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Khoth

My issue with the new combat in Big World

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There is no main challenge, it's about a combined set of challenges that creates an overall skill-ceiling. 

 

Right now the attacks in crowfall are pretty generous, it's easy to land everything, almost like a tab-target game, but hopefully that tightens up as combat moves along, and hopefully they don't run into latency issues that would prevent them from tightening things up. 

 

But I mean you can watch the videos being released from tests right now, people are struggling to aim even with this version of combat, sure great players wouldn't struggle yet, but it still increases the skill-ceiling compared to animation locked turtle combat that we used to have.

Well, what I see in the video footage is something completely different - nobody has any problem landing an attack and nobody can ever escape because there is no penalty of any kind for attacking and moving at the same time. In the older videos sometimes I see something very cool - people dodging attacks they see coming. What I also see in the older videos is that the animations and thus the attack locks are too long and the movement speed when not attacking is too low so yeah the combat would feel a lot more rooted  but allowing movement while attacking is not the solution to that problem.

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It's always fun as a game develops further and further to see who was able to project things accurately and who wasn't.  Some of us knew what direction crowfall combat would have to head in to work, considering all of the things they want to accomplish (large scale pvp, engaging pvp combat, a game that can actually attract players to a pvp-centric environment).

 

This is hubris/trolling, and you are blatantly overplaying it.

 

A better approach is to objectively stick to mechanics/performance statements as opposed to everyone facing off into their own little "I told you so and I know better than You!" corners like angry Gerbils.

 

The game isn't done yet.  Combat isn't done yet.

 

For myself I see two things in the thread that speak out to me:  1) The current combat system/movement will promote blobs/mobs of players freewheeling away at each other to too high a degree, 2) Helix and others probably made a point regarding budget constraints and scheduling.

 

They took a taste to the left side, now are taking a sampling to the right side.  None of this means they've found "nominal" yet.

 

Play it out, everyone give constructive advice, that's the gateway to better . . . whatever form better takes.

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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This is hubris/trolling, and you are blatantly overplaying it.

 

Nope, this happens time and time again, and it's pretty easy to project if you have enough understanding of game dynamics.

 

A better approach is to objectively stick to mechanics/performance statements as opposed to everyone facing off into their own little "I told you so and I know better than You!" corners like angry Gerbils.

 

The I told you so moments are often educational for people, some people end up denying that they ever misread anything, others accept it graciously, and others develop a strong hatred towards a changing game and get very "doom and gloom".

 

The game isn't done yet.  Combat isn't done yet.

 

Nope but those of us that know where it is headed know where it is headed, and we know combat will not be reverted to the way we knew it would never stay as. 

 

For myself I see two things in the thread that speak out to me:  1) The current combat system/movement will promote blobs/mobs of players freewheeling away at each other to too high a degree, 2) Helix and others probably made a point regarding budget constraints and scheduling.

 

Well, I think you are ignoring the concept of friendly fire here.

 

They took a taste to the left side, now are taking a sampling to the right side.  None of this means they've found "nominal" yet.

 

This is more than a taste, but as I mentioned, some people can project what happens and others can not.  Often times people that can't see ahead don't think others could possibly see ahead.

 

Play it out, everyone give constructive advice, that's the gateway to better . . . whatever form better takes.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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We will almost certainly have some form of FF in at least the inner bands.

 

The current combat philosophy is far superior to TERA combat imo.  Right now they are trying to have a little bit of everything.  Tera combat was fun for a while but the novelty wears off and the animation locking, you realize, is best left to PvE games.  Allowing players more freedom in movement ultimately ups the skill-ceiling. 

 

TERA has a higher skill ceiling than Wildstar or GW2. GW2 and Wildstar are spammy combat styles. Look at mass PvP in Wildstar or GW2. It really has no tactic to it aside from Stand in your teams big circles and try and lure the enemy team into them while hitting all your AoE abilities and your defensives whenever you take big damage, I'd argue that Wildstar is more tactical than GW2 even in large and small scale PvP. 

 

TERA on the other hand is very coordinated. Focusing healers, taking down priority targets, Putting CC on certain players to push them out of the fight, Area of denial skills to move  your opponents in the direction you want even in massive fights that are 40v40 or 50v50. 

 

Even in small scale TERA is vastly superior to a spammy combat style like Wildstar or GW2. I've played both games at high end. I was the top rated Stalker in the game in 3v3, 5v5 and RBGs when the game released. I've been rank 1 multiple times in TERA on my Sorcerer in 3v3 and FWC. The skill ceiling in TERA is higher because your decisions have more consequence than a game like Wildstar or GW2 that is less punishing on using abilities at the wrong time. 

 

Crowfall did not implement a TERA style combat system. It was vastly inferior to TERA. TERA utilizes I-Frames less sparingly than Crowfall does. Its much faster paced and the TTK is super low. CF didnt do any of those things. TTKs were high, I-frames are pretty nonexistant and not utilized to actually dodge attacks and stay away from your opponent rather than escape utilities in "oh poorly made socks" moments that you end up dying anyway because "oh poorly made socks". CF was slow, very slow it felt like TERA at level 1 when you first started. Not TERA at level 65 where you have attack speed in abundance. Every ability in TERA moved your character a decent distance as a melee, you were never standing still. In crowfall all the abilities were and are very stationary. There is no real movement attached to them outside of actual movement abilities. Which created  a stale experience. 

 

Had CF actually taken the core of TERAs combat and improved on it, we wouldn't be having this conversation. 

 

Lets be honest. TERA is a terrible game. The content is lackluster, the dev team cares nothing for their playerbase, balance has never been anything they cared about and the game runs like poorly made socks. But it still has a lot of players and still turns a massive profit. Why? Because its combat is just that good. No other game could survive on its combat alone. TERA does that. If GW2 was content deprived like TERA, it would be dead. If Wildstar... well yeah. 

Edited by vunak

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Tera combat was okay at best, you can have your opinion on believing Tera has better combat, but imo GW2 did it much better. And the Crowfall rooted combat was horribly bad.zzzzzz. Also Tera relied on HEALER on the melee to sustain anything in a large battle, otherwise they were insta dead because of lack of mobility, and forced animations, it happened very often outside small 3v3 and 5v5. Atm horse is not balanced and i know it will receive a nerf, as its ment to be support class not a straight keep party alive and face smash buttons class.

 

If CF did have Tera combat maybe you are right and most would not complain but Tera struggles to handle large scale fights as melee with out a full blown healer. That was one of my main arguments against that style of combat. Honestly anything even remotely caught without some sorta a blink was just dead. Much prefer this current combat system, tho it def needs to be fine tuned and balanced and make it feel more impactful. Having more slows and immobilize will help alot.

 

Idk what the devs are gonna do tho honestly with combat they cant just keep switching the system around. And if soft launch is mid 2017, i feel thar will be quite a bit of trouble. I get that they want to soft launch, but idk if it will honestly be ready by then for even that. I prefer the game to come out as soft launch when its more ready, otherwise people will simply overlook it and call it for what it will appear, a rushed game or cash grab. But this is a whole diff subject. Make more money, soft launch a better game.

Edited by krevra

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GW2 everyone was their own healer, not to mention the down mechanic, so you cant really argue that GW2 is similar to CF there. Everyone was self sufficient on their own because of everyone having their own heals. Or Ele dropping healing rains and things on the raid. Now GW2 even has more baseline healing specs like Druid and Tempest so you cant even argue that. 

 

CF follows more the traditional with Druid and Legionnaire. The only thing CF promised us was not having firehose healers which was/is a healing class that just sits back looking at HP all day. But they never said anything about not having a more role specific traditional healer, they just said they were going to put different mechanics behind it which is what they did its a much more active role. 

Edited by vunak

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What was bad was how they designed it, not the idea itself. When something has been done really well by a number of games already, then you have to consider that it's the execution that was bad, not the principle.

Nope, it's the principle. It's horrible in BDO and it is horrible in TERA(a game I've played extensively in the PvP). They still have some redeeming qualities as far as combat go but root motion is really holding those games back.


Member of The BlackHand Order

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Ok boys and girls lets address this rooted combat/no movement that some of you are advocating.

 

It has already been tried in CF and failed spectacularly. It resulted in the inability of melee characters to kill anyone in a 1 vs 1 situation. All your opponent needed to do was turn tail and run. Every time you closed the gap and swung your blade for that sweet exposed back you stopped on a dime and hit nothing but air as your prey skipped away laughing at you. Try to swing your CC ability, stop on a dime and hit air. Try a charge/dash CC, oops my opponent is not required to run in a straight line, miss spectacularly.  Combat "devolved" into surround 1 enemy and pummel him to death.

 

Rooted combat for ranged classes felt terribad. Playing as a ranger and drawing back on your bow while a melee class is barreling down on you while you are incapable of taking even a single step backwards was frustrating. If you think playing a ranged character is tough now, you should try playing one where every time you try to use an ability (even left mouse click) roots you in place for a couple of seconds. To a certain degree there needs to be a balancing of ranged combat powers, perhaps even to the point of you can "pre-cast" an ability or not have it fire until you have released the key, which would allow players to move into a better position to fire the skill to compensate for the fluidity of other players etc.

 

It sounds as if some players desire a Wilstar style combat where all the bad things show up in red and all the good things show up in green and they don't need to know much more than that. While there were some balance issues with BDO classes the combat itself was very fluid and responded accordingly, and if you were skilled enough you could clearly identify what powers your opponent was using and you could respond accordingly. BDO in my opinion is a touch too dash/dodge oriented, but at the same time feels very good.

 

Another thing that players are asking for is an increase in the projectile speed, but apparently they missed the part of the skill tree that does exactly this. Players are testing a base version of not only combat but also that of a fully trained character. Perhaps in a later test the devs will give us 1 year's worth of training time to allocate, or simply let us pick X number of skills to train as we see fit.  This would be like comparing combat in a game like D3/POE in the first 20 levels vs a fully geared character, the speed of combat and the general feel of combat is completely different even though in many instances you are still using the same skills.

 

EDIT: I said Terra style combat red/green I meant Wildstar. (thx elveone)

Edited by Verot

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Zushakon, it is quite obvious that the principle is not horrible as plenty of people enjoy both Tera and BDO. Your personal dislike of something does not make it universally bad.

 

Verot, it seems that the previous implementation of the combat missed a lot of marks. One of the most simple ones being moving the melee characters forward on attack which would alleviate the chasing and stopping in place problem immediately. The problem with the free movement system is that the character is not predictable while attacking and thus the attack is harder to avoid or counter and there is no risk factor when attacking. Locking the movement for the attack duration in a certain pattern brings that predictability and with it the risk and the ability to counter the attack. Complete stop for ranged characters can feel pretty bad but some movement speed reduction while attacking would be the a fine solution to kiting and will introduce a risk factor to attacking as a ranged character. That kind of slow on attack can work for a melee character as well but there has to be a disadvantage for attacking if the combat can claim any kind of "action" title to it.

 

On an unrelated tangent - I do not think TERA went with the red is bad, green is good approach that Wildstar had to the combat telegraphs, at least not initially. You had to watch your enemy animations in order to predict an incoming attack. A lot of people call Wildstar a MMO bullet hell and I kinda agree with that and partially that is because of the free movement system.

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Well now you have described the very problem that momentum combat solves. If movement is carried forward on an attack then you have fluid/moving combat. If you slow the person when he swings, you end up back at the point where all a player needs to do is run away. If you slow/stop the character after the combat animation the result is the same, you miss your target or are left behind.

 

There are several combat powers which do require a player to stand still and I think the devs have done a decent job in providing risk to winding up the massive damage dealing powers while allow fluid movement for the quick hitting lower dps abilities (Myrm left click vs #2 ability).

 

Perhaps we will have the ability to train a skill which will reduce the "firing" time of abilities to help all classes adjust to moving combatants. This is not only a passive power increase for an archetype it retains the player skill check as well.

 

Did you happen to play the build where every attack carried you forward, often times past your opponent?

Edited by Verot

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Well now you have described the very problem that momentum combat solves. If movement is carried forward on an attack then you have fluid/moving combat. If you slow the person when he swings, you end up back at the point where all a player needs to do is run away. If you slow/stop the character after the combat animation the result is the same, you miss your target or are left behind.

 

There are several combat powers which do require a player to stand still and I think the devs have done a decent job in providing risk to winding up the massive damage dealing powers while allow fluid movement for the quick hitting lower dps abilities (Myrm left click vs #2 ability).

 

Perhaps we will have the ability to train a skill which will reduce the "firing" time of abilities to help all classes adjust to moving combatants. This is not only a passive power increase for an archetype it retains the player skill check as well.

 

Did you happen to play the build where every attack carried you forward, often times past your opponent?

No, I haven't, I have played only the last build, but I can see there might be a problem with that version if there is a problem with collision detection and the hit does not stop at your opponent. There is kind of a problem with that kind of hit in single player games as well and you often have the option to lock your facing direction toward your enemy which results in a smoother combat experience - you would miss your attack only if the enemy actively takes an action to avoid it. Even without a lock I think that that kind of system is superior to what is currently in the game - if you miss your attack you are left open to enemy attack which means you have to aim and decide when to attack and not just spam attacks as soon as you can.

 

To be fair what I'm advocating for is not your typical MMO combat experience and I doubt a lot of people who like MMO combat would like what I have in mind but it seemed to be what Crowfall was aiming for at the beginning. I hate the large scale pvp I saw in GW2 and ESO and the new Crowfall combat strongly reminds me of those games - as I said before I am just looking out for my own interest.

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Well, here's the problem. It should not be about standing around and hitting each other or running around and hitting each other. It should be about taking actions that have meaningful consequences - attacks that leave you open for enemy attack if you miss or get countered, sudden movement that can be used effectively to dodge an incoming attack, a damage mitigating action such as raising your shield or a more risky counter that can be used against certain kinds of attacks if used in time like a parry-riposte system.

That's been my point for years.

 

Holding a reticle over a hit box takes skill, but it's monkey simple skill and it wouldn't hold my interest any longer than most FPS games.

 

Reacting to your opponent's actions and tells effectively is the kind of skill I want to see.

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That's been my point for years.

 

Holding a reticle over a hit box takes skill, but it's monkey simple skill and it wouldn't hold my interest any longer than most FPS games.

 

Reacting to your opponent's actions and tells effectively is the kind of skill I want to see.

People that think aiming is monkey simple skill, generally don't have good aim and are trying to diminish the value of mechanical skill because it is their weakness. 

 

A top level player has good mechanical and tactical ability. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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People that think aiming is monkey simple skill, generally don't have good aim and are trying to diminish the value of mechanical skill because it is their weakness. 

 

A top level player has good mechanical and tactical ability. 

Or they really find it very very boring. Seriously, stop with the "I disagree with you therefore you are incompetent" fallacies.

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Or they really find it very very boring. Seriously, stop with the "I disagree with you therefore you are incompetent" fallacies.

I'm sorry but people that have good aim, don't find it boring, because they understand what it requires to actually have good aim.

 

People aren't incompetent based on whether they disagree with me or not, but I will always push for this game to have a higher skill-ceiling than average, because it is supposed to be a pvp-centric game, and I will always share my opinion when people are pushing it in a different direction. 

 

I will also repeatedly mention when I believe someone is reacting and suggesting things out of self-interest instead of for the greater good of the entire game.

 

Having a high skill-ceiling helps an entire game, you can see this with all the big esports, which also happen to be very popular games that appeal to people of all skill levels.  Why is this?  Because when you have a high skill-ceiling it gives you a nice progression system for players of all skill-levels to strive for. 

 

Crowfall is designed with a very apparent hardcore to softcore system fron inner bands to the EKs, this is great, it will appeal to a wide variety of people, but the last thing they should do is neuter the hardcore side of it, what good would that do?  Turning off hardcore pvpers from a pvp game is never going to work out well for a game.  A good recent example is albion online, which is now pretty dead in the water. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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The earlier combat had many problems, namely a lack of responsiveness, fluidity, and control.  A lot of this had to do with the length/speed of the animations (particularly recovery animations), lag/desync, combos and the problems with root-motion and collisions.  I think it makes sense for them to move away from their earlier approaches, because many of those problems were likely to just get worse with larger numbers in the same location.

 

My problem with the current combat is that they went too far in terms of mobility, especially during attacks.  While I like the additional control and responsiveness, I do not like the offensive mobility that free-movement left-click brings, because all other abilities now need to be balanced off of that.  Your character should move slower when utilizing abilities so that there is more decision making in terms of being more offensive or defensive.  Reducing the mobility will also help with balancing CC, as well as ranged archetypes.

 

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I'm sorry but people that have good aim, don't find it boring, because they understand what it requires to actually have good aim.

 

People aren't incompetent based on whether they disagree with me or not, but I will always push for this game to have a higher skill-ceiling than average, because it is supposed to be a pvp-centric game, and I will always share my opinion when people are pushing it in a different direction. 

 

I will also repeatedly mention when I believe someone is reacting and suggesting things out of self-interest instead of for the greater good of the entire game.

 

Having a high skill-ceiling helps an entire game, you can see this with all the big esports, which also happen to be very popular games that appeal to people of all skill levels.  Why is this?  Because when you have a high skill-ceiling it gives you a nice progression system for players of all skill-levels to strive for. 

 

Crowfall is designed with a very apparent hardcore to softcore system fron inner bands to the EKs, this is great, it will appeal to a wide variety of people, but the last thing they should do is neuter the hardcore side of it, what good would that do?  Turning off hardcore pvpers from a pvp game is never going to work out well for a game.  A good recent example is albion online, which is now pretty dead in the water. 

You have not yet proven that having the ability to move and attack at the same time results in higher skill ceiling, especially at that low of movement speed, and there are quite a lot of arguments to the contrary. The ability to aim is a basic requirement to play competitively and not an advanced skill.

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You have not yet proven that having the ability to move and attack at the same time results in higher skill ceiling, especially at that low of movement speed, and there are quite a lot of arguments to the contrary. The ability to aim is a basic requirement to play competitively and not an advanced skill.

I have no interest in "proving" that to people like you, there is a whole world of competitive gaming out there that proves the very principles I share on these forums.

 

I'm here to share feedback that will lead to a game that is appealing to a wide array of gamers, instead of just a game appealing to one type of gamer.

 

The game will go through growing pains, and it will evolve to a good game, or it will fail, and along the way people will disagree and complain about everything, but that is irrelevant to me, what is relevant is that the suggestions of the high-skilled competitive crowd are represented, and what ACE does with those suggestions is up to them. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Whether the previous iteration of the combat system or the current, It seems that there is too much of an underestimation of the average gamer's mechanical and intellectual abilities. For example, the combo system or the fact that you don't need to aim the knight's block (knight's block is one of my pet peeves. How can you call this an "action game" when your block is 360 degrees?).

 

And where are flinches? There seems to be very basic fundamental things to an action game that are missing.

Edited by Aguise

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