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Soulreaver

Character Diversity through skills.

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Greetings Fellow Crows...

​I'm posting cause I hope someone can help me clear up something...
​In Crowfall we have a VERY diverse and advanced Character system.  With the training of a skill you passively gain points and so and so on.....
​- Note this isn't about SKILL diversity!  It's about Character Diversity.
 
Fig 1:
2lwwx1l.png
 

​My question lies in : Character diversity.

​If advancing as a character from your Tier 1 to the end Tier, or in other words moving from A to B (see Fig 1).
- Where is the diversity in characters since B requires u to get every SINGLE character ability in the tree (except the armor ones in the Confessors example.  
- If u then compare the amount of Tiers in need of unlocking before u can get to the Advanced class - U will see a great deal of difference in when one player will be able to open his advanced classes and when a difference player on a different class will be able to open his/her advanced class.
 
Example :

Skill leveling advancements table :
Tier 1 : 3 days
Tier 2 : 6 days
​Tier 3 : 9 days
Tier 4 : 12 days
and so on.

​To if u compare the days needed to unlock the Advanced class :
 
Ranger : 336 Days to unlock the full tree and achieving 100 in Ranger Mastery
Duelist : 357 Days...
Legionaire : 288 Days .....
Myrmidon : 312 Days...
Knight : 306 days....
Champion : 321 Days....
Confessor : 276 Days...

(I added all the tiers and multiplied that by 3 to get the final number of days)
 
- Finally and this is where my question arrives...
​Since one has to take ALL the prerequesits of a tree, where is the diversity in characters.  After X amount of time everyone are just class wise going to be the same, whilst skill wise yes there will be a difference.
 
 
Final Comment :
​A difference of 12 to 81 days is substacial and I hope that skill trees are a huge placeholder.  It would be really nice to what is placeholders and what is nearing completion - ATM it feels like everyone is commenting on everything and no one knows what really needs commenting on - myself included!
Edited by Soulreaver

Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

Gathering of Ranger videos

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It is not a requirement that you train 100% of all skills to unlock the last skill .

 

In order to move on to the child/promotion trees you only need 25% of the total tree trained. The diversity comes from the path you take to unlock the next batch of skills. Eventually (assuming no new skills introduced) all characters will become the same (given a massive amount of time).

 

 

EDIT: To clarify. My two statements are mutually exclusive.

(1)You can take the shortest path from A to B, it is not required to train all skill that connect to B in order to train it.

(2)You only need 25% of the entire tree trained before you move on to a promotion/child tree. There is no requirement that you need to train B before you can train the promotion/child tree.

Edited by Verot

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Listen to the interview with Blair, you need 25% of a tree complete in order to move on to the child/promotion tree. Yes, given enough time and no new skills being added, everyone will be the same. This is what happens when you don't have hard skill caps and can train everything given enough time.

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It is not a requirement that you train 100% of all skills to unlock the last skill .

 

....you only need 25% of the total tree trained.....

 

Verot : Thank you...

 

---- ----

​Using that information the class progression timewise would look like this :

Duelist : 107 Days to unlock the full tree and achieving 100 in Duelist Mastery

Ranger : 102 Days....

Champion : 98 Days....

Myrmidon : 96 Days...

Knight : 94 Days....

Legionaire : 90 Days .....

Confessor : 87 Days...

 

 

  still makes for nearly three weeks difference in training time.  Hmm, ok I can live with that.

 

​---- ----

To sum up though the difference in progress is visible.  And yet again I'm pondering.....

To progress past the second last Tier, with 25% completed, you need ALL the previous tiers in that thread to even reach it, completed.  Choosing one route rather than another yet again yields a huge difference time wise, is this intentional or just coincidental? 

 

The skill trees are a still a source of confusion with the missing tooltips, and wording in said tooltips which leaves a large room for interpretation.   ATM we’re making choices upon assumptions.  Which will never be satisfying for when you end up with something which wasn’t your intention – the frustration will be channeled at the designers, and not at oneself.

 

 

​Ps - Thanks Coolwaters

Edited by Soulreaver

Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

Gathering of Ranger videos

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like coolwaters, i'm thinking all shadowbane players are hoping for a tree with a lot more choices, masteries, skills and powers.

A system that only provides base stats is bland and boring. Tie that in with alot of the paths are extremely specialized( IE ranged vs melee then ranged arcane vs archery ranged) it provides a very lack luster, thin layer of an attempt at customization.

 

We have to remember, the skill trees is the only persistent customization in the game (besides EK) it needs to be robust and have alot of depth.

 

This ultimately means the differences between one account and another. Getting a few base stats differently then other people is not impactful .

 

There needs to be at LEAST some unlocks that you slot in to that also prevent you from choosing other unlocks. Choices. That. Matter.

Edited by Vectious

CfWBSig.png

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We have to remember, the skill trees is the only persistent customization in the game (besides EK) it needs to be robust and have alot of depth.

 

Skill trees are the only permanent customization. It may be that within the context of a campaign the vessels and disciplines and whatnot feel relatively persistent.

Edited by Jah

IhhQKY6.gif

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Skill trees are the only permanent customization. It may be that within the context of a campaign the vessels and disciplines and whatnot feel relatively persistent.

Good point.


CfWBSig.png

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A system that only provides base stats is bland and boring. Tie that in with alot of the paths are extremely specialized( IE ranged vs melee then ranged arcane vs archery ranged) it provides a very lack luster, thin layer of an attempt at customization.

 

We have to remember, the skill trees is the only persistent customization in the game (besides EK) it needs to be robust and have alot of depth.

 

This ultimately means the differences between one account and another. Getting a few base stats differently then other people is not impactful .

 

There needs to be at LEAST some unlocks that you slot in to that also prevent you from choosing other unlocks. Choices. That. Matter.

I like your post Vectious; and it makes me feel awful.

 

Awful in the sense that Todd's other creative work - Shadowbane allowed us to manipulate base stats so we could tweak our characters; and with CF we don't even have a glimmer of being able to tweak our base character at all.  Everything is tweaked at the skill level, or in relationship to skills.  If we can't change our base stats, then they should just hide them; don't even let us care what our str vs dex is, or other base stats.

 

The game is coming along nicely, combat is feeling more fluid, crafting is starting to take form.  But character customization of the stats is far from something I would want see on live.


lUvvzPy.png

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  If we can't change our base stats, then they should just hide them; don't even let us care what our str vs dex is, or other base stats.

 

The game is coming along nicely, combat is feeling more fluid, crafting is starting to take form.  But character customization of the stats is far from something I would want see on live.

Crafted bodies from the necromancy tree, runes, etc, will all effect stats.

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Is the advantage and disadvantage system the rune system or are they two different things?  I'm fairly sure they described changing the base stats of the character with those.  I think we also had some attribute points to spend when making the character/vessel, been a while though so I could be wrong on that.

Edited by vaevictus333

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I personally would like to see each direction of the tree offer a different keystone unlock along its path. Ill use ranger for example i spose here

There 3 to 4 different paths for rangers to hit the end of there tree depending on what tier of the tree it split.

-Rangers basic weapon is a recurve bow however going down a certain line may unlock the ability to use a long bow for example which offers longer range.
-Another path may offer a more defensive armor type that they can now use if they go that way for example Scale armor, if they want to go down a more defensive route
- Another path may unlock say a passive skill that allows them to occasionaly double hit with a weapon or somthing along those lines.


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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 The skill tree is meant to be broad and generic.  True skill diversity and customization is going to happen at the vessel/runes level.  The interaction between skill trees and vessels is important for diversity, and vessels aren't in yet, so we don't have a very good picture of the final outcome.

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Sorry little off topic, but is necromancy confirmed by the devs?

I would say so its already in the crafting tree, just not unlocked yet but you are able to see it and highlight it.

 

Tool tip is

 

Necromancy

Skills that teach and enhance the crafting of corpses

 

And in exploration you also have the Vessel tree that you are able to see currently which works off necromancy since necromancy is just the crafting skill to make vessels.

Edited by veeshan

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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I would say so its already in the crafting tree, just not unlocked yet but you are able to see it and highlight it.

 

Tool tip is

 

Necromancy

Skills that teach and enhance the crafting of corpses

 

And in exploration you also have the Vessel tree that you are able to see currently which works off necromancy since necromancy is just the crafting skill to make vessels.

Thx, im not much of a crafter so honestly havnt looked past making basic weapons an armor and some runes

Edited by krevra

krevra.png

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I like your post Vectious; and it makes me feel awful.

 

Awful in the sense that Todd's other creative work - Shadowbane allowed us to manipulate base stats so we could tweak our characters; and with CF we don't even have a glimmer of being able to tweak our base character at all.  Everything is tweaked at the skill level, or in relationship to skills.  If we can't change our base stats, then they should just hide them; don't even let us care what our str vs dex is, or other base stats.

 

The game is coming along nicely, combat is feeling more fluid, crafting is starting to take form.  But character customization of the stats is far from something I would want see on live.

of course we'll b able to tweak stats. it's just not in yet. if u remember one of the earlier articles of cf was the elf with the stats and starting runes screenshot.


94d3694d-21cd-461f-afe1-69b22f882477.jpg

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of course we'll b able to tweak stats. it's just not in yet. if u remember one of the earlier articles of cf was the elf with the stats and starting runes screenshot.

 

That was all pre-vessel system. All of the stats will be tied to the vessels which are lootable/breakable. The question is if the vessel crafting system will allow for the players to set stats which are not typical for a given archetype, for example, intentionally maxing dexterity on a myrmidon. 

 

The previously discussed advantage/disadvantage system will also have to be incorporated into vessel/runes as well because we no longer create a character in the sense that we are used to doing in a typical MMO.

Edited by Verot

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Consider one thing when it comes to crafting... have they not proven that the system they have implemented gives you an incredible amount of control over what stats a final production item might have? You can control all of the materials, knowing full well what they mean for final product.

 

Why would vessels all of sudden be any different?

 

The answer is of course you can customize vessels to the same degree as anything in this crafting system. Its silly to assume that's NOT the case.

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