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ZYBAK

Crowfall In-Depth Skill Tree Overview. INSANE CUSTOMIZATION + Theorycrafting!

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Hey guys, put together an overview of how the skill tree in Crowfall works + included some theorycrafting on what I'm thinking about in terms of skill progression paths. I really like the skill system for this game because it's going to lead to radically different characters and interdependence between players that we haven't seen in MMOs in a long time.

 

Video Link: https://youtu.be/EaQeXHDvMCI

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yes....one of the number one comments I saw after Lazy_Peon farted out a video after only two hours completely newbie play without asking for any direction or questions on anything and stated "there are no levels" without adequatly explaining what there actually is in Crowfall progression system
 
oh that and "gender locking" which is also completely mis informed people on (and the payment model stance) and people thinking campaign worlds were MOBA games....ZZZZZZ
 
P.S. added the following comment to your video for future drooling or discussion:
 

This is also just the tip of the iceberg for customisation.

For example: each archtype will have an option of ~3 "Promotion" sub classes to alter your playstyle, stats and new powers

e.g. A druid can choose between Witch, Archdruid and Earthkeeper

Each vessel/body can have up to ~3 "Discipline runestone" *general* subclasses from a choice of ~50 combat, ~50 exploration, ~50 crafting.

These will grant unique recipies, powers, stat bonuses or ability to use items.

You can also modify the effects of your powers using the "Enchantment" crafting

e.g. this power now has a stun or lifesteal or gives a temporary movement speed boost etc

You also get to choose "Advantages and Disadvantages" when first possessing a vessel/body

e.g. Demonic blood versus Dim Witted (more penalties picked allows more bonuses - up to limits)

(with vessel bodies themselves being crafted with stats, quality level and even "skill limits" for low quality ones)

 

The gear and experimental crafting systems gives an insane list of choices and complete freedom with regards what type of armor you want

(e.g. all classes can wear leather, scale and plate with their own pros and cons for each)

and 100% player crafted items allow you to specialise the stats to fit your build

etc etc many more!

Edited by Tinnis

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Good video. 

 

Question though - with so MANY choices in the general tree do you really think being able to train 1 of each general skill (1 combat, 1 crafting, 1 exploration) would really limit the reliance on other players?

 

In exploration for example, just in harvesting you have 4 different paths (wood, ore, stone, hide) to choose from.

 

In crafting there's like 8 different crafting trees. To craft a sword you're going to need blacksmith materials (metal) as well as either wood or hide (to make the weapon grip). To craft armor you need both metal and hide. Basically everything you make requires things from different disciplines. 

 

In combat there's a choice to be made between combat skills, weapon skills, armor skills and siege weaponry. 

 

Seems like there's SOOO many paths to go already that giving VIP's the ability to train 3 general and 3 archetype still wouldn't prevent people from needing each other. 

 

It would also seem in the long run that more people would buy VIP if it gave 3 general and 3 archetype. More VIP subscriptions = more money for ACE = more ongoing development to improve the game. Otherwise, yes, there's going to be LOTS of alt accounts that aren't VIP enabled and are one time $50 purchases. 

Edited by blazzen

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Good video. 

 

Question though - with so MANY choices in the general tree do you really think being able to train 1 of each general skill (1 combat, 1 crafting, 1 exploration) would really limit the reliance on other players?

 

In exploration for example, just in harvesting you have 4 different paths (wood, ore, stone, hide) to choose from.

 

In crafting there's like 8 different crafting trees. To craft a sword you're going to need blacksmith materials (metal) as well as either wood or hide (to make the weapon grip). To craft armor you need both metal and hide. Basically everything you make requires things from different disciplines. 

 

In combat there's a choice to be made between combat skills, weapon skills, armor skills and siege weaponry. 

 

Seems like there's SOOO many paths to go already that giving VIP's the ability to train 3 general and 3 archetype still wouldn't prevent people from needing each other. 

 

It would also seem in the long run that more people would buy VIP if it gave 3 general and 3 archetype. More VIP subscriptions = more money for ACE = more ongoing development to improve the game. Otherwise, yes, there's going to be LOTS of alt accounts that aren't VIP enabled and are one time $50 purchases. 

 

I agree that VIP is not really tempting right now but increasing the training limit of the general skills would make VIP a must have. It would make people who arent using it inferior. Without even mentioning the "Amazing Fighter-Crafter-Gatherer" dillema.

 

I would love to do 3 things. I am really looking forward to see how runes work or how animal husbandry might be implemented but i have made the choice of being a Animal gatherer/explorer... Okay i will probably waste a few weeks checking that stuff out...

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The point of VIP was to increase choice or options but not overall "power" in a given area. That's why you can't train all 3 points in the same archetype but can only allocate 1 point into each of 3 archetypes if you're VIP.

 

By the same token, this could apply to general skills. As long as you can only train 1 combat, 1 crafting and 1 exploration, you don't gain any additional "power" in any one given area over someone who isn't a VIP.

 

A non-VIP who trained in general combat and myrmidon fighting a VIP who trained in general combat, general crafting, and general harvesting plus has training in Myrmidon, Confessor, and Ranger who would be on equal footing because in this fight the only training that matters is the training in general combat and myrmidon.

 

Does it make VIP a lot more appealing? Hell yes it does. And it SHOULD. ACE making money is better for the game and thus better for its players.

 

The only exception to this is the vessel tree in exploration. This would have to be moved and/or reconfigured to not allow VIP's to gain additional power over others. 

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I'm having a hard time reconciling the depth of the skill tree with having multiple accounts.

 

This type of game is going to be next to near impossible to balance with its depth. A continuum of better and worse specializations to take in the tree will emerge. With the massive investment you have to put in to a given skill with your only resource (time), we're going to have some serious disparity in utility among accounts. We're dealing with a mix of the choice paradox and decision theory. I don't want to wake up one day and realize my time investment into the skills I've chosen is completely outclassed by other skill choices. I get that there's an element of making your playstyle reflect your choices, but obscurity arises from the depth of the tree.

 

Take the combat spec vs leadership Zybak talked about - that's just one aspect of the tree. He even mentioned the opportunity cost associated with speccing differently. I'm worried that there's going to be a ton of alts, or people constantly tearing down and rebuilding in new trees because they made the 'wrong' initial choice.

 

Then, if we scale this issue to the level of the guild, there's going to exist an optimal number & diversity of members. If you have the wrong makeup, or your guild just isn't big enough, you could be seriously disadvantaged. The natural population of the player-base is going to be heavily skewed toward some specs (I'm guessing combat), and seriously lacking in others. You can fit a logistic model to whatever discrete segment of the population you want. Wherever that population hits critical mass, guilds are going to fill the role in one way or another if the utility of that segment is deemed necessary. Back to the population limit - if these niches can't be recruited, they'll still be filled by people who are likely in the guild and already have at least one account.

 

Serious, consistent, and constant re-balancing (rather, spot cleaning) is going to be necessary to manage an ebb & flow for skill specs to not be relegated to the dregs of utility/completely overwhelm and outclass others. To accommodate the changes, players are going to want multiple accounts to keep above the water that is the current bar for utility, which will be set by the competition between players & guilds.

 

tl;dr: I think that without an adequate player base, too much diversity in specializations will 'force' players into multiple accounts to stay competitive.

Edited by najorin

Killjoy - najorin, officer

An ironically unironic Killjoy

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tl;dr: I think that without an adequate player base, too much diversity in specializations will 'force' players into multiple accounts to stay competitive.

 

Adequate player base could also mean a large enough guild too. In the Dregs you aren't going to be able to trust anyone for trading outside of your friends and/or guild. This might make it even harder for smaller guilds to compete without buying a multitude of alternate accounts. To my knowledge there isn't going to be any kind of "trading hub" in the campaign worlds and with terminator import rules you can't bring anything in with you. If you don't have everything covered between you and your guild mates then how do you harvest/craft those items in the Dregs? Bear in mind the game is planned to soft launch with ONLY the Dregs campaign band (plus the EK). The other rulesets with hard coded teams will allow for more trading to happen but will not come until sometime later. 

 

The vast number of specializations again leads me to believe that giving VIP's the ability to train 3 general skills, one in each of the combat, crafting and exploration areas will NOT reduce the reliance on other players to the point which it would be harmful to the community or game balance. 

Edited by blazzen

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Adequate player base could also mean a large enough guild too. In the Dregs you aren't going to be able to trust anyone for trading outside of your friends and/or guild. This might make it even harder for smaller guilds to compete without buying a multitude of alternate accounts. To my knowledge there isn't going to be any kind of "trading hub" in the campaign worlds and with terminator import rules you can't bring anything in with you. If you don't have everything covered between you and your guild mates then how do you harvest/craft those items in the Dregs? Bear in mind the game is planned to soft launch with ONLY the Dregs campaign band (plus the EK). The other rulesets with hard coded teams will allow for more trading to happen but will not come until sometime later. 

 

I have accepted the fact that small guilds will only be viable with multiple accounts and I am already planning out how many accounts I will need. I am willing to do this but I definitely don't think it should be considered normal or expected. It is a lot easier to manage multiple accounts when the skill trees are purely passive, so it could end up being less of a hassle in Crowfall than in other games. I do think you will see a lot of small guilds struggle if there is not a place for them, or a way to manage the hundreds of needed skills that large guilds will take for granted. It is a concern that should be considered. 

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Luckily there's going to be a system where smaller guilds can swear fealty to the bigger ones. I agree that this game favors bigger guilds or groups of guilds (for many reasons other than just skills).

 

Even the most powerful guilds are going to want to have some alliances.

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VIP Vs Alt Accounts

 

(NOTE : Fictional prices for easy of addition... minor adjustments for the real prices)

 

Price of VIP = 10 bucks

Price of account = 50 bucks

 

So basically if you dish out 150 and get 3 accounts you will have 3 characters who have 3 skill sets, which are indeed different. With Free to Play... after 10 months youll be home free, cause after that the extra amount u have to pay for the VIP training is not comming back.


Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

Gathering of Ranger videos

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I wonder how much "priority access to all game servers" will be worth.

 

If you end up in a queue when switching accounts it may be preferable to have a VIP account with multiple trained archetypes.

 

It makes me wonder what all they'll do to make VIP more enticing. We already know VIP is going to get new Archetypes early as well.

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I have accepted the fact that small guilds will only be viable with multiple accounts and I am already planning out how many accounts I will need. I am willing to do this but I definitely don't think it should be considered normal or expected. It is a lot easier to manage multiple accounts when the skill trees are purely passive, so it could end up being less of a hassle in Crowfall than in other games. I do think you will see a lot of small guilds struggle if there is not a place for them, or a way to manage the hundreds of needed skills that large guilds will take for granted. It is a concern that should be considered. 

 

Small guilds will band together and make alliances to fill those specialty niches.


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