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Current Champion Thread (BW 3.4)


McTan
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I put this post in the feedback thread, but Champion testers should probably have a separate thread (good idea Rangers)!

 

Overall, the direction of the champion is pretty discouraging. The combat movement changes help significantly, but the LMB swings are so clunky and dramatic, that in a game with 1001 leaps and dodges, it's really challenging to hit anyone that is not CC'ed. I note that CC over-reliance is probably the biggest problem with combat, IMO. Mobility nerfs to champions have destroyed the class identity that was taking shape. Two of us chased a legionnaire in circles for 3 minutes, with no way to do anything to it because Leap got the nerf bat for the third time and hurlbat does not have an effective enough snare to change a chase. Bear in mind this Legionnaire was not trying to run away, just simply run in circles healing his friend.

 

  1. Leap currently a 30 second cooldown, generates rage, deals damage. Very short timer to second leap, should be extended so that latency is not as big of an issue and so champions can change direction. In my view, the Leap should return at least to the 8-9 second cooldown it had after you moved it from RMB and in return, make it use rage.
  2. Spinning Backfist and Kick Sand - fairly solid in my assessment. Sometimes the blind does not seem to hit anyone (similarly to the suppress on "3").
  3. VS/DS/Rend - the best opportunity for a meaningful combat chain decision is very sad in its current state. Disarming shout only hits one target (please change this) and rend is unpredictable. The moves themselves are good, I just think there are some implementation issues ATM.
  4. Massive Cleave/Whirling Pain - useless. Never use.
  5. Throw Hurlbat - a fun skill, but does not seem that effective. I think the effective snare is much less than 50%. If it actually snared substantially, then I think the cooldown balance is perfect - the reapplying is skillful and often requires multiple hits in a row. As it is, I can hit with 10 in a row and still not get in a range of a fleeing druid, confessor, or knight. #whompwhomp
  6. Ultimate Warrior - I still really like the concept. I just am disappointed with the implementation insofar as a champion should always have UW1up. I'm not sure it should be changed, since I believe the implementation is meant to basically make the move from UW1 to UW2 the decision.

     LMB: Okay except maybe a little long for PvP combat. Almost certainly not going to get all three strikes as hits in a row.

     RMB: Really enjoyable (though not as fun as having four Leaps...)

       "C": A great skill. Hard to time in PvP, but when it succeeds it is wonderful. It is, however, incredibly frustrating that there is so much invulnerability. Hitting a Mino with this move is essentially a non-starter since if I am close enough for this they are undoubtedly zipping across my screen destroying my face. Two champions can use their "C" to great effect though.

 

Bearing in mind that I am only temporarily playing Champion until Forgemaster drops, I enjoy playing the class. If they remain as vulnerable, however, there is no way they can be played solo (since the passive only takes you up to half health). They are miles behind other classes (here's looking at Minos) in terms of being an all-around package, and I think similar to how confessors felt after druids came out, it is incredibly disappointing that Minos seem to do literally everything better (including DPS). Make Champions easy to kill but easy killers (I'd start playing with damage modifiers during this test, frankly).

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What if, like the Mino Whirlwind, they added an extra effect to Whirling Pain.
It doesn't have to be a bleed, maybe another slow to help the Champ keep up with someone if he does get them in Cleave > Whirling Pain combo.
Has this been done before? Is it a stupid idea? I just feel like Cleave/Whirling Pain needs that extra something.

Though, I'm not sure if it would be wholly necessary, as it might lead to a sort of homogenisation where every ability like that needs something similar.
Also, tooltip numbers show that the Cleave > WP combo does more baseline damage than Arcing Slash > Whirlwind, though bleeds may more than make up for it.

Anyway, that's just one suggestion of many. Maybe also adjust Leap cooldowns. I'm not sure.
I like that he's a slow, lumbering brute, but I feel he should be the kind that will stay on your ass if he manages to catch you.

I get that they're not worried about balance at the moment, and that's fine. But, maybe a bit of knob turning.

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Make Champion RMB a "leap" that goes twice as far as the standard dodge roll, costs twice as much stamina and do damage if you hit (this also helps give diversity to RMB where most classes dont have a copy paste dodge roll)

 

Readd The strength of the mountain (name?) defensive cooldown in place of the #1 leap (since it would be on rmb)

 

#4 remove the combo, a pre cast animation isnt needed for a simple damage attack (devs want pre animations before cc so ppl can see their coming and react) also make it do twice as much damage

 

 

ps. BUG that needs fixed. 3,E REND still uses root motion, needs to be changed to the new free movement system like all other skills

Edited by Ziz

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Couple things on my wish list from HD

 

  • Make whirling pain more like the whirlwind attack for warriors in GW2
  • Increase the recovery time for the C ability.  It sucks to use C and then have the enemy on their feet faster because they used retaliate
  • I say no to dodge roll, give me something that makes sense for an urban brute
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  • I say no to dodge roll, give me something that makes sense for an urban brute

 

 

Yeah maybe put SOTM onto RMB and make it last like one-second and be an immunity (and take half the stam bar).

 

Though I hesitate because I am really hopeful for the champion to be built around mobility, since it is so critical in this game.

Edited by mctan
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Though I hesitate because I am really hopeful for the champion to be built around mobility, since it is so critical in this game.

 

I think that is the challenge they face now.  Every class has some really good separation skills.  The champion has the slowest move speed, but he also use to have the best "burst" move.  I think the idea behind the champion was urban barbarian.  They were attempting to balance out his dps with horrible marathon chase ability but great short.  This might work in city landscapes were you can't run in straight lines but in the wilderness of HD and BW people can run in straight lines and get the most out of their RMB.

 

I'd really like to see them tie move speed, and distance of abilities to the champion ultimate warrior ability.  As he gets bigger let him move faster and further.  You could add some kind of exhaustion debuff after Ultimate Warrior (like D&D after barbarian berserk).  Instead of exhaustion you could make his stamina Regen insane during ultimate warrior but also add stamina cost to all his damage abilities that way he just consumes his chicken ticker at a crazy rate so he needs to be carrying around more food than typical characters for fighting.

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  1. Lower cool down on leap by half. Attach a short stun to it if you hit a target.

Remove whirling pain and replace it with strength of the mountain (or whatever the stasis was named). Maybe attach some kind of rapid regeneration heal to it. Right now the biggest issue with the champion is survivability.

If they don't want to bring back strength of the mountain or attach a heal to it, maybe have ultimate warrior heal you?

Lower the rage cost of most abilities, way too high right now.

Edited by helix
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Consider a bleed purge on some ability to increase survivability. Currently the ease of DoTs and bleeds are crushing champions passive.  

The Leap cool down felt good 3 tests ago when it was at 16 seconds, not sure why it got the stealth 200% nerf outside of patch notes. This change brought on rage issues and mobility issues.

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@mctan good idea to gather that all here so i copy past my stuf in here too.

 

Power 1:

double jump 30sec cooldown is far to long. ( no need to do supper harsh scaling. Instat of hard Buff or Nervs do small steps. 25 sek for example and see how that goes.

Tooltip says Range 4 meters. If its the radius of the dmg than its not working. I dont do any dmg with the skill unless i land directly inside the enemy.

 

Power 3 -> rend:

The bleed itself is strong enough but with the forced forward movement very very hard to hit a moving target.

Sugestions:

     -Make the attack slower so its more easy to turn around and hit the target that just went past you.

or

     -Delet the forward movement of the skill.

or

     -Make it a forward ark attack applying bleed to all targets hit. (The Campion currently has no AOE attack. The Power 4 Whirlwind dmg is so low and has such a small radius that you 80% of all times hit nothing and 20% of all times hit only 1 target and that with low dmg.

Considering it allready says "applys serve bleed to all hit" it is allready an AOE, but to small to hit more then 1 target.

or

   -make it a line attack. You strike the ground and the earth in a 15meters straight line in front of you spliters out couse server bleed to everyone hit.

This way you still have to carefull aim it but with the posibility to hit several target at once. ( as you can tell i like this one)

 

 

Power 4 whirling pain:

    - as said abouve the dmg and radius of this skill is to low to even consider using it.

Sugestion:

     -Up the dmg to the LMB attack dmg and scaling. The range should be around 7 meters to be effective in the large melee.

(considering the Myrmadon whirlwind has 5meter range with a normal axe while the current champ has 4,3meters with a giant axe.)

or

    -Change the skill completly.

Instat of spinning around you hit the target with a very powerfull side swing sending them flying backwards. Knokback 19meters and knockdown. ( Range has to be big enough so the time it takes for the champ to get close again equals the time to stand up from the knokdown. Or even longer)

This would be a great skill to protect your allies if used in the right time. It would require a good amount of skill to hit the enemy in the right direction at the right time.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm interested to hear from the perspective of Bruce about the fights our groups had in BW tonight.  From the Sugoi side I felt custard useless and eventually switched to the mino.

 

First contact:

The group I was in opted to push out and engage just outside the keep door.  I was attempting to use suppresses and blinds to peel for team members and remember one particular kill of a horse at 1/5 hp using the 3-E.  It helped that he was netted and knocked down but I always love the damage that ability puts out.  After that I got focused.  The champ has no ability to break out of nets, not leap, not 6, I don't even think c gets you out of it.  The guys tried their best to to heal me and I tried to use all 2 of my mitigation skills 6 and c but its not enough.

 

Second contact:

Running back from the graveyard we opted to have a team jump from the east rampart and attempt to flank the force camped outside the gate.  After securing a kill or two life started to get low so I attempted to separate and use some of that great healing to get to half life 20k HP.  I might get one or two ticks but in the large tussle I just couldn't find room to breath.

 

Graveyard bouncing:

After that we attempted to regroup and fight a retreating battle, but the custarder is so slow the group either leaves me to die or dies trying to save my fat ass.

 

After that it was time to switch to something that adds way more value to the group.  If there were other champions in the fight feel free Bruce is one I remember seeing.

 

Some ideas around the direction I'd like to see him go.

  • It be nice if nets didn't stop this giant bad ass fighter
  • I miss my o poorly made socks, Stone of the Mtn ability
  • 30 seconds is forever compared to the stam regen movement of range classes and the charges of other melee classes
  • As the squish target I don't see how our passive half hp heal is going to do much of anything
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I think the leap cooldown is a little excessive considering they're the only true melee dps in the game. I also think they need some sort of small sustain cooldown or mechanic that allows them to heal a little bit in combat. Not anything major but enough to sustain themselves through poke damage. Right now Champions just can't stay in the fight even if they aren't getting focused that hard.

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Tbh i find the current state of the Cooldowns to be ok What i feel the main problem is Champion is men't to be slow but with that comes force which doesnt come. I feel at all when a little hamster does 11million dmg to me in 5 hits and i just doing meh its disheartening you feel ineffective and almost usless. Every 1 on 1 you lose either through shire kite ability or dmg its just a shame

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  • 2 weeks later...

With this patch (.7?) Myrmidon took a major nerf/bug to survive-ability which put champion back into the mix for me.  The fact that not near as many Myrmidons where on the field seemed to reduce the amount of time the champion was disabled in group fights making it easier to maneuver around team members and getting kills.  It will be interesting to see how much we can reduce the cool down on the leap ability.  With the way hunger is currently I'm glade leap doesn't take stamina anymore.  3-E really needs some help on hitting targets to much sliding past your target because of the root motion.  In comparison to the confessors knockdown and the champions blind or suppress the confessor seem to have a much wider frontal cone.

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With this patch (.7?) Myrmidon took a major nerf/bug to survive-ability which put champion back into the mix for me.  The fact that not near as many Myrmidons where on the field seemed to reduce the amount of time the champion was disabled in group fights making it easier to maneuver around team members and getting kills.  It will be interesting to see how much we can reduce the cool down on the leap ability.  With the way hunger is currently I'm glade leap doesn't take stamina anymore.  3-E really needs some help on hitting targets to much sliding past your target because of the root motion.  In comparison to the confessors knockdown and the champions blind or suppress the confessor seem to have a much wider frontal cone.

Myrmidon was supposed to be a tank. It is a bit sad he was making more damage than champion for some time. Now, champion has some dignity but still he is too big with huge hitbox. His ultimate warrior makes him even easier to hit as he grows in size giving him more disadvantage than advantage. Spinning is useless and jump has so huge cooldown that you can never reach a knight.

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Myrmidon was supposed to be a tank. It is a bit sad he was making more damage than champion for some time. Now, champion has some dignity but still he is too big with huge hitbox. His ultimate warrior makes him even easier to hit as he grows in size giving him more disadvantage than advantage. Spinning is useless and jump has so huge cooldown that you can never reach a knight.

ultimate warrior is still shaking the screen like hell.

Power 3 -> Rend is still launching the champ into space.

CC abilitys are still only singel target.

Did the Whirling pain dizzy effect ever work?

Trowing hurbat seem to start at the feet of the champ and then raise towards the aiming point. The hit box of the hurlbat is very small and that makes it very hard to hit anything with it.

Jumping into the enemy frontline is a death sentence with such low HP.

His LMB attack dmg is good as it is.

Low Movement speed coppeld with 30sek CD on double jump makes him the least mobile archtype in the game. Chasing anyboddy is pretty mutch impossible even more with amor on.

 

The only reason why the champ is half decent right now is because the other archtypes have even more broken skills. (*cough* Archer *cough*)

 

 

That beeing said its ok for them to push fixing the archtypes further down the road. For now i belive the focus should be implanting the missing game systems. After all, after every patch there is a good chance that something is gonna break again.

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