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Raizex

Dual Daggers are Silly - Let's get the ranger a more respectable melee weapon

Alternative Ranger Weapons  

165 members have voted

  1. 1. Which alternative melee weapons would you like to see?

    • Sword and Dagger
    • Sword and Buckler
    • Sword and Cape
    • Axe and Buckler
    • I like my dual daggers just fine, thank you very much.
    • Other...(Post alternative in comments)


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The case against dual dagger:

 

Seriously, daggers are way down the list as a choice of sidearm. You'd probably be better off with a wood axe or a hatchet if you needed to defend yourself against an armed opponent at melee range. They aren't really even deserving of the title of 'secondary weapon', but should be relegated to the tier of 'tertiary weapon' along with and punching someone with an armored gauntlet.

 

Yes, daggers make for good assassination weapons, or for finishing off a grappled opponent, which is why a lot of knights were trained in unarmed dagger defense and carried daggers on them, but the ranger isn't an assassin, nor are they an armored knight with a longsword or polearm to use a primary weapon.

 

Why are daggers so terrible, might you ask? Well, they're just too damn short. You are at an immediate reach disadvantage whenever you encounter an opponent with a weapon longer than their forearm. Heck, even someone with a sturdy broomstick has a reasonable chance at fending you off. Hence why they were popular for assassination weapons or for finishing off downed opponents, both situations where the terrible reach of the dagger either doesn't matter, or was, in fact, desirable.

 

If not dual dagger, what else?:

 

Well, if not dual daggers, what else would be a suitable weapon for the ranger? Well, here are just a few alternatives that I feel are thematic, as well as being much more reasonable sidearms for the ranger when they need to fight in melee range:

 

1. Sword and dagger: Quite similar to dual dagger, but without the key reach disadvantage. The idea here is that the sword is used as the primary weapon, much the same way as a single one-handed sword would be used alone, but with the dagger being used defensively to parry attacks and potentially trap and tie up the opponent's weapon. In addition, this combination is also easy to carry as back up weapons, with the sword being sheathed at the hip, and the dagger being sheathed either behind the back above the hips, or attached on the chest near the sternum for ease of access. (The dagger could really be sheathed almost anywhere, just two suggestions.)

 

2. Sword and buckler: Very similar to sword and dagger, where the sword is the main offensive weapon and the buckler is the main defensive weapon. Fares better against bashing and slashing weapons than the sword and dagger, due to not having to be as precise with the parries. Only slightly more difficult to carry than the sword and dagger, but also more likely to draw scrutiny from the town guards. By far one of the more popular weapon choices among bandits and highwayman, but also for mercenaries, soldiers, and guards.

 

3.) Sword and cape: I think you might be seeing the trend here, sword is the main offensive weapon, with the cape being used to hide the silhouette of the body and mask attacks. The cape could also potentially be used to trap the opponent's weapon, but doing so would be risky to attempt if unarmored. One of the more 'rouge'-ish of the weapon options, but hey, we have the cape already, might as well use it, right?

 

4.) Hand-axe/Hatchet and buckler: Not necessarily ideal, as you'd want a bit more protection than a buckler with such a short weapon as an axe, preferably some sort of full on shield, but you aren't going to be carrying around a shield in addition to a bow, and we don't want to be stepping on the knight's toes. Axe has the advantage as being justified as a tool, and can be used like a hook to attempt to disarm the opponent or as a grapple aide. Still suffers from the reach disadvantage of dual dagger, but hopefully made up for by the additional defense from the buckler, as well as the additional utility of the axe. About the same if not easier to carry around as sword and buckler.

Edited by Raizex

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As a larper, I have a decent amount of real experience on this topic.

 

Dual daggers is pretty much the expected because of DnD.

 

Larping I would use axe and dagger or axe and buckler. I've tried axe and shield, but that's too much junk to carry. Even a buckler hinders switching to your bow.

 

On the flip side, dual daggers can be deadly. One dagger holds their weapon out of the day while you run closer inside their effective range. It's hard to hit someone with a sword when they are in your face blocking your weapon!

 

But the real world and video games are different!

 

From a game perspective, I'd love to see axe and dagger (full length axe). I'd be extra happy if the axes were usable for harvesting and combat though it would need a huge durability increase to actually work.

 

Sword and cape is fun, but more duelist than ranger.

Sword and shield feels like it dilutes the flavor too much.

Existing dual daggers works well enough as it lets you go melee on someone who is ranged... But I certainly wouldn't object to more reach.

Edited by ledeir

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A maul or hatchet/short sword with a dagger would probably be the most realistic weapons an archer would use for a secondary. For gameplay duel daggers are fine to me, they can be practical in battle though generally require a greater skill to use than most options.  Reach would always be an issue, but a quick knife can parry or disable most weapons before the attack can reach you, again this should only be tried by someone with a lot of practice.  Seeing as the crows are immortal warriors I would guess they have probably had plenty of time to practice their art.

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I'm not really sure why the archetype is locked into dual daggers rather than allowing players to mix-and-match with various light-to-medium one-handed weapons.  That said, if we are stuck with a specific melee weapon type I honestly don't have too much of a preference.

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I'm not really sure why the archetype is locked into dual daggers rather than allowing players to mix-and-match with various light-to-medium one-handed weapons.  That said, if we are stuck with a specific melee weapon type I honestly don't have too much of a preference.

They are locked because of the animations I believe.

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As a larper, I have a decent amount of real experience on this topic.

 

I almost spit my coffee out, thanks hahah

 

Unless you do sca and heavy or light fighting, you're just as likely to be one of those kids in the park with a foam sword whacking it on somebody like the 3 pound junk that it is.

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I almost spit my coffee out, thanks hahah

 

Unless you do sca and heavy or light fighting, you're just as likely to be one of those kids in the park with a foam sword whacking it on somebody like the 3 pound junk that it is.

 

Are we really going to start a fight about which sparring/combat system is superior? Yes, the rules for LARPing tend to be pretty simplistic, with a lot of emphasis put on role-playing and having fun, but that doesn't mean useful observations can't be taken from it. I think what he meant is that his experience extended beyond just the theoretical, which is a lot more than what most people have.

 

I really didn't intend to start a flame-war about LARP vs HEMA vs ACL vs <insert your favorite sparring/combat system here>.

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What exactly makes them daggers as opposed to short swords? I generally think of daggers as having rather short blades but they seem rather large in the character select screen.

 

Well, they are called daggers in-game. Also, what they're called is irrelevant so long as they are significantly shorter than a sword that extends from the hip to the lower shin/ankle. Heck, the sizing for rapiers (a weapon designed to maximize reach and thrusting) was sometimes suggested to be from just below the wielder's armpit down to the ground. Good luck trying to get past that (or a spear/polearm) with a bladed weapon that only extends from the elbow to the tips of your fingers.

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hm...

in the skill trees, there are two types of daggers...

long daggers ... for rangers

and short daggers... obvious for the assasines

 

i like the (long) daggers for the ranger...

cape would be nice too, but yeeah...

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They are locked because of the animations I believe.

That's an implementation detail more than a design decision though.  If the underlying design called for more customization of weapon loadouts then they would have created an animation framework to support it.

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I almost spit my coffee out, thanks hahah

 

Unless you do sca and heavy or light fighting, you're just as likely to be one of those kids in the park with a foam sword whacking it on somebody like the 3 pound junk that it is.

 

Well glad I could amuse you!

 

AND you help prove my point by comparing LARPing with light weapons to SCA. 

 

It is awkward running through the woods and whacking people with gear of negligible weight. It is even harder when you use live steel and full armor.

The problem isn't the weight, its the size and accessibility. 

 

Oh, and for the record, 3-5 pounds is how much most medieval swords weighed. LARPing weapons are usually only a couple of pounds! ;)

I worked in the (now closed :( ) Higgin's Armory Museum for a semester and have a small collection in my closet, but you are welcome to google it if you doubt me!

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That's an implementation detail more than a design decision though.  If the underlying design called for more customization of weapon loadouts then they would have created an animation framework to support it.

 

To clarify -

I believe they made the design decision to limit weapon choices to save money on the animations. 

 

Whether or not the underlying mechanics support different loadouts is unknown, though I would hope they do so they could give us more choice in the future when Crowfall is successful.

 

And it was a LONG time ago that it was mentioned so I could be remembering wrong!

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To clarify -

I believe they made the design decision to limit weapon choices to save money on the animations. 

 

Absolutely. If, for example, they wanted to give Rangers the option of using a two handed sword it would take entirely different animations.

 

I am hoping that once Crowfall launches, and after it proves that there is a market for the game, ACE will start adding additional weapon options (and the expensive animations they require) for various archetypes.

 

I could see these weapons being unlocked by Discipline Runes (like the Weapon Mastery Runes from Shadowbane.)

 

That said, I think some weapon variety could probably be implemented without expensive animations. Letting a Ranger equip swords rather than daggers might be feasible using the existing animations.

Edited by Jah

IhhQKY6.gif

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Absolutely. If, for example, they wanted to give Rangers the option of using a two handed sword it would take entirely different animations.

 

I am hoping that once Crowfall launches, and after it proves that there is a market for the game, ACE will start adding additional weapon options (and the expensive animations they require) for various archetypes.

 

I could see these weapons being unlocked by Discipline Runes (like the Weapon Mastery Runes from Shadowbane.)

 

That said, I think some weapon variety could probably be implemented without expensive animations. Letting a Ranger equip swords rather than daggers might be feasible using the existing animations.

While the dagger and sword animations would look similar the bones(I think that is what they are called) of each would still be different on thus require just as much new animation work (sure they might be able to do it a little faster since they would have a very clear picture in their heads of how the animation should look like, but the actual animation will still have to be done from scratch pretty much

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While the dagger and sword animations would look similar the bones(I think that is what they are called) of each would still be different on thus require just as much new animation work (sure they might be able to do it a little faster since they would have a very clear picture in their heads of how the animation should look like, but the actual animation will still have to be done from scratch pretty much

 

I think you are mistaken about that. They could put any kind of weapon they want into the ranger's hands and use the same animations. The problem is that the existing animations would look stupid with most weapons other than daggers. Since swords are just long daggers, it might work with them. I haven't looked closely at the Ranger animations to see if longer weapons would clip through her body during the animations.

Edited by Jah

IhhQKY6.gif

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