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Baobhan

Metallurgy Disc / Skill Unlock - refining ore etc

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As the game is presently set, EK will possess harvestable resources but will be restricted to the lowest quality tiers.  It strikes me that while restricting higher tier drops to CW is a good idea - being a sound way of requiring crafters to either venture into CW or rely on others to gather resources and materials for them - any other avenue to acquiring resources could be introduced. 

 

Metallurgy.

Part of the physical sciences, metallurgy is an art pursued by alchemists and craftspeople reaching far back into the past. One of the key pursuits being the refining of low grade ores into high grade metals. Metallurgy is already mechanically implicit in the smelting of metal bars and alloys but could be developed further to allow us to turn 3 trash ores into a common ore, 5 common into an uncommon, 10, 20, etc.

As a primary model we often see several routes available in playstyles to accomplish the same goals. The common dichotomy in approach being RISK vs TIME. Metallurgy could supply the TIME (+ mass expenditure) route. 

The same system could apply to any resource, because alchemy is awesome and even wood should strive for its platonic form.

tl;dr

Allow Crafters, either through a skill unlock or discipline to increase the tier of raw resources through alchemy and metallurgy - trading time and increasingly taxing exchange rates.

 

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Even bots would be slowed by node regen times, the need for sufficient runetools, inventory space, and - presuming that EKs cannot be made completely safe - fending off mobs.

Still I wonder - if ACE were to allow thralls to be assigned to work the land, would that limit the number of botters who would bother setting their characters to mechanical drudgery? Coding for thrall workers to harvest essentially trash tier resources preempts botting and allows ACE to set the variables as they see fit for balance. It also gates passive harvesting by requiring thralls (liberated from CW). The Thralls wouldn't produce as much as a skilled harvester, but if a legitimate avenue is available then hopefully less people will cheat by employing botting.

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im against the idea. Risk vs reward if you want to craft you have to risk pvp.

As said abouve bots would trash the EK economy. Even with hp reg bots can be and would be programmed to counter that.

 

 

This game is caterd as PVP game with only EK beeing a safe zone.

Campains themself have no safezone for the very reason of crafters not bunkering down with "server magic"


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Let's say it is an ideal world, and bots are not existing.

 

If this Metallurgy skill is around, I create a new guild with an alt account, I spam newcomers with beautiful promises until they join and farm for me, and take advantage of their candor to make myself rich.

 

People says it works well in Archeage.

 

More seriously: risk VS reward.

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If bots were not an issue and the system required a lot of work for lower grade ore to be upgraded, I wouldn't have a problem with it.  I'm just afraid the bots would cause mass inflation like they did in EVE.  The mobs were never enough to cause mining bots many problems and programs like roid ripper even avoided players pretty well.  I think the ore they dumped on the market was one of the leading causes of the inflation problem EVE had, not to mention how much it hurt legit miners by devaluing their work. 

 

Edit: I doubt many bots will have trouble with the crafting system as it is now, you would need to drop off the resources at a base anyway so placing a crafting station next to the box they drop the ore in would be an easy solution.  They craft the new runes, equip them, and clear the inventory to a second chest to prevent old runes from piling up.

Edited by vaevictus333

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I do like the idea of thralls being able to collect resources at a slow rate.  I'm not sure if thralls can be found in the EK, but if they can, you would need to limit their quality.  You should have to risk the CW to get a thrall that is decent for harvesting, for this reason, I wouldn't be too happy with thalls being captured in the eternal kingdom if that is the current plan.

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I appreciate the arguments that are being made - Bots are a concern and human sweat shops will factor into the economy of Crowful. These are true regardless of the notion of refining ore through metallurgy.

As a gut reaction, I wholehearted agree with a cost benefit analysis of the risk of having this ability appearing greater than the reward. But I think the risk is overstated, in part because of the economic argument - here is why.

Presuming botting occurs in EKs, is employed to harvest and refine mass quantities of trash resources into legendary, Crowfall's economy would see more high tier resources enter into the market at a lowered price.

Sweat shops happen, that's just a thing. If some enthusiastic newbie is willing to line another player's pockets for an extended period that's on them - so I'll move on.

More legendary raw materials shifts the valuable economic activities away from mining and into crafting processed items. The gold standard of raw resources will be additives - winter's roses, griffin heart's etc - and thralls, each of which as far as I know will only be found in CW. This does appear to punish dedicated harvesters, who are already punished by the skill tree progression (durablity reduction skills for EVERY type of tool! tier 2+3+4+5 skills that don't apply until maxed out!!! - leveling harvesting looks set to be awful unless ACE changes the skill tree).
 
As I put forward metallurgy could turn approximately 90'000 trash ore into 1 legendary; 30'000 common ore; 6'000 uncommon; 600 rare; 30 epic. With the numbers set down, it becomes more intuitive that this skill doesn't really risk an economic flood. It isn't even really worth considering - the key use for it would be making up resource shortfalls for blueprints. Say we change our numbers to something botters are more likely to consider - even a significantly more generous psuedo-flat conversion rate of 3/1 for trash then 5/1 for the rest would require 1'875 trash ore into 1 legendary; 625 common ore; 125 uncommon; 25 rare; 5 epic. This seems very generous but a master miner in a CW might crack several legendary ores per hour, and then have the ability to refine their lesser grade ores to legend using metallurgy. Meanwhile the botters might crack 50 trash and 10 commons per hour, while risking a ban? Personally, I think the risk bots incur is higher than the reward they receive.

But still, a solution that should help - what if trash and common resources cannot be refined, only uncommon and higher? This would remove the ability to refine EK farmed resources while still allowing resources to be refined to the benefit of honest harvesters who invest in the skill and crafters who want to make up shortfalls on the fly.

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I'm against it. Players in the dregs can spend months fighting and end up with nothing at the end while the victors enjoy the spoils. No matter the conversion rate, this would undermine the efforts of those players.

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Isnt this what the potions currently do give you more mats, why not be in a skill line. just small increments or the like.

 

Yes, you can get more mats while harvesting by raising your skills. That is exactly what the potions do, they simulate having higher harvesting skills.


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As the game is presently set, EK will possess harvestable resources but will be restricted to the lowest quality tiers. 

 

 

Indeed, they will lose out on like, 10 whole attack power!

 

But on a serious note. The quality increases the potential and the chance to get better stats on gear. What this means is, theres possibility ( a fair one at that ) you could produce the lower quality gear thats better then legendary quality gear. 

 

So if you have 900 pieces of quality level 3 ore and 27 of quality level 6 ore, statistically, you have a better chance of resulting in a better metal bar with the quality level 3 ore. (and from what ratio i have seen of quality 1-3, a 1:33 ratio is being extremely generous)

 

And this is why: while quality level 6 may give you a much higher potential, you only get 3 shots and they could either fail completely, or be a lack-luster normal success. Now the 900 pieces give you 100 chances to get that perfect roll. Now the max you could get would be less then half but, not only could you get that perfect roll, you can make this in to a blue print.

 

But the worth of the blue print depends on the roll AND how much you have left over in raw materials when its created. If you use up all the quality level 6 stuff to try and get a single good roll, its a wasted effort. 

 

So which brings me to this: statistically, lower quality ore is worth more, only the top 1% of people will even bother trying to grind out failures to try and get a max percentage legendary item. And then its still 40-50%~ better in stats. So instead of 2% crit, you would have 3% crit, etc. Of course max and min weapon modifier would be the exception to this, overall the advantage you would get would not offset the time and effort....but there are those people....

 

Also of course, that legendary gear is gone before ya know it!

 

 

....Im not actually sure what side of this debate this helps.

Edited by Vectious

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Presuming botting occurs in EKs, is employed to harvest and refine mass quantities of trash resources into legendary, Crowfall's economy would see more high tier resources enter into the market at a lowered price.

 

As I put forward metallurgy could turn approximately 90'000 trash ore into 1 legendary; 30'000 common ore; 6'000 uncommon; 600 rare; 30 epic.

But still, a solution that should help - what if trash and common resources cannot be refined, only uncommon and higher? This would remove the ability to refine EK farmed resources while still allowing resources to be refined to the benefit of honest harvesters who invest in the skill and crafters who want to make up shortfalls on the fly.

 

Citation needed on this refining process.

 

I don't think there is any process mentioned that would allow for basic resource quality upgrading.  That would totally devalue the whole reason for people entering the dregs to "get the best resources", if there was a way to grind even EK basic resources into the best.  The only process that does anything close to that is experimentation, and that's working within the resources natural limitations, not improving those basic limitations.

 

Where did you read that quality could be upgraded?

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Citation needed on this refining process.

 

I don't think there is any process mentioned that would allow for basic resource quality upgrading.  That would totally devalue the whole reason for people entering the dregs to "get the best resources", if there was a way to grind even EK basic resources into the best.  The only process that does anything close to that is experimentation, and that's working within the resources natural limitations, not improving those basic limitations.

 

Where did you read that quality could be upgraded?

 

He is suggesting it as a runestone discipline.

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I can't see any advantage to this, other than to allow players to avoid a situation that puts them in danger. . .  even if you implement it, those who venture out into the world will still be at an advantage over you.

 

Because they could train that skill too.

 

I think if you want higher level materials, the way to go would to find a vendor thrall selling them. . . They're going to be set up in EK's so I'm sure that you won't have an issue accessing mats if you need.

 

Whilst I'm not a pvp'er, this just feels like a skill that wouldn't add anything useful to the game. :(


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So if you have 900 pieces of quality level 3 ore and 27 of quality level 6 ore, statistically, you have a better chance of resulting in a better metal bar with the quality level 3 ore. (and from what ratio i have seen of quality 1-3, a 1:33 ratio is being extremely generous)

 

 

 

This assumes that they don't tinker with the odds of a result based on the quality, an assumption I do not think should be made at this point.

 

There are effectively three ways do deal with "chance of success" that could be used. Right now I think they are using the most obvious percentage based mathematical model.  

 

(I may come back to the models, just don't have time to explain them all right now).

 

I am hopping that they will eventually review that and use a better one.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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I can't see any advantage to this, other than to allow players to avoid a situation that puts them in danger. . .  even if you implement it, those who venture out into the world will still be at an advantage over you.

You're right, but I wasn't really aiming at a means to gain advantage  :)shrug  - I just like depth of options and analogous inclusion of appropriate skills and technology.

 

I would be equally happy if Metallurgy was a skill that improved your Blacksmithing skill, had a crit chance of refunding ores used in crafting and granted a 'Metal bar - advanced alloys' recipe. ...actually, I like that more than my original suggestion.

 

 

Edited by Baobhan

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