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silhaku

Seperating Dreg from Shadow again? Why why not?

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OK, it hit me a while ago that everyone was saying shadow was no more and Drag would be the gvg grounds but it didn't hit me till today how solid that info might be. Well honestly I don't like this change. I can see how guilds could be a issue in the Dregs even with there being shadow to play in but both rings could have very unique play styles that could forge tales so legendary that the game of thrones creator would be using this game as a reference point for new books.

First let me go over the pros of shadow being it's own ring. It's the gvg ring. No pugs (sorry if the term offends people) allowed. Their arena where guilds put there pride and honor on the line. Your guild mates can be awesome in the dregs, even legends of God's Reach or the infected, or just economic Titans in the EK. But the hardcore guilds. The ones the look to top leader boards and prove that no other guild can compete with head to head. Shadows are where they will primary be at. Yeah they might go to dregs to get better gear or the lower ones to recruit and EK to prep for the next coming battle. But they will do it for the shadows, that is guild end game.

Now for the dregs, that will be the harsh lands where "your guild can't even protect you". This is for the elite few that want to prove they are the best. Not as a guild or as a simple soldier but as individuals. The winners of these bands should be individuals of legends in their own right. And it doesn't need to be teamed up with guild mates. Because your closest friends might not even be in the same guild as you. You can have way different play styles and like all types of different environments. But you could have the bonds and synergy that is stronger than any bond you have with your guild mates. These are the lands where bonds are tested and turning it into guild paradise would only diminish the value of the challenges this band has to offer.

Now here is the tricky part, how do you stop guilds from overrunning the dregs? This was and still is something I'm sorta stumped on but it's worth all the effort if it means I get to see amazing things come from out of both of these rings. So, what could we do to stop guilds from all joining the same dregs world? Make the dreg worlds small, population of 30-100 players each. Then add a queue system that puts you in a random dreg world so there is no Guarantee that you will end up with your guild mates. Only groups of 1-6 can queue together. What if you end up with multiple teams from the same guild anyway? Well the dreg is a place of fragile alliances any way. Make a alliances with none guild groups and brake them as you see fit. And here's the heart stopper.... Only a team of 6 can win. There can be a 2ND, 3rd, and so on but only 6 people can stand at the top. So if multiple guild teams do join, that bond will be tested one way or another.

That's all I have but please add your suggestion and give more ideas on how to prevent guilds from running dreg. I want to really see these rings separately great in their own rights.

Edited by silhaku

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The only way i see they not favoring guilds in the dregs is if they make the winning conditions tied to individuals. It is hard to be exact because we dont know any game modes (except the bloodstone one which favors guilds) but we may see a ruleset that gives points for individuals or small parties.

 

Maybe a ruleset similar to the "get the egg" one where a artifact(or a lot) spawn somewhere in the world and you must hold it for hours to win points and then it respawn. Once the owner dies the artifact will spawn somewhere again (no loot) but the owner can sacrifice it and make it spawn again to stop being a target. Of course, once someone found it everyone can see the owner in their campass but just a general location and once close they must track him down manually.

 

Maybe make it so that if you keep the egg until it auto respawn only you or your party can track it down again by the compass. Or make it so that if killed the egg spawn location will be show to everyone for a few hours. Or only to the killer, who knows...

 

This idea has a lot of holes but we may need something along these lines to really keep the all against the world feeling of the dregs.

 

 

 

Actually there is one other ruleset, the soulfeather one, but i get the feeling that one would be a bloodbath, a real bloodbath, but it would be fun... maybe.

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I'm all for brainstorming a possible campaign type where the intent is that players would play solo or in a small group.

 

I would not call it the Dregs. No need to claim that title from the Dregs fans that want what it offers-- a place with no restrictions on who you can kill. Its not a place that tells you who you can play with, that is up to you. You just can't take for granted that your team is really on your side. That is a type of sandbox PvP freedom that a lot of Crowfall fans are looking for.

 

By trying to rewrite the rules of the Dregs you will get a lot of misunderstanding in this thread. At the risk of speculating about the contents of your head, I get the feeling that part of the reason you are trying to overwrite the existing Dregs rules is because they don't appeal to you. Keep in mind that they are exactly what some people want. Those people will not take kindly to your dismissal of their preferred campaign type.

 

You are proposing a campaign type with additional restrictions on players, not less, and so I would suggest you call it something else. To be honest, since Shadow is now unclaimed, that is what you might want to call your proposed campaign type.

Edited by Jah

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They have no intention of stopping or hindering guilds hence the two rulesets being redundant. The game is team play, guild based so not sure how coming up with mechanics that work against that fits the vision.

It is team based. I did say up to 6 people could win right? One thing I didn't add but meant to was that they didn't have to start the campaign together. Players and drop, get kicked, or join teams throughout the campaign but the teams can't be more than 6 people. Alliances can exist between two or more teams but again, only 6 will win, making these alliances fragile and not about if one team betray's the other but when will one team betray the other.

 

 

The only way i see they not favoring guilds in the dregs is if they make the winning conditions tied to individuals. It is hard to be exact because we dont know any game modes (except the bloodstone one which favors guilds) but we may see a ruleset that gives points for individuals or small parties.

 

Maybe a ruleset similar to the "get the egg" one where a artifact(or a lot) spawn somewhere in the world and you must hold it for hours to win points and then it respawn. Once the owner dies the artifact will spawn somewhere again (no loot) but the owner can sacrifice it and make it spawn again to stop being a target. Of course, once someone found it everyone can see the owner in their campass but just a general location and once close they must track him down manually.

 

Maybe make it so that if you keep the egg until it auto respawn only you or your party can track it down again by the compass. Or make it so that if killed the egg spawn location will be show to everyone for a few hours. Or only to the killer, who knows...

 

This idea has a lot of holes but we may need something along these lines to really keep the all against the world feeling of the dregs.

 

 

 

Actually there is one other ruleset, the soulfeather one, but i get the feeling that one would be a bloodbath, a real bloodbath, but it would be fun... maybe.

 

And that's what I was thinking of when I thought of making it small team based. Campaign victory would depend on the total points of all team members. The condition would change from CW to CW but that would remain the same. I thought of one goal would be to hold poi's in a king of the hill fashion, getting points while they are there. These king of the hill zones would change of course and would be slit between party members that are on it. So if a point gives 6 points and all 6 of the team is there, each person would get 1 point per tick. But if you are solo, you would get all 6 points per tick. Also thought about the soulfeather one to or something like it. Letting it be all based on K/D. You kill you get a point and if you die you lose a point. Many other ideas could be thrown in here.

 

But just as I said in the OP, Shadow can remain guild paradise while dreg can remain small team free for all land.

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More worlds are just going to split the playerbase even more. Some things sound ideal but its jus gonna be straight dead and its alot more work for the devs.

The world could be smaller too forcing more confrontations so that's a easy fix. The population might need to be a bit bigger but I just thought 30-100 would be ideal for have multiple dregs open at once, making it so guilds couldn't easily just queue at the same time and get into the same ones. But if these numbers could go up and still work as intended then I don't see why not.

Edited by silhaku

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I'm all for brainstorming a possible campaign type where the intent is that players would play solo or in a small group.

 

I would not call it the Dregs. No need to claim that title from the Dregs fans that want what it offers-- a place with no restrictions on who you can kill. Its not a place that tells you who you can play with, that is up to you. You just can't take for granted that your team is really on your side. That is a type of sandbox PvP freedom that a lot of Crowfall fans are looking for.

 

By trying to rewrite the rules of the Dregs you will get a lot of misunderstanding in this thread. At the risk of speculating about the contents of your head, I get the feeling that part of the reason you are trying to overwrite the existing Dregs rules is because they don't appeal to you. Keep in mind that they are exactly what some people want. Those people will not take kindly to your dismissal of their preferred campaign type.

 

You are proposing a campaign type with additional restrictions on players, not less, and so I would suggest you call it something else. To be honest, since Shadow is now unclaimed, that is what you might want to call your proposed campaign type.

 

Well, they said campaigns would have multiple rulesets so i think we are safe. I see campaigns just as some big rules you can build things over.

 

But seriously ACE it would be awesome if you gave us some more info on the rulesets you have planned, we only got the bloodstone one since the kickstarter...

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Dregs just needs to be complete ffa pvp, no special group protection.  That should be the key defining feature. 

 

The whole point of the game is to have different bands for people that have different levels of pain tolerance for pvp, dregs is supposed to be the most hardcore, so I hope they don't soften it up just because some people want to pretend they are hardcore when they really are not. 

 

Give me true FFA pvp, and let the people that can't handle that go play shadows, and let the people that can handle it, have fun again without worrying that joe the carebear is going to muddy up the game.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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http://crowfall.com/en/faq/campaign-modules/

That' s if there is even a shadow band anymore. As you can see, when is comes to the bands its says 'the first question you should ask is, “What kind of team do I want to play on?”'. With bands being primarily different team orients then what would be the difference in dregs and shadow? You are all saying its a guild based game but they wouldn't have a guild oriented band if guild vs guild was the only form of content. Following the trend with alliance wars being at the outer most ring, followed by god loyalties with more numerous yet smaller groups, to organized guild groups.... what do you think is more intimate than a guild group? A Core group am I right? A small band that is organized enough to out class any group of ordinary guild mates right? I believe Friendly Fire falls into the category of Modules. So any band can have Friendly Fire. But what will Make the Dregs unique?

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But what will Make the Dregs unique?

 

Nothing currently, so the choice is either get rid of one (shadow or dregs) or add something in that will differentiate them. I'd personally rather just stick with 2 bands, whatever they are called, and differentiate them as forced faction vs guild FFA. I wonder if the type of small group combat you are suggesting could work for an FFA version of the infected, where small groups/guilds declare themselves for a particular god and then fight it out FFA style, similar to HD. I don't like the idea of forced factions in the infected because of balancing issues, but an FFA version might work for smaller guilds and groups that don't want to swear fealty to the bigger guilds.

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stop guilds from all joining the same dregs world?

 

Make the dreg worlds small, population of 30-100 players each.

 

Then add a queue system that puts you in a random dreg world so there is no Guarantee that you will end up with your guild mates.

 

Only groups of 1-6 can queue together.

 

Only a team of 6 can win. There can be a 2ND, 3rd, and so on but only 6 people can stand at the top. 

 

So basically an Arena or the Hunger Dome?

 

This actually sounds like the Faction rulesets, just smaller scale. Instead of 3-12 sides with large numbers, you have 5-20 with small. Same basic concept.

 

Just toss in elimination, permadeath, and a 1 hour time limit and call it a day.

 

Seems like this could be done tournament style in an EK or a unique ruleset outside of the Dregs/Shadow.

 

As small groups likely wouldn't be accomplishing much in the CW like gathering resources, crafting, capturing strongholds, the design and victory would have to be fairly gamey (KOTH) and I'd hope the winnings would be limited to more bragging (trophies) and not something that could influence CW/battles down the line (power).

 

For me, a list of rules doesn't make for the harshest ruleset. Unknown variables and challenges that can't be planned for on the other hand.

Edited by APE

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For me, a list of rules doesn't make for the harshest ruleset. Unknown variables and challenges that can't be planned for on the other hand.

This is silly, all games are basically a list of rules/parameters...

 

Rules are what determine what people can do in the game world. 

 

As we all know the more themepark rails you have the less emergent behavior will occur, because most people are usually stuck on the rails and with that comes the predicted behavior.

 

Remove more rails and behavior becomes less predictable. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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So basically an Arena or the Hunger Dome?

 

This actually sounds like the Faction rulesets, just smaller scale. Instead of 3-12 sides with large numbers, you have 5-20 with small. Same basic concept.

 

Just toss in elimination, permadeath, and a 1 hour time limit and call it a day.

 

Seems like this could be done tournament style in an EK or a unique ruleset outside of the Dregs/Shadow.

 

As small groups likely wouldn't be accomplishing much in the CW like gathering resources, crafting, capturing strongholds, the design and victory would have to be fairly gamey (KOTH) and I'd hope the winnings would be limited to more bragging (trophies) and not something that could influence CW/battles down the line (power).

 

For me, a list of rules doesn't make for the harshest ruleset. Unknown variables and challenges that can't be planned for on the other hand.

I gave examples of victory objectives before and no one says the objective should appear at the beginning of the match. First is the time to prep/sabotage other teams so when the first objectives do appear they could have the gear advantage. Makes no sense to not have anything to export either so even if a permadeath module was used it would be a waste to kill everyone off early on. For the most bang for your buck groups would focus on getting good gear while they can and start to off people when they are satisfied with what they could possible take back.

 

And that's what I was thinking of when I thought of making it small team based. Campaign victory would depend on the total points of all team members. The condition would change from CW to CW but that would remain the same. I thought of one goal would be to hold poi's in a king of the hill fashion, getting points while they are there. These king of the hill zones would change of course and would be slit between party members that are on it. So if a point gives 6 points and all 6 of the team is there, each person would get 1 point per tick. But if you are solo, you would get all 6 points per tick. Also thought about the soulfeather one to or something like it. Letting it be all based on K/D. You kill you get a point and if you die you lose a point. Many other ideas could be thrown in here.

Also like the devs said they wanted the dregs to be about unstable alliances. So teams aren't locked like in other bands. People could drop there team at any time and join other players if they have less than 6. Alliances would be made between teams that will inevitably end as the campaign start to come to a end. And when it's all said in done, the best team will end up on top. And odds are it's going to be a team of people that didn't even start together. Edited by silhaku

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In my understanding of Crowfall Universe, the closer you get from the Hunger, the more lonely you should feel (and actually are, as even the Gods don't come that close). So, I am for a clear division between the Shadows and the Dregs.

 

Here is my reasoning:

 

EK - social hub, everybody is potentially friends. Place to group up, gear up, etc.

 

God's reach - Planetside2 style, you really need to bother paying attention to only two other enemies. Nothing overwhelming, and you can solo / small group, do fine and have fun. You will most probably grab a bunch of unknown players from an EK and throw expeditions from there.

 

Infected - Planetside2 hardcore, you need to start focusing less on other enemies as you won't be able to manage them all anyway, and much more on your group cohesion, and what you are doing, setting the first proper group goals. You will most probably plays with players you already know, or played with in God's reach.

 

Shadows - Here, small group cohesion is not enough anymore. There are always bigger fishes in the ocean, and they are all around you in this campaign. So you have to get guilded if you want a chance surviving here. Goals are not mere group objectives, they are becoming guild efforts. This is where the true "kingdom VS kingdom" warfare is happening.

 

Dregs - Here, you are on your own. Everybody else is out to get some (of treasures, of fun, of you). This is the Division Dark Zone of Crowfall. You should be able to group up with any random players you come accross, but they could also betray you at any given time. This will allow true hardcore PvP with also true survival skills, as you will have to fight others, read the players, survive the hunger, get away alive, etc.

 

Now, all of these introducing different rulesets, and different group size of players, the in-game momentum will vary from one campaign to another. EK will be the only one "unlimited" in time. The more players involved in the campaign, and the more specific and important the goals are, the longer it will take for momentum to form.

 

Which could mean in terms of campaign length:

 

- God's reach should be relatively the standard length (in time and size): there are multiple small groups, but they all works under the same big banner, and would hop in and out quite often most probably, to allow some needed flexibility. The easy-to-have-fun and softcore PvP in short.

 

- Infected, which should be a "short" big campaign: there are a lot of factions, making it PvP intense, and groups would most probably already have clear setups and goals. Getting in and out would be a more thought out move, and you have less room for improvisation. This is going to be a good old classic FFA in groups.

 

- Shadows, which will be the longest of the three big campaigns: it is an all out for every guilds, making it a true PvP warfare at all time, but where the momentum is the heaviest and longest to get, as it requires whole guilds to get going. It will most probably be composed of really highly intensive PvP fights between guilds, surrounded by more quiet periods, where only small group PvP for PoI (and harvesting / crafting) will happen to my opinion.

 

- Dregs, which should be the shortest, or with completely different rulesets altogether (like unlimited in time, free entry / free exit as long as you are alive for example, like the Dark Zone, could be a way to set it up): here, it is hardcore solo PvP. Period, nobody is here to help you. The best you can get is other random players who may be ok helping you as long as they have their share of the pie, if they don't try to get yours in the meantime.

 

For all these reasons, I don't even understand why we should "merge" the Shadows and the Dregs to start with. They answer completely different type of PvP, suiting different type of players (or just the same players, depending on their mood).

 

On top of that, as we are able to join multiple campaigns, I don't even understand why we don't leave the choice to players?

 

And to finish this reply, I'd rather see a rotation between God's reach and Infected (as they are actually the most similar), depending on the "political affairs" going on in the Gods Pantheon, where Gods will be joining forces at some times, and get divided at other times. That is the best thing to do, if we had to reduce the number of types of campaigns.

 

EDIT: Big World is actually more or less my vision of what the Dregs could be.

Edited by Eaden

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I tryed the FF work together with voice chat thing that some here seem to like so mutch.

 

Group A and B against group C. Trust me thanks to most abilitys attacking in small arks it is impossible to fight together with FF. The moment group C was in melee with group A, Group B couldnt do anything anymore without attacking group A.

It wasnt fun for obvios reasons.

 

people who still want FF in the game have not tested it out yet.

Caldera however did and multiple times. Gues what? It is not fun at all.

 

As sayed abouve it is impossible to even target a singel guy in the melee mess and if you see dozens of red names moving around you, will you check the name every singel time to see if that guy is on your side?

Befor your even half read the name another one pops in front of you hitting you. You hit back a few times and realize it was a friendly.

 

Some things are doomed to fail from the get go. FF was tested in the big world and it is not viable for anyone who wants to work together with more then 5 people.

To make it viable even for big guilds they would need to change so many things ( for exmaple a full overhaul of the combat system with more precise aiming) that it is not worth it for the small playerbase that does enjoy full friendly fire.

 

 

On topic:

The dregs to work out need no FF within the guild. But you could leave your guild to backstab your former team mates. Or maybe even open the gate to another attacking guild.

You could lead them into an ambush etc.

Also as others have allready stated the dregs and shadows are so similar that it would just needlesly seperate the playerbase or even cater to a very small player base so not worth it.


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FF isn't something that should be tested now because the combat is not clean right now, and the playerbase is not skillful enough right now.

 

It should be tested when you can see how it would work in a closer-to-release type environment.

 

Before combat was changed there were people that said they shouldn't do it, they said so passionately, then once it was changed they "saw the light" and acted like it wasn't problematic that they had been so adamantly against it in the first place.

 

To me FF is in a similar place, the people who think it won't work have very little experience with high-skilled coordinated play in FF environments, they simply have no reference point to understand how, when, and why to use it. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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FF isn't something that should be tested now because the combat is not clean right now, and the playerbase is not skillful enough right now.

 

It should be tested when you can see how it would work in a closer-to-release type environment.

 

Before combat was changed there were people that said they shouldn't do it, they said so passionately, then once it was changed they "saw the light" and acted like it wasn't problematic that they had been so adamantly against it in the first place.

 

To me FF is in a similar place, the people who think it won't work have very little experience with high-skilled coordinated play in FF environments, they simply have no reference point to understand how, when, and why to use it. 

combat will not change mutch until release. Im not shure what kind of polish do you think will happen that makes FF viable but i highly doubt it will happen.

But if you really think it will change then i will also ask to refrain from asking for FFA in dregs until it is tested in a game state you wanted.

Edited by Xenotor

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combat will not change mutch until release. Im not shure what kind of polish do you think will happen that makes FF viable but i highly doubt it will happen.

But if you really think it will change then i will also ask to refrain from asking for FFA in dregs until it is tested in a game state you wanted.

Combat has been changing significantly as of late, and it's not done yet.  The combat is far far far from polished.  They don't have all of the classes or abilities in, they haven't optimized the game much (major optimization usually comes after most of the sausage is made), etc etc. 

 

FF simply isn't something that needs to be tested until the combat resembles release combat to a certain degree and the testing base is open enough to where you get the really skilled people trying to coordinate with each other. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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