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silhaku

Seperating Dreg from Shadow again? Why why not?

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What separates the campaign bands should be security.

The two main factors concerning security is the Group/Faction function (which includes a potential Friendly Fire system) and the loot system (IE. How much loot is dropped or destroyed on death).

 

Going from EK to Dregs:

 

EK: In your own EK, you should have no enemies unless you want to and you won't ever lose your equipment.

God's Reach: If you stay inside your faction's reach, you should be pretty safe and you'll be able to venture out in big groups of allies. You'll lose some equipment due to decay or death.

Infected: Your safe areas are now smaller, you have fewer allies and more enemies and venturing out will result in more danger. You'll start losing more items due to decay or death.

Shadows: Your only allies will be your guild members (where everyone who is part of the guild is its own faction) and the only safe places will be the ones you or your build builds. Your general safety will depend on your guild. Items destroyed or stolen will be a regular thing.

Dregs: You are partly on your own. You will be able to group up into small groups, but everyone else will be an enemy and working together will be hard and you never know if your teammate is going to /leavegroup and backstab you. Big safe spaces will be rare and you'll nearly always have to be on your toes or risk losing everything.

 

While you will have guilds playing in every campaign band, it's really the shadows where they will shine. Smaller, more intricate guilds will perform very well in the Dregs, though.

So the difference is bigger guilds playing out in larger, longer campaigns where castles will be build and destroyed versus smaller, more intricate guilds, where fighting will consist of smaller skirmish battles.


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I will mention something Xenotor just said to me in simply but clear terms, and which is a great point I completely overlooked (and I may not be the only one):

 

but you cant do anything alone
this game is meant for guilds
you cant build a castle solo
you cant build equip solo
you can not even harvest all the stuff solo
so whats the point of going in solo
and what would be the goal
there needs to be a clear winner and a clear looser

 

Which makes total sense. Dregs cannot be proposing both the best loots / resources, the most solo / hard PvP experience, and requesting team / guild effort to get all of these out. That can really hardly work together under these conditions.

 

Apart if you manage extremely well human dynamics. But the risk would most probably far exceed the reward.

Edited by Eaden

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I will mention something Xenotor just said to me in simply but clear terms, and which is a great point I completely overlooked (and I may not be the only one):

 

 

Which makes total sense. Dregs cannot be proposing both the best loots / resources, the most solo / hard PvP experience, and requesting team / guild effort to get all of these out. That cannot work together under these conditions.

 

Apart if you manage extremely well human dynamics. But the risk would most probably far exceed the reward.

Dregs isn't preventing you from grouping though, it's just making it so that grouping isn't based on magical theme park rails like other bands.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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There are multiple reasons why I made this suggestion. I have on one end a group of people that think dregs is good the way it is (pretty much like big world is now) and on the other end a group of people saying shadows isn't needed because the guilds will just fight (and rule) in the dregs because that's where the loot it. Nothing is really stopping a mass zerg guild from joining the same dreg world and steamrolling it.

 

Friendly fire might help but in the end I'm sorta agree with Xenotor. The way combat works now it wouldn't seem like fun for any level of group play. And even if combat changes to the point where it is, it still won't stop big guilds because they will work past it. Members will learn and even if they don't, they will still likely kill any small group before they kill one another. (Honestly it will just make everyone go ranged 9/10). Last thing on FF as I said before, if it is implemented it should be a module and not a overall part of a band. Dreg being most likely to have it is fine but it should be possible on any (or at least in shadow also) bands.

 

So in the end, to make a clear distinction between dregs and shadow before one of them ends up getting the boot, I tried to come with a way to make it less accessible for guilds and give it a clear distinction between shadows. In god's reach only one faction can win. In infection one god. In shadows one guild. In dreg I want to see either one player or one small group of players. A party essentially.

 

Under the suggestion I made I not only put a way to do all of the above but it also encourages the back stabbing, unfriendly nature that they want the Dregs to have. Do I want all of my ideas used? No but I at least want to make it known that dregs is more than worth having it's own band away from shadows and shadows from dregs, and to point out that guild content isn't the only content and I'd like to keep it that way.

Edited by silhaku

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If you think there will not be team/guild play to manipulate the outcome of a "small group" based CW, then you are sadly mistaken. Look to the Hunger Dome if you need any further evidence. Guilds will find a way to advantage themselves while all the "solo" players cry foul. As others have said, even if you could somehow eliminate any guild coordination, in order to do so you will no longer be playing crowfall. A small team is not sufficient to accomplish everything that must be done (craft/harvest/fight). Now you really would be playing a MOBA, not a MMO. Risk vs reward will be the motivating factor, if there is not a sufficient reward for the time invested to play this modified solo/team band then no one will play, if the rewards are great enough then players will form groups outside of the game constraints to advantage themselves. 

 

If you limit the game world to multiple random 30-100 player worlds, could you truly say you are the baddest player around or did you get luck of the draw and play with a bunch of scrubs? Now you have to introduce some sort of match making ranking system, which as a small studio that is already short on resources can't afford to focus on.

 

Friendly Fire: As conceptualized by the devs is the ability to damage anyone who is not in your group/party. Want to shoot your guild leader in the back of the head? Go for it. In bands such as Gods Reach and the other faction based rule sets, friendly fire will be disabled to prevent griefing. The only bands to likely have friendly fire as envisioned by the devs will be those that break "teams" down to at least the guild level.

Edited by Verot

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I will mention something Xenotor just said to me in simply but clear terms, and which is a great point I completely overlooked (and I may not be the only one):

 

 

Which makes total sense. Dregs cannot be proposing both the best loots / resources, the most solo / hard PvP experience, and requesting team / guild effort to get all of these out. That can really hardly work together under these conditions.

 

Apart if you manage extremely well human dynamics. But the risk would most probably far exceed the reward.

 

The dregs can propose the best loot/resource because as the devs have said, it is intended as the place that guilds will battle for. The Dregs represent the greatest risk because when you start you are not automatically allied with hundreds/thousands of other players who can't harm you. JTC said that the Dregs will most closely resemble Shadowbane. Shadowbane was a guild focused game. Just because the dregs will most likely be dominated by guilds, does not mean that players who prefer small group play will have no place there. There is a place for small groups/guilds but they will need to manage their expectations. No guild of 15 players should expect to compete head to head with guilds made up of 100+ players. These small guilds must find their niche and stay in their lane because otherwise they will simply get steamrolled. Fair? No but its not meant to be fair, its simple fact.

Edited by Verot

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..... OK, I hate repeating myself but as I said before. You can queue with a pre-made party. As long as it doesn't exceed 6 players. If the devs want bigger or smaller party sizes that's up to them. So it won't be just all random groups. Some will be small guild groups. I just don't want a entire guild to join one Dreg and dominate it. At that point the shadows band would be pointless. Dreg has better loot, more smaller groups to bully, and more than likely a harsher loot system to scavenge off of. Of course to biggest guilds will go there because their size will keep them safe. Those guilds should stay in shadows.

 

And for FF, no one knows what FF will look like, but that shouldn't be the only difference between the shadow bands and the dreg. FF for only shadow and dreg bands? Yes I can agree with that. But that's not the primary purpose of bands, that is a module.

 

Bands are primary what you choose when looking for what type on team you want to play on. God's reach is faction, infect is loyalty to god's, shadow is guild (and it should remain shadow), and dreg should be something smaller. So why make a dreg if it will be another guild band?

Edited by silhaku

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..... OK, I hate repeating myself but as I said before. You can queue with a pre-made party. As long as it doesn't exceed 6 players. If the devs want bigger or smaller party sizes that's up to them. So it won't be just all random groups. Some will be small guild groups. I just don't want a entire guild to join one Dreg and dominate it. At that point the shadows band would be pointless. Dreg has better loot, more smaller groups to bully, and more than likely a harsher look system. Of course to biggest guilds will go there because their size will keep them safe. Those guilds should stay in shadows.

 

And for FF, no one knows what FF will look like, but that shouldn't be the only difference between the shadow bands and the dreg. FF for only shadow and dreg bands? Yes I can agree with that. But that's not the primary purpose of bands, that is a module.

 

Bands are primary what you choose when looking for what type on team you want to play on. God's reach is faction, infect is loyalty to god's, shadow is guild (and it should remain shadow), and dreg should be something smaller. So why make a dreg if it will be another guild band?

 

Do you know what guilds looked like in Shadowbane? JTC said the Dregs will basically be Shadowbane. You also assume there will be dozens(?) of Dregs worlds available to queue for.  You ignore the point of a dregs world if you limit it down the way you are describing. What does it matter if you queue with 6 people but your guild has 30 teams? Nothing stops those 30 teams from not fighting each other. The world you are describing simply is not crowfall. Crowfall is not an arena style game, it was never designed to be one.

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Bands are primary what you choose when looking for what type on team you want to play on. God's reach is faction, infect is loyalty to god's, shadow is guild (and it should remain shadow), and dreg should be something smaller. So why make a dreg if it will be another guild band?

 

This is exactly why JTC said that the Dreg/Shadow will most likely be merged because there is not enough to differentiate them from one another.

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Where exactly did he say this?

Ok my memory was a little off, he did not say "most likely".

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/4i09af/crowfallartcraft_ama_with_ace_founders_coleman/

 

During a few interviews there were discussions about the difference between bands, and how it wasn't yet clear what would be the major differences between Dregs and Shadow rulesets. Maybe some details got figured out since then? =P

 
 

[–]JtoddcolemanArtCraft Ent. Creative Director 3 points

6 months ago 

OK, Courant. I'll bite.

Here's the deal: originally the idea was that the different bands were logical groups of particular 'knob settings' for a Campaign. Like the difference between playing a game on 'easy' versus 'hardcore' mode.

At some point along the way, it became obvious that this wasn't the easiest way to explain it. When people say "what is God's Reach?", the answer wasn't to detail out the knobs, instead it was: "that's the 3-faction world".

"Team Selection" became the defining knob for each band. I didn't think of it that way, originally, but in retrospect -- yeah, of course it makes sense. The easiest way for people to build a mental map of what the experience in that Campaign might look like is to relate it to an experience they already know/understand.

The first two (God's Reach and Infected) are both faction-based, more like DAoC. Players understand that. 12-faction isn't hard to imagine, either, especially since it's 4 chaos - 4 balance - 4 order. The other two are more free-form, like Shadowbane. but that's the challenge; if it's free-form, then there isn't a simple difference like "12 factions, not 3".

and since the guild system is still in development, I've been putting off the distinction between the two until I could see how the guild system "feels", and see if there is an obvious distinction that makes sense. The other alternative would be to combine these bands (Shadow and Dregs) into one -- still offering the same variables / knobs as before -- but lumping then back together since the team mechanics are the same and (now) that seems to be the defining characteristic for "world band".

I don't like to make high profile changes like that, so I figured we would just wait and see what happens. if it makes sense to keep them as separate bands, great. if it turns out that it makes more sense to collapse them into one, OK, we can always do it closer to launch.

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The whole idea of the dregs and shadow was silly to begin with. I mean wtf does FFA mean in a clearly team focused game? Especially since the dregs were going to have guilds and similar win conditions as the shadow. 

 

Folding the shadows into the dregs makes a whole lot more sense, and I think we'll see a lot more of these rulesets condensed as well.

 

In CF the individual is just a cog in a great machine (the guild).

Edited by izkimar

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Ok my memory was a little off, he did not say "most likely".

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/4i09af/crowfallartcraft_ama_with_ace_founders_coleman/

 

During a few interviews there were discussions about the difference between bands, and how it wasn't yet clear what would be the major differences between Dregs and Shadow rulesets. Maybe some details got figured out since then? =P

 

 
 

[–]JtoddcolemanArtCraft Ent. Creative Director 3 points

6 months ago  

OK, Courant. I'll bite.

Here's the deal: originally the idea was that the different bands were logical groups of particular 'knob settings' for a Campaign. Like the difference between playing a game on 'easy' versus 'hardcore' mode.

At some point along the way, it became obvious that this wasn't the easiest way to explain it. When people say "what is God's Reach?", the answer wasn't to detail out the knobs, instead it was: "that's the 3-faction world".

"Team Selection" became the defining knob for each band. I didn't think of it that way, originally, but in retrospect -- yeah, of course it makes sense. The easiest way for people to build a mental map of what the experience in that Campaign might look like is to relate it to an experience they already know/understand.

The first two (God's Reach and Infected) are both faction-based, more like DAoC. Players understand that. 12-faction isn't hard to imagine, either, especially since it's 4 chaos - 4 balance - 4 order. The other two are more free-form, like Shadowbane. but that's the challenge; if it's free-form, then there isn't a simple difference like "12 factions, not 3".

and since the guild system is still in development, I've been putting off the distinction between the two until I could see how the guild system "feels", and see if there is an obvious distinction that makes sense. The other alternative would be to combine these bands (Shadow and Dregs) into one -- still offering the same variables / knobs as before -- but lumping then back together since the team mechanics are the same and (now) that seems to be the defining characteristic for "world band".

I don't like to make high profile changes like that, so I figured we would just wait and see what happens. if it makes sense to keep them as separate bands, great. if it turns out that it makes more sense to collapse them into one, OK, we can always do it closer to launch.

 

 

This is a good explanation and I really think it'll come down to whether or not they can differentiate enough from Dregs vs. Shadows and the best way to do that is this:

 

 

To me shadows and dregs are a pretty big difference.  Guild immunity vs true FFA.

 

Question becomes whether or not true FFA (with friendly fire) even works. If it does, great, then that can be the Dregs and Shadows can be guild immunity. If FFA with friendly fire doesn't work then I could see them combined.

 

Another thought is how the friendly fire even works in the Dregs. Do we keep it like big world where group members can't be hit and keep group sizes small to say 5 people? Is that enough of a difference between full guild immunity to friendly fire? Or do we make it like Darkfall where you can hit even your group members and would a system like that work?

 

It's going to require testing which is basically what Todd said. Too early to tell. 

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To me shadows and dregs are a pretty big difference.  Guild immunity vs true FFA.

Is that enough to differentiate a world band?

 

If so then you could expect the "zerg" to run around in the Shadows because they are immune from their 100+ members and can simply zerg ball to victory while the Dregs wold basically be Shadowbane, where you can hit anyone not in your group. This would push most guilds to the dregs while the super guilds fight in the Shadows. Maybe? You will still have massive guilds join the Dregs but will need to be slightly more coordinated.

 

I don't think the guild immunity will be enough to offset the lure of better resources in the Dregs to prevent massive guilds from joining the Dregs.

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This is a good explanation and I really think it'll come down to whether or not they can differentiate enough from Dregs vs. Shadows and the best way to do that is this:

 

 

 

Question becomes whether or not true FFA (with friendly fire) even works. If it does, great, then that can be the Dregs and Shadows can be guild immunity. If FFA with friendly fire doesn't work then I could see them combined.

 

Another thought is how the friendly fire even works in the Dregs. Do we keep it like big world where group members can't be hit and keep group sizes small to say 5 people? Is that enough of a difference between full guild immunity to friendly fire? Or do we make it like Darkfall where you can hit even your group members and would a system like that work?

 

It's going to require testing which is basically what Todd said. Too early to tell. 

It would work, the problem is testing it now isn't the right time.  The big world version is not true friendly fire, that would be catering to a softer crowd. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Is that enough to differentiate a world band?

 

If so then you could expect the "zerg" to run around in the Shadows because they are immune from their 100+ members and can simply zerg ball to victory while the Dregs wold basically be Shadowbane, where you can hit anyone not in your group. This would push most guilds to the dregs while the super guilds fight in the Shadows. Maybe? You will still have massive guilds join the Dregs but will need to be slightly more coordinated.

 

I don't think the guild immunity will be enough to offset the lure of better resources in the Dregs to prevent massive guilds from joining the Dregs.

Massive guilds are going to run trains on everybody no matter what the ruleset is, just because they have more.

 

FF was successful in dfo because the nature of that combat system and the tools available to you were different. 

I haven't really noticed The effect of FF in BW.

Edited by helix

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It would work, the problem is testing it now isn't the right time.  The big world version is not true friendly fire, that would be catering to a softer crowd. 

I'll need to dig up the quote from JTC, but his concept of friendly fire is basically anyone not in your group is subject to damage. Nothing said by the devs so far has hinted at exposing your group to damage from the group.

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It is important that dregs have full FF because it completely changes the way combat is executed, and the dregs needs to be a very unique experience, it truly needs to be the wild wild west, and allow for the most chaos.  In offering that chaos it also gives truly extraordinary players the opportunity to push coordination to a level that is simply not attainable with theme park immunity.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I'll need to dig up the quote from JTC, but his concept of friendly fire is basically anyone not in your group is subject to damage. Nothing said by the devs so far has hinted at exposing your group to damage from the group.

That's not really friendly fire. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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