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Khoth

My issue with the new combat in Big World

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This GIF I've made describes my issue with the current combat style and while it was truncated before I did the ability casts you can cast and spin. This spin strafing will become the most powerful strategy you are harder to hit from any ranged class and twisting vortexes of melee characters will make for a stale, boring, and simplistic combat system. This combat is the same as the terrible combat used in almost every past MMO that people want to get away from the WoW, Blade and Soul, and Guild Wars 2. Except here it is worse as with no tab targeting there is much less chance for ranged characters to do anything in one of these melee tornadoes and if your the center its harder to get a lead on the spinning character. This type of combat has none of the tactics originally desired nor a seance of meaningful action. Now with some of the knockdowns you can momentarily interrupt this but would just adjust who is on the inside and out side of the spin. If Crowfall is going to innovate us out of this MMO hole we are stuck in we can not just repeat the mistakes that were done in the past. 

 

P.S. This is only my opinion on the current pre-alpha build and may not be relevant as changes are made. Please add your own opinions to this discussion so we can find a combat style that can fit as many of us as possible.


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What?

 

You dislike circles, then dont. Play a confessor, learn to R click. backpedal, get in front of them etc.

 

ps. lots of people LOVE blade and soul combat as well as GW2. And while WoW is old and unimaginative more people like it than hate the combat, not to mention it is an entirely different type of system... so again

 

what?


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This GIF I've made describes my issue with the current combat style and while it was truncated before I did the ability casts you can cast and spin. This spin strafing will become the most powerful strategy you are harder to hit from any ranged class and twisting vortexes of melee characters will make for a stale, boring, and simplistic combat system. This combat is the same as the terrible combat used in almost every past MMO that people want to get away from the WoW, Blade and Soul, and Guild Wars 2. Except here it is worse as with no tab targeting there is much less chance for ranged characters to do anything in one of these melee tornadoes and if your the center its harder to get a lead on the spinning character. This type of combat has none of the tactics originally desired nor a seance of meaningful action. Now with some of the knockdowns you can momentarily interrupt this but would just adjust who is on the inside and out side of the spin. If Crowfall is going to innovate us out of this MMO hole we are stuck in we can not just repeat the mistakes that were done in the past. 

 

P.S. This is only my opinion on the current pre-alpha build and may not be relevant as changes are made. Please add your own opinions to this discussion so we can find a combat style that can fit as many of us as possible.

 

Well, trust me when I say it's an actual improvement over the jerky rockem sockem robot bro-off BS we had before.

 

I'm not seeing the problem here, and you're honestly the first person who I've seen that actually hasn't praised the changes. Hell even people that were adamantly against the changes have changed their tune.

 

Here's the hard truth.

 

Freedom of movement is good for combat.

 

P.S. btw, was this gif sped up? I don't remember the knight moving that fast.

Edited by helix

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Well, trust me when I say it's an actual improvement over the jerky rockem sockem robot bro-off BS we had before.

 

I'm not seeing the problem here, and you're honestly the first person who I've seen that actually hasn't praised the changes. Hell even people that were adamantly against the changes have changed their tune.

 

Here's the hard truth.

 

Freedom of movement is good for combat.

 

P.S. btw, was this gif sped up? I don't remember the knight moving that fast.

It might have been speed up a bit I just through it into a converter real quick.

 

As for the changes while anything would be better than what we had before this is not the direction I was hoping for. Honestly just rooting a person or even slowing them down massively while they use a skill would be enough to fix most of my issues with combat. It would disincentivise the whole issue with spinning as a prime tactic. My issue is with the amount of freedom leading to oversimplification of combat and a reliance on a small few prime tactics such as circle strafing.

I'd recommend fighting something other than a tree. :P

I did fight a couple people with this and won to check it first. I just used the tree for the recording.


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It might have been speed up a bit I just through it into a converter real quick.

 

As for the changes while anything would be better than what we had before this is not the direction I was hoping for. Honestly just rooting a person or even slowing them down massively while they use a skill would be enough to fix most of my issues with combat. It would disincentivise the whole issue with spinning as a prime tactic. My issue is with the amount of freedom leading to oversimplification of combat and a reliance on a small few prime tactics such as circle strafing.

I did fight a couple people with this and won to check it first. I just used the tree for the recording.

 

Strafing is a natural movement, unless in a fight you would simply stand still and let some one hit you over the head. Action combat means doing actions, like moving and then trying to aim and target that person with your reticule.

 

You dont have to move in a circle, stand still, move in front and block them, backpedal, R click. etc and saying "freedom leading to oversimplification" doesnt make sense. People now actually have to think and move, counter move, and position all a hundred times a second while using skills, timing interrupts, stuns, burst windows etc.

 

Id love to have a real discussion about this but you dont make any meaningful points besides "i dont like circles"

 


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Strafing is a natural movement, unless in a fight you would simply stand still and let some one hit you over the head. Action combat means doing actions, like moving and then trying to aim and target that person with your reticule.

 

You dont have to move in a circle, stand still, move in front and block them, backpedal, R click. etc and saying "freedom leading to oversimplification" doesnt make sense. People now actually have to think and move, counter move, and position all a hundred times a second while using skills, timing interrupts, stuns, burst windows etc.

 

Id love to have a real discussion about this but you dont make any meaningful points besides "i dont like circles"

 

Lets use Dark Souls as an example. In that game you strafe and run in circles yes but it is not running in circles swinging like an angry monkey. This is were the difference lies you are disincentivised in Dark Souls from doing that blocking and dodging are more important than just swinging. In the current combat system you are given no reason to not just attack wildly there is no meaningful dodging or blocking. As to your example with the confessor that should never happen in the full game 1 on 1 fighting will be quite rare so I'm looking at these fights as if they were happening in a 5 on 5 minimum. In those fights confessors should never be in the fray enough to worry about that unless their cc tanks are dead.

 

As far as the freedom and oversimplification many complex games use tiny mini stops in movement to increase tactics such as MOBAs and even Overwatch has some characters that stop and slow down to add tactics to their combat. So E-sports where its always about skill use a type of movement which interrupts freedom.

 

Finally I'd like to think I'm giving enough examples to support my arguments beyond "i dont like circles".


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Ranger are already gimped in range combat since the projectile speed is so slow and hit boxes of people and animals are so small, if arrows were faster and hit boxes worked properly then this shouldnt be a problem with range classes.


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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Atm it is very difficult to hit anything on ranged classes on the ranger which i played more then other ranged, it was hard to land alot of attacks, same with druid, tiny projectiles tiny hitboxes slow projectiles. I dont think the new combat is the issue here tho, i think its those i just outlined


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The issue with "too much" freedom of movement in combat is that it loses its tactical significance. In Black Desert movement and attacks/abilities are married so the player with skill enough to maintain superior positioning has a major leg up. On opposite ends of this spectrum are, "no moving while attack animations play so position is win or die," and "never stop moving b/c the animations play anyway." I think OPs point is that while there is some semblance of this marriage in the current iteration, it has swung too far to the other side.

Edited by baerin

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Atm it is very difficult to hit anything on ranged classes on the ranger which i played more then other ranged, it was hard to land alot of attacks, same with druid, tiny projectiles tiny hitboxes slow projectiles. I dont think the new combat is the issue here tho, i think its those i just outlined

I literaly gotta aim half a screen ahead of where there running to hit them lol, Also arrows move slower than a knight using charge which i find funny :P

Well hopefully they tweak things at some point till then its gonna be a melee based game with confessors since they have decent projectiles it seems.

 

Another thing i find with rangers is there no reason to do anything else but left click in there range tray since the skills all do less dmg or arnt practical to use, for example archers stake cast time is way to long and benefit not high enough to warrant using it rather situational only realy useful i would say in seige type event when ur on a wall firing down, however that being said standing still like that is just asking to be chained off the wall via Knight or even Mino net.


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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Lets use Dark Souls as an example. In that game you strafe and run in circles yes but it is not running in circles swinging like an angry monkey. This is were the difference lies you are disincentivised in Dark Souls from doing that blocking and dodging are more important than just swinging. In the current combat system you are given no reason to not just attack wildly there is no meaningful dodging or blocking. As to your example with the confessor that should never happen in the full game 1 on 1 fighting will be quite rare so I'm looking at these fights as if they were happening in a 5 on 5 minimum. In those fights confessors should never be in the fray enough to worry about that unless their cc tanks are dead.

 

As far as the freedom and oversimplification many complex games use tiny mini stops in movement to increase tactics such as MOBAs and even Overwatch has some characters that stop and slow down to add tactics to their combat. So E-sports where its always about skill use a type of movement which interrupts freedom.

 

Finally I'd like to think I'm giving enough examples to support my arguments beyond "i dont like circles".

I believe that if devs would implement a more souls like combat system (blocking, parrying, dodging, backstabing, roll spam :P ) while also enlarging hitboxes and speeding up projectiles would fix most of the problems we have with combat right now. There is 'press e to retaliate' but i don't think its enough. 2-3 cows can easilly keep the player stunlocked for eternity, so some kind of break out mechanic would be nice.


\[T]/ PRAISE THE SUN! \[T]/

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I believe that if devs would implement a more souls like combat system (blocking, parrying, dodging, backstabing, roll spam :P ) while also enlarging hitboxes and speeding up projectiles would fix most of the problems we have with combat right now. There is 'press e to retaliate' but i don't think its enough. 2-3 cows can easilly keep the player stunlocked for eternity, so some kind of break out mechanic would be nice.

I agree the current breakstun of pressing E doesnt mean anything a coordinated group will just stunlock spam you for at least 75 percent of your hp before you can even really react. I still think you should gain hard CC immunity for a period of time after you press it

Edited by krevra

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While I have not played the game at all I was very disappointed when I saw what they did to the combat in the Open World update. The completely free movement of character while casting skills results in circle strafing and spamming skills without any tactical thought. It is the same problem I have with the combat in Wildstar, TESO, Revelation Online - thoughtless floaty combat that does not feel like an action game at all. Think of the most popular action games - Dark Souls, Devil May Cry, all of Platinum Games's creations, hell even The Witcher 3 - all of them lock you into an action when you choose to do it. As a result you have a clear offense and defense and you can counter mobs and other players by looking at what they are doing and reacting properly. If there is no commitment to an action then there is no proper reaction to that action and the whole point of the action combat is missing. Combat should not be static or slow but there should be dedication to an action when you choose to do it.

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Having played some of the game I can certainly say that I currently think that combat is a little bit to floaty at the moment and I hope things can be tightened up for later Patches and release.

 

Currently the main gripe I have with the combat is that it does not feel like it has weight and this is a difficult problem to solve.

 

With regards to stuns and crowd control I would much rather just see the times on the CC scaled back slightly and give more ways for your allies to help you. E.G. why can't I cut the Minotaur's net off my allies. This would create some interesting interactions. For example one of your group get's netted and you have to decide between cutting him free or leaving him for the wolves. Or for example why can't I grab a hold of my netted friend to prevent him being pulled? This would increase interactivity and the skill ceiling imo.

 

My main problem with CC atm is that it is unilateral. Crowd Control seems to only have one direction with no interesting ways to play around it to the point that crowd control spam has become the foundation of the combat interactions I have participated in. I would like to see them perhaps implement a "Zone of Control" system[and scale back CC duration] where when you are within a certain range of another character you are slowed and suffer damage penalties to attacking people other than those in your zone of control. I feel this would give melee classes a much stronger identity as interference[screening enemy melee from your ranged classes] tackling[getting on top of a ranged class and holding them down for your dps] and positioning. There could even be abilities implemented that extend your zone of control, or reduce an enemies, or allow you to ignore zone of control etc. etc.

 

IDK maybe it wouldn't work but it would certainly make the combat a lot more interesting on a group level at least worth thinking about.

Edited by potatomcwhiskey

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I believe that if devs would implement a more souls like combat system (blocking, parrying, dodging, backstabing, roll spam :P ) while also enlarging hitboxes and speeding up projectiles would fix most of the problems we have with combat right now. There is 'press e to retaliate' but i don't think its enough. 2-3 cows can easilly keep the player stunlocked for eternity, so some kind of break out mechanic would be nice.

 

The server / client has to keep track of all that stuff (blocking, parrying) and when you've got dozens, hundreds, thousands of players interacting together you're going to have issues. These kind of systems work great in single player games, or games that involve smaller numbers of player interactions, but not in big sprawling siege oriented games.

 

What we have now isn't perfect, but it feels significantly better. What they largely need to work on is feedback, I think this will help alleviate the "floaty" feel.

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Yeah thats why things like CC ie stuns, slows snares exist. Action combat is supposed to be about movement and positioning, tactics and counter tactics. The current iteration still has some ways to go but it has improved vastly from the start, IMO.

 

Also not sure who these people are OP mentions that wants to get away from Blade and Soul and GW2 style combat. Most people HERE ie been following the game have been asking for more movement ie more like those games.

Edited by pang

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This GIF I've made describes my issue with the current combat style and while it was truncated before I did the ability casts you can cast and spin. This spin strafing will become the most powerful strategy you are harder to hit from any ranged class and twisting vortexes of melee characters will make for a stale, boring, and simplistic combat system. This combat is the same as the terrible combat used in almost every past MMO that people want to get away from the WoW, Blade and Soul, and Guild Wars 2. Except here it is worse as with no tab targeting there is much less chance for ranged characters to do anything in one of these melee tornadoes and if your the center its harder to get a lead on the spinning character. This type of combat has none of the tactics originally desired nor a seance of meaningful action. Now with some of the knockdowns you can momentarily interrupt this but would just adjust who is on the inside and out side of the spin. If Crowfall is going to innovate us out of this MMO hole we are stuck in we can not just repeat the mistakes that were done in the past. 

 

P.S. This is only my opinion on the current pre-alpha build and may not be relevant as changes are made. Please add your own opinions to this discussion so we can find a combat style that can fit as many of us as possible.

 

Wouldn't the correct answer be to put in a different kind/type of character that's job is to say out of the "twisting vortexes of melee characters"  who's role is to chase, stop and kill the spinning character.  

 

A glass cannon melee (assassin)  that if caught falls quickly, but can CC a single target and force it to engage on different terms.

 

I could think if an ability like garotte that puts the assassin and the target back to back, with the target and assassin held in place for a couple of seconds.

 

Add a rock, don't take away scissors because it always beats paper.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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