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Khoth

My issue with the new combat in Big World

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Whether the previous iteration of the combat system or the current, It seems that there is too much of an underestimation of the average gamer's mechanical and intellectual abilities. For example, the combo system or the fact that you don't need to aim the knights block (knights block in one of my pet peeves, how can you call this an "action game" when your block is 360 degrees?).

The skills in general are very generous right now, maybe this is for testing purposes to get more spell interaction going, hopefully over time they tighten stuff up, I know not too long ago they did tighten melee up a bit, but obviously the game still has plenty of room for improvement.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I have no interest in "proving" that to people like you, there is a whole world of competitive gaming out there that proves the very principles I share on these forums.

 

I'm here to share feedback that will lead to a game that is appealing to a wide array of gamers, instead of just a game appealing to one type of gamer.

 

The game will go through growing pains, and it will evolve to a good game, or it will fail, and along the way people will disagree and complain about everything, but that is irrelevant to me, what is relevant is that the suggestions of the high-skilled competitive crowd are represented, and what ACE does with those suggestions is up to them. 

Here's the thing - you are not talking on behalf of a large array of gamers - you are talking about your own personal view on the matter as is anyone on the forums. Please stop referring to yourself as some kind of elite collective that knows better than anybody else.

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Here's the thing - you are not talking on behalf of a large array of gamers - you are talking about your own personal view on the matter as is anyone on the forums. Please stop referring to yourself as some kind of elite collective that knows better than anybody else.

I'm talking on behalf of highly skilled competitive gamers.  And yes, most of those gamers generally agree on certain gaming principles. 

 

And sorry but some advice is going to be better than other advice, and we get to see how it all plays out, but I am confident in my suggestions, and so far they've rung pretty true.

 

And you are allowed to have different opinions and you should be confident about them, without feeling threatened just because someone is confident about their own suggestions.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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An ancient problem that's plagued mankind is how to land a spell on a circle strafing opponent while the keyboard only turns so fast.  Someday, we may solve this mystery.

Truly, I did not know that, perhaps you should have killed him at Kerak.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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It seems very simple.  ACE was not able to get superior combat correct so they went to default circle strafing combat because it was the choice left to them given time and resources.  This newest version of combat is not as good as combat in games like TERA, but it is better than what CF's version of TERA combat.

 

Some crow (teehee) about how this new combat is some great victory.  It is not--it is the best they could do with defeat.  I am not trying to bash on ACE here--they did what they could to give us superior combat and couldn't get it to work, listened to their players and made the best call they could.  It is all very practical really.   

 

This wraps it  up pretty succinctly.  With a KS funded game, we were bound to have the corners cut somewhere.  I'm sure if ACE had multiple millions more, they could hire a handful of people to only work on combat, and it would turn out as fluid and responsive as TERA or BDO. 

 

I agree that this isn't a bash on ACE, and they did what they can.  I'd rather have fluid and responsive generic feeling combat, than stilted and buggy feeling animation lock combat.


"Food for the crows..."    Nobuo Xa'el

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Whether the previous iteration of the combat system or the current, It seems that there is too much of an underestimation of the average gamer's mechanical and intellectual abilities. 

 

Yep and it's a tough problem. The most poignant example of this underestimation is myrmidon's Berserk. If you go back and watch the initial video by blair or read the blurb, he was insisting that people would have trouble mitigating berserker crash. In reality, there are only 2 reasons anyone would miss a berserker crash: somebody stunned/suppressed you at the perfect time (onus is massively on them, this is not the failing they were thinking of) or the server thinks your crash ends at a totally different time which sometimes happens now (a bug). So if you've ever wondered why berserk is so strong, it's because it was balanced around the assumption that people would regularly screw up and not hit 2 or C at the right time a good portion of the time.

 

I think the problem might be that the developers are just pretty bad at video games. I don't know a less harsh way to say that. If you look at their past development history, or even the games they talk the most about enjoying, there's just no reason to think that they would be good at a game like Crowfall. So the challenge for them is to make a game that they are going to suck at, while still being able to bullseye what's hard for their average player to do. Now that's developing on hard mode!

 

 

Blair on berserker crash:

 

https://youtu.be/tBGA_K9XHrY?t=113

Managing this process, timing that crash in a way that proves less-than-fatal, will be a unique challenge for this archetype.

To that end, we’ve added a few ways for him to mitigate the Berserker Crash and indicators to let you know when it is coming. I won’t go into the details right now, but (as usual) the goal is to make this system skill based. A skilled player with great timing can use other powers to mitigate some or all of the Crash Damage. A less-than-skilled player will cut an impressive swath of damage across the battlefield, but then crash to the ground in a bloody, lifeless heap.

Edited by Effeh

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Keep the microcritiques of combat coming. You want your slower combat so you can judge the outcomes of duels or your character to flinch. Realistically, it's going to be 4 (or more) other players on target that are going to be the death of you, not some 1v1 where you worry about feints and footwork.

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I have no interest in "proving" that to people like you, there is a whole world of competitive gaming out there that proves the very principles I share on these forums.

 

I'm here to share feedback that will lead to a game that is appealing to a wide array of gamers, instead of just a game appealing to one type of gamer.

 

The game will go through growing pains, and it will evolve to a good game, or it will fail, and along the way people will disagree and complain about everything, but that is irrelevant to me, what is relevant is that the suggestions of the high-skilled competitive crowd are represented, and what ACE does with those suggestions is up to them.

So as a recognized figure in Competitive E-sports who has been enlisted by ACE to enlighten everyone, what in your opinion are your favorite top-3 Games that fit your personal view of high-skill ceiling and quality game play?


“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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So as a recognized figure in Competitive E-sports who has been enlisted by ACE to enlighten everyone, what in your opinion are your favorite top-3 Games that fit your personal view of high-skill ceiling and quality game play?

ACE didn't enlist me.  You can have 4 games, Starcraft: BW, Dota 2, Counter-strike 1.6, Quake 3. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Root motion combat was so awful I literally had written the game off, stopped testing, and stopped recommending the project to friends.  All that changed with the Big World test and the implementation of free movement basic attacks and fewer rooted animations tied to abilities.  All it took was a few videos showcasing the current combat system to draw in close to 15 brand new HoA testers!  I personally see nothing wrong with a melee player circle strafe basic attacking and trying to box in a player as there are plenty of ways to escape, get peeled, apply snares/stuns, and create temporary kite windows.  I do think basic melee attacks should consume enough stamina that simply spamming lmb attacks will affect your ability to gap close with rmb dashes.  I really dislike the idea of this game turning into battle chess with umpteen telegraphed animations.  I feel like free movement allows the better players to recognize player/group movement patterns and adjust dynamically.  Friendly fire would also significantly increase the level of coordination required to take down targets and penalize ultimate murder balls.

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More FF talk, eh? I'll post here what I posted in another thread concerning FF, some may find it enlightening, others redundant.  

 

A whole bunch of FF talk that came out of this thread that'd I'd like to address: full-spectrum FF won't work in this game until LOD on character models and nameplates is fixed. As a Confessor your LMB has a 35m range but the game only accurately renders character nameplates at ~15m. Turning off LOD in the config folder doesn't fix this. No amount of situational awareness or battlefield readiness can make the nameplates appear legible at 35 meters; so until level of detail is fixed so we can see who is friend and foe at the range of our powers, friendly fire will only result in cacophonous melees with a 15m radius, essentially rendering ranged classes moot. I'd like to see all the FF proponents first try to convince ACE to fix LOD before trying to convince them to implement FF.  

 

It's for the betterment of the game, after all. 

 

Hg0LXwa.png

 

 

 

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The problem with the free movement system is that the character is not predictable while attacking and thus the attack is harder to avoid or counter and there is no risk factor when attacking.

 

Realize all Archetypes feature a whole suite of CC tools, dashes/escapes, and gap closers which in turn generate predictive movement situations.  What will distinguish many of the good players from the bads are the players who have a deeper knowledge of what all the Archetypes bring to the table.  Once you have a deeper understanding of what each class brings you can predict and read their tells and take proactive countermeasures.

Edited by cyjax

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I am actually very happy with how the combat is currently.  The only way it could be improved is if it was more like BDO, but then you start going down the path to twitch game play which is something they stated they do not want.  Cannot have root motion and slow animations together.  Either root motion and very fast animations, or no root motion and slower animations (current phase).

 

Also on the topic of Ranger arrows, they need to speed those things up by like 5 times and widen hitboxes by about 5% and go from there.

Edited by amazingtacoburito

 

Formerly known as - AmazingTacoBurito

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The issue with "too much" freedom of movement in combat is that it loses its tactical significance. In Black Desert movement and attacks/abilities are married so the player with skill enough to maintain superior positioning has a major leg up. On opposite ends of this spectrum are, "no moving while attack animations play so position is win or die," and "never stop moving b/c the animations play anyway." I think OPs point is that while there is some semblance of this marriage in the current iteration, it has swung too far to the other side.

+1 to this.

 

So I have a different perspective to combat. I DIDNT play the old system, so I take everyones word that "this is so much better" which is unanimously accepted and I accept it without knowing - it probably IS better.

 

That said, what I see many doing is ASSUMING the OP wants to go BACK to how it was. I dont think this is the case. I think he is advocating for a MIDDLE GROUND.

 

Now, my opinion... I like Root combat mechanics. It makes you think MUCH more about positioning and when to use abilities. The game that has BEST used a root mechanic to create truly amazing combat, was Neverwinter Online (not nights). I played that game for years and unfortunately they ran the game into the groun chasing profits and making it P2W but go back to the "vanilla" days, 2 years ago and it was perfect. It doesnt FEEL like you are rooted, but you are. Movement takes a HUGE priority and it made you think twice about everything because you could use a long CD and miss due to being rooted if they dodged.

 

Now, from a combat "theory" what I have found about root motion.

- The root motion needs to take place during only PART of the animation of the attack. 

- The root motion needs to NOT take place after the attack has already hit. 

 

I think root motion requires more "tactics" when done right. What you DONT want is a LONG root motion that makes players feel very un-mobile. Players should retain "mobility".

 

If you translate this to real life (yes I know this is fantasy) if I am swinging a huge 2H sword while strafing, I lose a LOT of "force" behind that blow. Its only when I stand still, plant my feet, that I get the most damage out of the hit. Same goes for shooting a bow. Ever try to shoot a bow while moving? Its incredibly hard... 

 

I think small root motions during attacks would make it less "floaty" and less about spamming, add more tactics etc.

 

What I want to stress, I do NOT want it to go back to "how it was before".

 

Again, if you want a good idea of how to do root motion well, watch a Neverwtiner PVP video. Here ill link one of my videos from back in the day, this was taken from a test server while testing a new "tenacity/resilience" stat on the PRT:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-danZ5aY40 its more showcasing 1v1 and it isnt super exciting play BUT....

 

You can clearly see the root motion take effect, but still plenty of mobility pre and post attacks. I think when its done RIGHT, it can be much better than non root mechanics.

 

I cant tell you how much I dislike elder scrolls type combat where its all about cheesing movement and be always strafing while spamming attacks. I get a LITTLE sense of this when playing Crowfall. I spam LMB, use my abilities for more damage/control but its ALOT of strafing. 

 

Edited by th3gatekeeper

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More FF talk, eh? I'll post here what I posted in another thread concerning FF, some may find it enlightening, others redundant.  

 

"

chodie, on 29 Nov 2016 - 12:23 AM, said:snapback.png

 

A whole bunch of FF talk that came out of this thread that'd I'd like to address: full-spectrum FF won't work in this game until LOD on character models and nameplates is fixed. As a Confessor your LMB has a 35m range but the game only accurately renders character nameplates at ~15m. Turning off LOD in the config folder doesn't fix this. No amount of situational awareness or battlefield readiness can make the nameplates appear legible at 35 meters; so until level of detail is fixed so we can see who is friend and foe at the range of our powers, friendly fire will only result in cacophonous melees with a 15m radius, essentially rendering ranged classes moot. I'd like to see all the FF proponents first try to convince ACE to fix LOD before trying to convince them to implement FF.  

 

It's for the betterment of the game, after all.

"

 

 

Right now i agree with you since everyone looks the same. But in the live game you should at least know you group well enough to tell people apart. Honestly people dont check nameplates that much middle battle, gear/skin would be a better focus point for me at least. The customization wont be mind blowing but i think it will be enough...

 

Also wouldnt this be another bridge separating okay from good players? For me not using nameplates forces players to keep track of what is happening around them. Using your enemies colors could cause some good situations in the battlefield.

Edited by BarriaKarl

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Right now i agree with you since everyone looks the same. But in the live game you should at least know you group well enough to tell people apart. Honestly people dont check nameplates that much middle battle, gear/skin would be a better focus point for me at least. The customization wont be mind blowing but i think it will be enough...

 

Also wouldnt this be another bridge separating okay from good players? For me not using nameplates forces players to keep track of what is happening around them. Using your enemies colors could cause some good situations in the battlefield.

 

Yes, ideally on release character appearance customization and guild colors/tabards worn as clothes and guild affiliation in the form of a crest ala HD team crests will help determine friend from foe.

 

There still remains the problem of draw distance, though. At the very least you should be able to visually identify a player at the range of your powers, whether that be through crest or tabard or name: that is the crux of my previous post. 


Hg0LXwa.png

 

 

 

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Every combat system has downsides. Movement is now more about "twitch" than "tactics" which some people may not like. Guess what, they tried it the other way for a year and it sucked really bad. You are the second person that I've read a negative opinion on the new combat direction from, that doesn't make your points any less valid, but it's worth pointing out that I haven't seen the forums this unified about combat ever. Indeed even the staunchest champions of the past combat system are either mostly happy with the current changes or silent.

 

Just because the previous combat system was bad doesn't necessarily mean this one is good, even if it's better.

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Just because the previous combat system was bad doesn't necessarily mean this one is good, even if it's better.

 

Its true, honestly after thinking about this i am good with Tera/Dark Souls type combat, Tho i prefer more free flowing combat, the first iteration of combat was super bad that much is agreed upon, and current combat is better, but it still needs alot of work. At the end of the day i just want a good combat system, be it like GW2 or Tera.


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