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silhaku

Seperating Dreg from Shadow again? Why why not?

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A lot of people worrying about how hardcore they are and how hardcore the game must be...

The reality is completely different.

First, things like FF and collision detection must prove to be reliable in terms of server and network capability of handling this amount of calculations.

Second....hey you who think this game should be hardcore as hell...this game does not need hardcore people and rulesets to succeed.

​It needs MONEY. And the vast majority of players out there, with money to spend, are hardcore in real life with work, wives, kids etc...and just want a game to spend time in. I'm not saying u shouldn't be hardcore but even hardcore players need non hardcore ones.

Different rulesets in parallel worlds is a hell of an idea and if right implemented could make this game appealing to a lot of different playstyles and hardcore levels of a lot of different types of players, at the same time (i.e. a lot of MONEY).

First, if FF failed because of server and network capability then all combat would fail, because FF is just an extension of who you can or can not attack. 

 

Second, if the game isn't hardcore then how is it going to appeal to the best pvpers?  It's like offering flag football vs tackle football. 

 

The game is designed to cater to many different styles, no reason hardcore players shouldn't be represented in one of those styles.  But they are potentially not going to have a ruleset that caters to the hardcore players?  They might cater to a softer crowd that wants to pretend they are hardcore?

 

This is where i stand as well. This game by nature of what it is, is well already hardcore. And this game needs money to do well and it needs a playerbase to do that. If they cater to the super hardcore, its gonna be a super small niche game with a very tiny and declining population. ACE needs to figure out how to balance all this. Dont forget we still got other RvR type games releasing in the next few years and thats more competition. This is where my concern is. I want Crowfall to do well and for it to do that it needs to feel competitive it needs to give new players who played for a few months like they can fight an win vs vets who played 1 year plus. And it cant really divide its population so much with so many rulesets or that will just make each very small or some even dead.

In theory you would think the game is hardcore by nature, but there are so many things that can get watered down and made to cater to convenience that it can change drastically.  What if they throw in a minimap?  What if they add autorun?  What if they add toggled actions?  What if they make attacks and hitboxes too generous?  What if they make combat too slow?  What if they make looting too easy? 

 

The major problem with passive training is new player vs vet, they should have just made it all active training so that people can be as proficient as they want to invest themselves into being.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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The game is designed to cater to many different styles, no reason hardcore players shouldn't be represented in one of those styles.  But they are potentially not going to have a ruleset that caters to the hardcore players?  They might cater to a softer crowd that wants to pretend they are hardcore?

 

In theory you would think the game is hardcore by nature, but there are so many things that can get watered down and made to cater to convenience that it can change drastically.  What if they throw in a minimap?  What if they add autorun?  What if they add toggled actions?  What if they make attacks and hitboxes too generous?  What if they make combat too slow?  What if they make looting too easy?

 

I have to agree that I am seeing a lot of request for "cattering" on the forum. But it is up to ACE to implement them or not in the game. We cannot hate "softers" for asking: we are in development phase. All ideas are worth considering.

 

Now, I am quite sure the Shawdows would be the feeding ground to rule on the Dregs. Not the other way around.

 

And about weither or not we should merge those two, I let ACE do the thinking and us do the trying. We'll see how things turn out. If it is good fun, we will keep it, and if it is not, we won't. That easy.

 

The major problem with passive training is new player vs vet, they should have just made it all active training so that people can be as proficient as they want to invest themselves into being.

 

No. There is NO problem with the passive training in itself:

- dimishing returns, with really low extra bonus granted on top of that

- a lot more is added through gear, discipline runes, advantages/disadvantages, etc: all available to new players.

- a veteran will, in the end, only relaly have the advantage of diversity and flexibility of gameplay (which is a perks to have)

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First, if FF failed because of server and network capability then all combat would fail, because FF is just an extension of who you can or can not attack. 

 

Second, if the game isn't hardcore then how is it going to appeal to the best pvpers?  It's like offering flag football vs tackle football. 

 

The game is designed to cater to many different styles, no reason hardcore players shouldn't be represented in one of those styles.  But they are potentially not going to have a ruleset that caters to the hardcore players?  They might cater to a softer crowd that wants to pretend they are hardcore?

 

In theory you would think the game is hardcore by nature, but there are so many things that can get watered down and made to cater to convenience that it can change drastically.  What if they throw in a minimap?  What if they add autorun?  What if they add toggled actions?  What if they make attacks and hitboxes too generous?  What if they make combat too slow?  What if they make looting too easy? 

 

The major problem with passive training is new player vs vet, they should have just made it all active training so that people can be as proficient as they want to invest themselves into being.

 

 

Football has a huge following, flag football does not. Some of these pvpers may think they are good but really they just fighting against such a small playerbase that its not hard to do. You got it backwards imo. Crowfall needs a good amount of playerbase for any of it to work proper. Also no one is talking about minimaps or autorun or generous hitboxes, we are talking about Dreggs and Shadow.

 

Im not sure how i feel about active and passive training, my worry is just the power gap in between.

 

No. There is NO problem with the passive training in itself:

- dimishing returns, with really low extra bonus granted on top of that

- a lot more is added through gear, discipline runes, advantages/disadvantages, etc: all available to new players.

- a veteran will, in the end, only relaly have the advantage of diversity and flexibility of gameplay (which is a perks to have)

 

Your last line "a veteran will, in the end, only really have the advantage of diversity and flexibility of gameplay (which is a perks to have)" is exactly what i hope ACE will do in the end. As a vet your advantage should be flexibility and diversity, just raw power.

Edited by krevra

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Football has a huge following, flag football does not. Some of these pvpers may think they are good but really they just fighting against such a small playerbase that its not hard to do. You got it backwards imo. Crowfall needs a good amount of playerbase for any of it to work proper. Also no one is talking about minimaps or autorun or generous hitboxes, we are talking about Dreggs and Shadow.

 

Yes, this ties into my concept earlier, that FF needs to be tested later on, when more players are playing and the combat is more polished.  As far as needing a good playerbase, they will have one, because they cater to all sorts of levels of engagement, but they need to make sure they also give the most hardcore players a place to play too.  And I'm sorry but dregs and shadows ties into catering to convenience too, because it may also end up that way. 

 

Im not sure how i feel about active and passive training, my worry is just the power gap in between.

 

 

Your last line "a veteran will, in the end, only really have the advantage of diversity and flexibility of gameplay (which is a perks to have)" is exactly what i hope ACE will do in the end. As a vet your advantage should be flexibility and diversity, just raw power.

 

I disagree with this sentiment, these games are about some sort of persistence and importance on decision making, they are not arenas where everyone is supposed to start off on a level playing field all of the time.  It's about adapting to different situations with different gaps in power, stats, equipment, and various other factors. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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So why make a shadows if it will be another guild band?

 

Don't and done.

 

Why make a band to cater to individuals/small groups in the hopes to prevent larger forces from winning when there is little to stop this from happening?

 

Why take a Throne War concept and try to fit a Individual/Small Group Skirmish into it that resembles an Arena more than a MMO?

 

Why take an open world large scale design and restrict it down with gamey mechanics to allow not only small groups but possibly individuals to "win" an entire CW?

 

Why make a "fair" band at the center instead of the harshest?

 

There's nothing wrong with your concept, but it seems more like a combo of attributes/modules than a stand a lone band. At least not the "core" of the game, which the Dregs has been from the get go.

 

The only thing your concept appears to do is throw a speed bump at larger forces from joining up. Beyond that, it provides nothing else that can't be accomplished in other bands with a few toggles flipped on/off.

 

The Dregs with zero import, winner take all, loser gets nothing, FFA, with or without FF is most likely what many are hoping for. Little to no rules/restrictions, just you and whomever you can band together with vs everyone else.

 

Obviously numbers will matter, but this is why politics/strategy and playing "the game" matter. They said long ago the small forces would need to join up as the seasons go by to have a chance vs the larger teams. Much like GOT or real life warfare.

 

This is where risk vs reward comes into play and hopefully some systems to entice teams from not growing too large, due to upkeep/penalties or little rewards to go around.

 

At least that's what I hope to see.

 

 

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Let us not forget that the core module that we all backed is a game that is the Dregs CW band. All of the other CWs are an afterthought. When the game goes into "soft launch" we will have the Dregs. All of the other bands will be introduced at a later time, until then we will have the Dregs aka Shadowbane ruleset.

 

Just because the team/ally composition is the same as Shadowbane does not mean that CF is a SB clone. In SB you had lone wolf players, you had small guilds, you had large guilds, you had massive alliance, and each one of those players/groups had a place in the world.

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The Shadows band was promised during Kickstart when we passed that stretch goal, so it will happen. There's no rush though.

So long as we get it before ACE tries to develop naval combat, I'm happy.

Just because it was promised does not mean it will be delivered. Remember that VIP has changed along with several other things. ACE has said that if they change or remove something that they plan on replacing it with something else meaningful.

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So we will only have the dregs at launch? This could be troublesome since people will have to, at some point, go from a ruleset they are already used to to other ruleset with less rewards. And the hardcore part of the dregs may really turn people, who could enjoy the game, down...

 

We really need more info on the rulesets because right now ALL of them are basically the same whth the dregs winning because of the rewards...

 

Also when the dregs become playable all the others rulesets should follow right? Since you can basically  just change the rules no?

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So we will only have the dregs at launch? This could be troublesome since people will have to, at some point, go from a ruleset they are already used to to other ruleset with less rewards. And the hardcore part of the dregs may really turn people, who could enjoy the game, down...

 

We really need more info on the rulesets because right now ALL of them are basically the same whth the dregs winning because of the rewards...

 

Also when the dregs become playable all the others rulesets should follow right? Since you can basically  just change the rules no?

 

The only thing that makes dregs unique is that it will be FFA rather than faction based. That contributes to it being more "hardcore" sure but it's not the only thing, and maybe not even the most significant one. The individual rule sets can alter how difficult each world is. I am not sure it was the best idea to make the quality of resources dependent on world band based on an arbitrary definition of "more difficult", since there will be a lot of variability in worlds even within the same world band. I think you are right in that people who begin playing in a less hardcore version of the dregs (if such a thing exists) might wonder why they are getting significantly less for their effort in God's Reach when the only thing that has changed is FFA vs faction. I am not sure that is enough of a difference to warrant a drastic change in resource quality but maybe.

Edited by Mytherceria

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The only thing that makes dregs unique is that it will be FFA rather than faction based. That contributes to it being more "hardcore" sure but it's not the only thing, and maybe not even the most significant one. The individual rule sets can alter how difficult each world is. I am not sure it was the best idea to make the quality of resources dependent on world band based on an arbitrary definition of "more difficult", since there will be a lot of variability in worlds even within the same world band. I think you are right in that people who begin playing in a less hardcore version of the dregs (if such a thing exists) might wonder why they are getting significantly less for their effort in God's Reach when the only thing that has changed is FFA vs faction. I am not sure that is enough of a difference to warrant a drastic change in resource quality but maybe.

 

They also said the dregs would be full loot, harsher items decay (?), probable harder survival stuff... Not thaaat hardcore but still, once you get used to that there is no reason to play in the others rulesets... unless you find the dregs too much for ya and cannot wait for the other rules sets (which may hurt the game overall sucess)

Edited by BarriaKarl

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I really dont think Dregs will pan out like some of these guys think. People are going to group up they are going to zerg for those rewards, Believe me not many are going go to in alone. Then its just gonna be qq from the guys who think Dregs is just solo play an ganking and ask for mechanics to prevent that, even tho they claim hardcore. If you tried playing one of these survival game vs groups you prob know what i mean, even more so when the rewards in the end are pretty great.

 

I think soft launch with shadow would be best imo, it will teach people the game and encourage working together and figuring out who crafters etc. Look i get it with survival and super hardcore but alot of these hardcore games are NOT MMO's they have limited amounts of players with no sort of reward cept bragging rights in the end. You cant get very far in Crowfall alone, i think that much is clear.

Edited by krevra

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I really dont think Dregs will pan out like some of these guys think. People are going to group up they are going to zerg for those rewards, Believe me not many are going go to in alone. Then its just gonna be qq from the guys who think Dregs is just solo play an ganking and ask for mechanics to prevent that, even tho they claim hardcore. If you tried playing one of these survival game vs groups you prob know what i mean, even more so when the rewards in the end are pretty great.

 

I think soft launch with shadow would be best imo, it will teach people the game and encourage working together and figuring out who crafters etc. Look i get it with survival and super hardcore but alot of these hardcore games are NOT MMO's they have limited amounts of players with no sort of reward cept bragging rights in the end. You cant get very far in Crowfall alone, i think that much is clear.

They are going to zerg, but it's not going to be as effective if they make it full friendly fire.  The more soft they go on friendly fire, the more friendly the game becomes to softer players. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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They also said the dregs would be full loot, harsher items decay (?), probable harder survival stuff... Not thaaat hardcore but still, once you get used to that there is no reason to play in the others rulesets... unless you find the dregs too much for ya and cannot wait for the other rules sets (which may hurt the game overall sucess)

I am wondering. If they only start out with dregs, then dregs might end up having varying degrees of this "harder stuff" to satisfy different tolerance levels. Not all dregs worlds will have full loot, for example. This is a precedent that may cause long term confusion, so it might be better if they made it a priority to start off with both God's Reach and Dregs, if possible.

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All funded stretch goals were added to the "core module" and are supposed to be delivered at game launch. This includes the Gods Reach and Infected rulesets. Was Shadow ever an actual stretch goal or committed core feature, or was it just part of the design docs?


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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All funded stretch goals were added to the "core module" and are supposed to be delivered at game launch. This includes the Gods Reach and Infected rulesets. Was Shadow ever an actual stretch goal or committed core feature, or was it just part of the design docs?

 

"

$2 MILLION (+ $60K)

UNLOCKED!

 
  • The SHADOW world rules set!
  • Finishing out our remaining "World Bands", the Shadow ruleset is specifically aimed toward pre-existing guilds to vie for control of each Campaign."

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