of ore in my inventory at the time.

 

I don't think there's a place in the game right now for solo non-pvp crafting only players.  There might be when there are keeps and banks and areas where you can sit and craft safely.  But you better have a great guild to funnel you mats.  If you intend to venture out into the world to get mats, you're going to need to pvp.

 

The pvp system and the crafting system are deeply linked.  Resource scarcity leads to conflict.  Conflict is the goal. Limit the availability of the most desirable things and people will murder and betray each other to get them. The best pvpers will have the best mats and if you want to craft with them, you'll have to get them from your "Tom, hooligan and Harry".

 

So, play scared, be cautious.  Learn your class, how to fight back, how to escape. You'll die to gank squads but you can win against solo gankers and escape 2 or 3 players if you're aware of your surroundings.

 

The thing is: How do you learn your class? If you only fight on other people's terms you'll never get better. You can't test your abilities on mobs.  You have to become the ganker if you don't always want to be prey. Weird, huh?

 

I recognize the general problem you're pointing out and we should do better not to alienate new players interested in the crafting.  I don't loot inventory and, if I can and I notice the person is not good at pvp, I usually try to drop a gold tool on the corpse.

 

But that's just cause crafting doesn't really do anything right now.  If this were the real game and you had something I needed, I would take it.

 

It's important to recognize that pvp is a big part of this game and that the mentality of "I don't pvp" is not going to get you far. PVP is part of the economy.  It's the first step in your crafting recipe. Get good at it.

The problem is not pvp at all. You actually try to stockpile resource to be better at pvp. But if you loose your two hours job after one sad encounter, it is rather disgusting. If full loot changed to 40% loot, then, your prepared resources to craft further (like weapon head - great mace) would not disappear and you will be able to test both. Especially if there is decent durability of the items that are hard to acquire (I lost my mace after falling down the mountain).

 

For fact, I do it myself. I make mace and then hunt other resources that I need for shield. It is also because I don't know where to find hide (other players who have bunch of it are usually around boars), but mainly, because it is easier. I do not loot what I don't need. But I was looted a shield and similar things by a Duelists, which seems quite odd.

 

One minute in a game should not be able to lead to two lost hours of the work whatever skill-evel you are.


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The problem is not pvp at all. You actually try to stockpile resource to be better at pvp. But if you loose your two hours job after one sad encounter, it is rather disgusting. If full loot changed to 40% loot, then, your prepared resources to craft further (like weapon head - great mace) would not disappear and you will be able to test both. Especially if there is decent durability of the items that are hard to acquire (I lost my mace after falling down the mountain).

 

For fact, I do it myself. I make mace and then hunt other resources that I need for shield. It is also because I don't know where to find hide (other players who have bunch of it are usually around boars), but mainly, because it is easier. I do not loot what I don't need. But I was looted a shield and similar things by a Duelists, which seems quite odd.

 

One minute in a game should not be able to lead to two lost hours of the work whatever skill-evel you are.

 

I see the misconception that you need gear to pvp quite a lot.  I recognize this will become a problem.  But at this point, the difference between a basic weapon and a fully crafted weapon doesn't seem significant enough to be an impediment.  Most of the people out there killing people are using no weapon or the basic weapon. Very few people are pvping with fully crafted weapons unless it's organized group vs. group. If the guy ganking you is using a starter weapon, that's all you should need too.

 

And armor is just totally useless.  Managed to craft myself two pieces of medium armor with all augments and lots of rare ore.  I had +14 hitpoints and -28 to physical damage.  With 50k hitpoints and 10k attacks, it's just not worth it at all.

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I see the misconception that you need gear to pvp quite a lot.  I recognize this will become a problem.  But at this point, the difference between a basic weapon and a fully crafted weapon doesn't seem significant enough to be an impediment.  Most of the people out there killing people are using no weapon or the basic weapon. Very few people are pvping with fully crafted weapons unless it's organized group vs. group. If the guy ganking you is using a starter weapon, that's all you should need too.

 

And armor is just totally useless.  Managed to craft myself two pieces of medium armor with all augments and lots of rare ore.  I had +14 hitpoints and -28 to physical damage.  With 50k hitpoints and 10k attacks, it's just not worth it at all.

Well if gear made little or no difference then the economy would be useless.

If your facion is unable to supply itself then it has a problem. That is why every faction needs dedicated Harvesters and dedicated crafters that stockpile and dedicated military that protects them all the time.

In the hunger dome there was a great difference between green gear and epic one. In the big world there is currently no difference between grey and green gear aside from the bonus experiment slots.

 

And no matter how good your gear.. ournumbert  you will still die. The same for your well equiped enemy in the Dregs.

With full loot the epic equip of your enemy might soon be yours. =)

 

The current loot system in the big world is not 100% full loot. Only your inventory not your equipment but you get decay on your equipment each time you die.

I think around 30% decay per death.

 

Also without the amor skill tree you are effectiv only using around 50% of what the amor can do. I belive plate in HD had 20% resistence to physical and its only 10% right now without skill points spend in the amor tree.

thats why amor is useless and while some people run around in full gear it doesnt change mutch.

 

Atm it comes down to numbers your archtype and player skill to determine the winner of a battle.  Basic weapons are so easy to craft that whoever runs around without them is asking for death.

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As long as every Tom, hooligan and Harry attacks and kill the players who wants to harvest there won't be any real testing of the crafting, unless of course the testing is done by the PvP'ers. Maybe let the players keep what they have in the inventory? This is a testing phase, so there shouldn't be any need for them to get the loot anyway.

They need to add a banking system i think for next test like this even if it just random chests at the castle/buildings around the parcel, Takes alot of mats to craft and alot of people have hard enough time to stay alive long enough. For example ive made enough normal quiality stuff to make a full set of armor and weapons however i would like to see how they compare to say all green quality resources but ill never stay alive long enough to gather enough green quality mats to make one piece.


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I'm a casual player, newbie of PVP game, probably going to be a crafter, not member of a guild or game community, not english language native.

I suppose this is the worst kind of player trying to play Big World and I'm going to skip the rest of this milestone, waiting for Throne War.

 

On the other hand I daresay the internal name Todd gave to Big World had a reason to be internal: Artcraft intends this milestone to be something more than a field for 'Roving Bands of Thugs'.

I don't know if hooligans who attack players who are harvesting and loot "precious" copper is a good test for the game mechanic.

I'm not sure the Crows willing to organize a party and defend themselves to keep playing are enough to evaluate server stress.

Data test are for developers, so I reckon this is not my concern.

 

Crowfall is a throne war game and in war number matters.

However I foresee some of the very same persons giving advice of "safety in numbers" will complain in the released game about "zerging". 

I suppose I have to give them the same reply given for Big World now.


Catelyn: War will make them old, as it did us. I pity them.
Mathis: Why? Look at them. They're young and strong, full of life and laughter. And lust, aye, more lust than they know what to do with. There will be many a bastard bred this night, I promise you. Why pity?
Catelyn: Because it will not last. Because they are the knights of summer, and winter is coming.

A Clash of Kings, Chapter 22, Catelyn II.
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If you want to collect things solo (I do it as well), you have to be very attentive, fast and able to stand some damage in case they CC you. Good archetypes for solo harvesting/crafting are Druid and Legionnaire. Maybe Duelist, I haven't tried it. See someone - run as fast as you can.

For crafting go inside a house and stand there. Listen to the sounds. You can also close the craft window while waiting for the craft to complete and look around (or even move). And everything like that. It is a test of the "Big World", not of some isolated craft/harvesting. If they wanted to test just craft, they would give us infinite resources of any kinds - and go craft whatever you like. If they wanted us to test just harvesting, they would let us into the world filled with resource nodes - and go harvest. But they also need to continue polishing pvp and combat, they want to test pvp loot and possible issues with it.

Edited by sedside

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Any time you are solo you're vulnerable... So Work to avoid making yourself vulnerable.

 

There are of course also good ethics of conduct.

- Loot what you need and not what you don't need.

- Don't grap already crafted items.

 

Then again, some just don't care, and there is room for that too.  Just makes things rather tedious for those that are those whom are "harvested".

 

 

But a suggestion might be that players are able to -trade- items, rather than have to opt moving items to dead mobs for allies to loot. 


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Any time you are solo you're vulnerable... So Work to avoid making yourself vulnerable.

 

There are of course also good ethics of conduct.

- Loot what you need and not what you don't need.

- Don't grap already crafted items.

 

Then again, some just don't care, and there is room for that too.  Just makes things rather tedious for those that are those whom are "harvested".

 

 

But a suggestion might be that players are able to -trade- items, rather than have to opt moving items to dead mobs for allies to loot.

 

Sad thing about grabbing only what you need is that you only have 20 seconds to do so. Most will just grab all and check later if they were looking for anything at all. But I agree that this test isn't just about crafting and harvesting but the pvp and honestly... The player interact. When it comes down to it, this is a pvp game. That fact is set in stone and won't be changing. So why complain about pvp in the testing? It will always be there.

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I wonder if there is a middle ground or something. Just thinking back to Runescape days, since Crowfall reminds me of RS. When you would go into the Wild, if you are attacked, you didnt lose everything. You would keep X number of items based on "value". However if YOU attacked someone, you got a "debuff" that made it so if you died you drop everything.

I wonder if there is a way to do something like that in Crowfall. Right now you dont lose GEAR, so lets leave that off to the side. But say your inventory. Rather than dropping ALL your inventory, what if you were able to designate 3 items in your bag (based on position?) that were "safe" items that would NOT drop but ONLY if you did not initiate the attack?

If you DID initiate an attack on another player, you get a "debuff" for 10 minutes in which NO items are protected? 

That way a person who wants to play the passive crafter, will still have risk of losing things, but can designate SOME things to keep so its not an "all or nothing" system. If you went out and farmed 100 wood or something, you may designate that as something to keep on death, where as you might lose some ore or your axe etc. It just allows for if YOU get jumped, if you didnt initiate the combat, you dont feel like the last hour of your life was wasted by death. 

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I wonder, do you think looting would be better or worse if they implemented properly sized inventories for the next big world test.

Right now, unless you want to be nice, there is no motivation not to grab everything. 

 

If people actually had strength based carrying capacities (I believe this is a planned feature) or weight based encumbrance (I don't remember if that's a planned feature), they might need to choose what they wanted to grab instead of taking everything as quickly as they can.

 

Thoughts?

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I wonder, do you think looting would be better or worse if they implemented properly sized inventories for the next big world test.

Right now, unless you want to be nice, there is no motivation not to grab everything. 

 

If people actually had strength based carrying capacities (I believe this is a planned feature) or weight based encumbrance (I don't remember if that's a planned feature), they might need to choose what they wanted to grab instead of taking everything as quickly as they can.

 

Thoughts?

I love this idea. Am surprised its not part of the universal skill tree TBH. I think this might be too much an investment of time, to assign "weight" to every item.. but if they could assign a "block value" to each and every thing.

 

I dont know inventory size, but lets say you can hold 30 spots. They allow stackable things (obviously). but what if they limited the max number of things you can carry to say 90 units worth. Now you could only save up or hold "so much stuff" so you might be more willing to share loot. 

 

So in a sense you have 2 limitations to your carry space. 1) variety of items - this you are max at the number of carry spots. 2) Sheer weight you can carry. 

 

I like this rather than a stackmax as it allows you to carry less variety, which allows you to carry more "weight". If all you care about is wood. Even if you have all your bag space available, itll cap you at 90 wood - as thats the max space you can hold. Even if it only took up 1 spot in your bag.

 

If you wanted Wood AND some type of ore - you could only hold 45 of each. Etc.

 

Also, this might be incentive to have crafters share with their "fighter" friends as a way to hold more.

 

You could also level this via Universal Tree and enhance carry capability. 

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