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Khoth

My issue with the new combat in Big World

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The association of motion tied to animations with "standing around" is probably the most erroneous and egregiously wrongheaded one in this discussion. If that's what the previous version of Crowfall's combat felt like to you then, like Leiloni stated, ACE's implementation was simply flawed. Most of y'all seem to enjoy this mix of World of Warcraft and Quake, though, so I imagine that's the road we're just going to get dragged down regardless of its merits or flaws.  :rolleyes:

Yep higher skill-ceiling ftw.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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The association of motion tied to animations with "standing around" is probably the most erroneous and egregiously wrongheaded one in this discussion. If that's what the previous version of Crowfall's combat felt like to you then, like Leiloni stated, ACE's implementation was simply flawed. Most of y'all seem to enjoy this mix of World of Warcraft and Quake, though, so I imagine that's the road we're just going to get dragged down regardless of its merits or flaws.  :rolleyes:

 

I do see where you are coming from but I don't want things to go back to how they were. You are correct in saying it was flawed before because it was. It did not feel good, regardless of how it was supposed to feel. In practice it was awful. That doesn't mean it is perfect now but if I had to choose, I would choose your WoW Quake analogy (I am guessing the WoW part is the CC?) over whatever mess we had before. I do think focusing on how CC works should be priority if this free movement system is kept. I know people are going to disagree but Darkfall combat didn't get "tactical" until people were able to use the only area of affect CC the game had (WoF), which helped to control the battlefield somewhat and make people more aware of their movement and how not to get caught up in it. It changed a lot about how the "running around and hitting each other" meta was played, and that was just one spell. Imagine if more of those types of spells existed and people might think twice about running around like idiots.

Edited by Mytherceria

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WoW (purposeless movement) + Quake (reticle targeting) = Crowfall currently

 

 

I was fine with allowing ACE to iterate on their more TERA influenced combat until it was better, but the less patient wanted them to "OMG FIX COMBAT RIGHT NOW" so they ended up going backwards. Oh well, here's hoping they can make coal shine line obsidian.


Hi, I'm moneda.

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WoW (purposeless movement) + Quake (reticle targeting) = Crowfall currently

 

 

I was fine with allowing ACE to iterate on their more TERA influenced combat until it was better, but the less patient wanted them to "OMG FIX COMBAT RIGHT NOW" so they ended up going backwards. Oh well, here's hoping they can make coal shine line obsidian.

 

I agree with the purposeless movement. That needs to be worked on. I don't think what they had before could have been fixed within a reasonable amount of time though, it was that broken. People were right to be alarmed and I thank them for being vocal or it never would have been changed. There just was not enough time left to keep what they had. It would have turned off too many people and there would have been a missed opportunity to draw in the Big World crowd to promote the game. You can see it already from the once negative Youtube comments by random people turning positive. They were right to change it, at least until they come up with something better.

Edited by Mytherceria

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WoW (purposeless movement) + Quake (reticle targeting) = Crowfall currently

 

 

I was fine with allowing ACE to iterate on their more TERA influenced combat until it was better, but the less patient wanted them to "OMG FIX COMBAT RIGHT NOW" so they ended up going backwards. Oh well, here's hoping they can make coal shine line obsidian.

Don't worry, they can add full FF and it will clean up all that twitchy movement that you find so unpleasant.  And I am sorry but if anything ACE took too long to fix their combat, I think your bias is clouding your perspective in this regard, ACE was not impatient in trying to use Tera style combat, they were too patient in trying to make it work. 

 

I agree with the purposeless movement. That needs to be worked on. I don't think what they had before could have been fixed within a reasonable amount of time though, it was that broken. People were right to be alarmed and I thank them for being vocal or it never would have been changed. There just was not enough time left to keep what they had. It would have turned off too many people and there would have been a missed opportunity to draw in the Big World crowd to promote the game. You can see it already from the once negative Youtube comments by random people turning positive. They were right to change it, at least until they come up with something better.

It wouldn't be fixed in a timely manner, wouldn't have been great for large scale pvp and/or friendly fire, and would have been much more annoying for client server calculation. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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What you're essentially saying is that ranged characters will have a disadvantage against melee characters at close range? Well yeah. If you are standing more than like ten meters from another player, they won't be able to run circles around you quickly, so the advantage would go back to the ranged character. Don't quite see how this is a real complaint.

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On 11/25/2016 at 2:19 PM, Leiloni said:

What was bad was how they designed it, not the idea itself. When something has been done really well by a number of games already, then you have to consider that it's the execution that was bad, not the principle.

 

I

Edited by Effeh

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It seems very simple.  ACE was not able to get superior combat correct so they went to default circle strafing combat because it was the choice left to them given time and resources.  This newest version of combat is not as good as combat in games like TERA, but it is better than what CF's version of TERA combat.

 

Some crow (teehee) about how this new combat is some great victory.  It is not--it is the best they could do with defeat.  I am not trying to bash on ACE here--they did what they could to give us superior combat and couldn't get it to work, listened to their players and made the best call they could.  It is all very practical really.   


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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We aren't getting FF either, just more empty advertisements.

We will almost certainly have some form of FF in at least the inner bands.

 

It seems very simple.  ACE was not able to get superior combat correct so they went to default circle strafing combat because it was the choice left to them given time and resources.  This newest version of combat is not as good as combat in games like TERA, but it is better than what CF's version of TERA combat.

 

Some crow (teehee) about how this new combat is some great victory.  It is not--it is the best they could do with defeat.  I am not trying to bash on ACE here--they did what they could to give us superior combat and couldn't get it to work, listened to their players and made the best call they could.  It is all very practical really.   

The current combat philosophy is far superior to TERA combat imo.  Right now they are trying to have a little bit of everything.  Tera combat was fun for a while but the novelty wears off and the animation locking, you realize, is best left to PvE games.  Allowing players more freedom in movement ultimately ups the skill-ceiling. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Watching as Crowfall slowly devolves into everything we already dismissed.

It's always fun as a game develops further and further to see who was able to project things accurately and who wasn't.  Some of us knew what direction crowfall combat would have to head in to work, considering all of the things they want to accomplish (large scale pvp, engaging pvp combat, a game that can actually attract players to a pvp-centric environment).


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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...

 

The current combat philosophy is far superior to TERA combat imo.  Right now they are trying to have a little bit of everything.  Tera combat was fun for a while but the novelty wears off and the animation locking, you realize, is best left to PvE games.  Allowing players more freedom in movement ultimately ups the skill-ceiling. 

 

I'll give you it is a taste thing.  However, I'd argue that you are primarily just trading one type of skill for another.  If they can indeed find a happy mix between free and root motion combat, then there might be something to it and it could potentially be excellent.  


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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I'll give you it is a taste thing.  However, I'd argue that you are primarily just trading one type of skill for another.  If they can indeed find a happy mix between free and root motion combat, then there might be something to it and it could potentially be excellent.  

I think it is the best compromise we could have asked for.  Animation locks still have their place for certain key abilities that you must factor in, but it doesn't dominate every aspect of combat. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Allowing players more freedom in movement ultimately ups the skill-ceiling. 

How? Allowing moving and attacking at the same time if anything decreases the skill required because you can think less about the consequences of attacking in a certain direction and whether that would leave you exposed to attacks. Moving in random directions while attacking does not require skill and neither does constantly trying to be at the back of your opponent so he will not be able to target you which is basically what every MMO PvP devolves into at melee range.

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How? Allowing moving and attacking at the same time if anything decreases the skill required because you can think less about the consequences of attacking in a certain direction and whether that would leave you exposed to attacks. Moving in random directions while attacking does not require skill and neither does constantly trying to be at the back of your opponent so he will not be able to target you which is basically what every MMO PvP devolves into at melee range.

Because targets that can move require more skill to land attacks on, for one. 

 

To you some players may seem random in movement, but to top players their movement is deliberate and serves specific purposes. 

 

People that say it has "devolved" to that I do not believe are experiencing top level pvp. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Because targets that can move require more skill to land attacks on, for one. 

 

To you some players may seem random in movement, but to top players their movement is deliberate and serves specific purposes. 

 

People that say it has "devolved" to that I do not believe are experiencing top level pvp. 

And considering what the top PvP games are nowadays I would suggest that you overestimate the skill required to land attacks on moving target by a large margin especially in melee range. In order for this to be the main challenge of the combat system the movement needs to be a lot faster than it currently is and even at this point we would be talking mostly about the ranged classes and not the melee ones.

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And considering what the top PvP games are nowadays I would suggest that you overestimate the skill required to land attacks on moving target by a large margin especially in melee range. In order for this to be the main challenge of the combat system the movement needs to be a lot faster than it currently is and even at this point we would be talking mostly about the ranged classes and not the melee ones.

There is no main challenge, it's about a combined set of challenges that creates an overall skill-ceiling. 

 

Right now the attacks in crowfall are pretty generous, it's easy to land everything, almost like a tab-target game, but hopefully that tightens up as combat moves along, and hopefully they don't run into latency issues that would prevent them from tightening things up. 

 

But I mean you can watch the videos being released from tests right now, people are struggling to aim even with this version of combat, sure great players wouldn't struggle yet, but it still increases the skill-ceiling compared to animation locked turtle combat that we used to have.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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