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mandalore

Ranged Getting Screwed?

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Will yal please call a recess of the middle school debate club?...

 

The thread is getting derailed over nothing, beyond the fact that yal are too involved with each other to get into the subject, there are a lot more factors than system latencies...

 

Firstly, bows aren't guns, even crossbows aren't guns. Even in fantasy games I've seen shooter projectile delivery which doesn't make sense, you can genuinely dodge an arrow in real life, it's only going about as fast as a car.

 

So even if the systems don't have meaningful latency, the projectile delay should be factored. This is particularly significant if we are gonna have arch fire and the kind of implied physics alluded to thus far.

 

Second, allowance for latency would make the game more accessible, so it performs for a larger market. Most developers are intelligent enough to make their game accessible, and this game already exhibits those qualities in the graphics. Let's not pretend to set standards for the developers, they may or may not prioritize accessibility, and unless you have some sort of reference to support your conclusion, it can be left uncertain.

 

Lastly, because their is friendly fire, arch fire will probably be more reliant than straight fire. This is even harder to preform than shooter games because you have to target on a curved line rather than a straight line, possibly even with projectile delay. So there are a lot of possible obstacles and exceptions to acknowledge. Until some confirmation comes through on how it will be implemented, let's stop assuming what it will be based on whatever justification satisfies yourself. Its all possibilities.

 

We can discuss possible solutions to possible systems, but arguing over which system is acceptable has no actual impact on what they will be able and choose to do.

 

Now please, forget who you were talking to, amd talk directly to the subject, or we can just summon a moderator and have the thread closed because yal are too involved with each other to maintain constructive discussion...

 

Ok to stay on topic, ranged are not getting screwed.  Many games use aim based ranged attacks with projectiles and it has worked out just fine for them.  Making up concerns based on hypotheticals when there are plenty of examples of it working out just fine is silly.  It will all be up to whether ArtCraft themselves are capable of doing it like many other companies have, or whether they are not capable of doing it. 

 

It's been done before, it's been done fine, and it's not realistic to make up some far-fetched scenario where it could be problematic and impact a very small group of players.  It really doesn't matter if your cousin's barber plays on 14.4 dialup connection with a pentium 2 processor. 

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If it even aproximates DFO combat, it needs to be "slower", by that I mean it needs a weighted feel and not be this slip n' slide, wearing roller blades, syetem of action combat.

 

Everything can be better with a lil Dark Souls in it.

DFO didn't have a slip and slide feel. The controls were tight and crisp.

 

DF:UW is another story entirely.

 

Just clearing that up.

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Will yal please call a recess of the middle school debate club?...

 

The thread is getting derailed over nothing, beyond the fact that yal are too involved with each other to get into the subject, there are a lot more factors than system latencies...

 

Firstly, bows aren't guns, even crossbows aren't guns. Even in fantasy games I've seen shooter projectile delivery which doesn't make sense, you can genuinely dodge an arrow in real life, it's only going about as fast as a car.

 

So even if the systems don't have meaningful latency, the projectile delay should be factored. This is particularly significant if we are gonna have arch fire and the kind of implied physics alluded to thus far.

 

Second, allowance for latency would make the game more accessible, so it performs for a larger market. Most developers are intelligent enough to make their game accessible, and this game already exhibits those qualities in the graphics. Let's not pretend to set standards for the developers, they may or may not prioritize accessibility, and unless you have some sort of reference to support your conclusion, it can be left uncertain.

 

Lastly, because their is friendly fire, arch fire will probably be more reliant than straight fire. This is even harder to preform than shooter games because you have to target on a curved line rather than a straight line, possibly even with projectile delay. So there are a lot of possible obstacles and exceptions to acknowledge. Until some confirmation comes through on how it will be implemented, let's stop assuming what it will be based on whatever justification satisfies yourself. Its all possibilities.

 

We can discuss possible solutions to possible systems, but arguing over which system is acceptable has no actual impact on what they will be able and choose to do.

 

Now please, forget who you were talking to, and talk directly to the subject, or we can just summon a moderator and have the thread closed because yal are too involved with each other to maintain constructive discussion...

Dunno if this is what you're talking about... The middle of your post confuses me a bit. Wasn't sure if you were advocating for flight time and arrow drop or pointing out that it would be a problem.

 

Regardless, both worked in DFO. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aYAnoN9RLI

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OMG, please, ungouge my eyes!

 

I'm just going to copy this info from another threat since it's more significant to this Thread.

 

Ranged attacks can still miss even with target assistance, it's assistance, not a heat seeking missile... unless it is  :P

 

Had to look for an example, as AC has changed too much for me to know what's going on in the newer ones.

 

Since it probably doesn't make much sense to those who haven't played, the shots only track targets in the red box, and can still miss if the target is evading really well, or if the weapon type is really difficult to use. It also only tracks targets that are close enough, long ranged targeting solutions get narrower and narrower, and there are some weapons which are free aimed but usually extremely potent.

http://youtu.be/DZwPa5C_LKM

 

hqdefault.jpg

 

Here you can see the target profile changing, which would apply properly to different kinds of shots based on draw and power, and distance.

http://youtu.be/DZwPa5C_LKM?t=1m10s

 

armcore9rev2.JPG

 

The problem with attempting to use FPS mechanics in a melee action game is the projectiles have to go so fast, they can't be seen or dodged, they pretty much have to fire in a straight line like a bullet, instead of various firing archs, and foes can't really dodge your attacks, because the shooter is freely aiming, you can try to predict where the attack will go, but even with a delay, unless the shooter gets locked into a shot direction right before his fire, there is no telegraph, a great shooter player can out track a dodge skill, I've been playing shooters long enough to see people 180 and head shot with one bullet, there is no room for actual dodging... Either the Shooter or the target is going to be frustrated if there is or isn't a telegraph on a free aimed attack.

 

The worst part of this, is crosshair shooting would require that players be able to skate around on the battlefield to avoid it, which permeates how everything else in the game is handled... Since they made it apparent that telegraphs are going to be in the game, it basically means that a free aim shooter could just take free shots at opponents every time they take an action... For a good shooter, that's free hits every time.

 

With a target assist system, operating slower moving projectiles at greater distances with hit prediction would be a reality, and the projectiles would be visible and capable of being reacted to. It's almost essential that something accessible be adopted to ensure the health of the rest of the gameplay.

 
Edited by BahamutKaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Bunny hopping in full plate, shooting bows under water, moving while shooting, missing about 95% of your shots.  

 

Looks like tons of fun!  /s

 

I hope Crowfall stays very far away from the combat shown in that video.

 

A wild, indigenous bad spotted in its natural environment.

 

Nothing to see here, move along.

 

Next.

Edited by bmurph101

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Wildstar failed because they catered too much to hardcore raiders and also because of the subscription.

 

I'm curious to see what Crowfall does for combat, but if it goes the Wildstar route I'd be happy, they have to find a medium between hardcore (DF) and casual (WoW) and Wildstar did a good job at making a combat system that bridges those and has a high skill gap. 

 

I just pray the Devs look at all the MMO's that launched these past few years as subscription based games and have gone B2P or F2P, subscription based games are dead, B2P is the way of the future.

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I would be happy with something similar to the Dark Souls system or even Tera.

Darkfall reminds me of Tes games which imo have to slow and boring  combat

 

Hi by the way.... 

 

Hi. Good first post, and I agree.  DF melee to me felt like running around with everyone using knives in CS.  Just spamming left-click and sprinting around at ridiculous speeds.


"Food for the crows..."    Nobuo Xa'el

cdinUTh.png

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I want to go back about the weapon's damages. I think as someone said (i don't remember the page where i see it -- sorry" --) but we could have less hp than we think, so ranged character could outclass everyone with a nice headshot !  

I hope ranged weapons will not last forever. For example, a bow without arrows is useless^^.

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Without a target system how will ranged attacks / spells work?  Will they all be manually aimed?  How would you buff the right ally?

 

 

Just wondering since I didn't see it brought up and I'd rather shoot myself than ask a question in the spam of the news page.

In terms of buffing an ally or healing, I am guessing it will be similar to this....

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrLoasFX-0w

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DFO combat was awful.  I don't see why people need to deviate from the standard aim/strafe concept of every successful FPS game ever made.  Why take away from the intuitiveness.

 

DFO and DF:UW was anything but awesome.  The latter was filled with tons of unpleasant person additions like wobble.

 

I'll take a standard quake series type movement or i'll probably just lose interest because of how awkward it feels.  Most people/customers don't care to adapt at systems that force non natural(read: like most other games) movement.

 

A system I would prefer would be a third person movement system like WoW, with the ability to aim via cross hair or ground/object mapped icon when the ground is closer than the max range of the action.

 

edit:  I really enjoy the Dragon Nest movement/aim system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W5BgIgcBXg#t=107

 

Makes for a pretty fluid engagement in terms of mobility and moving.

Edited by facerip

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Firstly, bows aren't guns, even crossbows aren't guns. Even in fantasy games I've seen shooter projectile delivery which doesn't make sense, you can genuinely dodge an arrow in real life, it's only going about as fast as a car.

 

 

I am sorry, but after seeing this quoted multiple times, I just had to jump in.

 

English longbow can reach speeds of 200fps.. thats about 126mph.  A compound bow can top 350fps or, over 200mph.  A really professional fastball only reaches 96mph and look how many people get hit with them. And a ball is a LOT easier to see.

 

I would like to see you dodge an arrow from a compound bow, if you can even see it.

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I am sorry, but after seeing this quoted multiple times, I just had to jump in.

 

English longbow can reach speeds of 200fps.. thats about 126mph.  A compound bow can top 350fps or, over 200mph.  A really professional fastball only reaches 96mph and look how many people get hit with them. And a ball is a LOT easier to see.

 

I would like to see you dodge an arrow from a compound bow, if you can even see it.

I think you missed one very big thing though, this is a video game. 

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I am sorry, but after seeing this quoted multiple times, I just had to jump in.

 

English longbow can reach speeds of 200fps.. thats about 126mph.  A compound bow can top 350fps or, over 200mph.  A really professional fastball only reaches 96mph and look how many people get hit with them. And a ball is a LOT easier to see.

 

I would like to see you dodge an arrow from a compound bow, if you can even see it.

 

I'm talking about the speed of an arrow being about as fast as a car... gee, thanks for adding verification for exactly that, if you can see the bow user than it's really easy to see it coming, and if he's drawing a real war bow, he's not going to be able to move or change direction quickly, as if you would have a hard time if you have an easily utilized shield.

 

As I said elsewhere, the only hard part about dodging an arrow is visibility and saturation.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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FPS/Skyrim is the only way to go when they mentioned action combat - it require 'player' skills to hit something also including moving targets.

And the same with blocking it should be instant player reaction in melee combat, and not a passive skill. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mhPajkvofg

Edited by Mythx

MQfHl7c.png

Crowfall Game Client: https://www.crowfall.com/en/client/

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