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My issue with the new combat in Big World


Khoth

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Some people rely on remapping the mouse keys for their basic keybinding abilities in games. This discussion is dumb and off topic. Let's get back to talking combat because as others said a page ago, that's easily the most important thing to get right in this game.

Wont the game give you the ability to bind whatever keys/buttons you wish upon release?

 

Ill agree it's off topic, but hardly a dumb subject.

 

Back on topic. Th3gatekeeper, it would be kind of nice if they would throw in a temporary one day patch to test new combat versions so we could test that. Faster root motion and the ability to move while using 1-6 powers. Or use one testing window to do so. Then revert back to compare.

 

Formerly known as - AmazingTacoBurito

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Wont the game give you the ability to bind whatever keys/buttons you wish upon release?

 

Ill agree it's off topic, but hardly a dumb subject.

 

Back on topic. Th3gatekeeper, it would be kind of nice if they would throw in a temporary one day patch to test new combat versions so we could test that. Faster root motion and the ability to move while using 1-6 powers. Or use one testing window to do so. Then revert back to compare.

 

If you have a gaming mouse then you have extra keys that need to be keybound first because they don't appear in standard keybindings that only include keyboard and RMB/LMB/Wheel. My mouse has two default keybind setups for the extra keys, with a toggle on the bottom, but if you want to use anything other than those defaults you need the software. I'm ok with the toggle but many people find it helps to free up extra keys by binding the mouse to random stuff not easily reachable with your WASD hand, or odd key combos. Also I think some newer mice don't even have that toggle so to use anything other than the regular number keys (aka the easiest to reach) you need the program to rebind them.

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I'm fine with it as long as it doesn't turn into full on "bunny hopping". For all the things I liked in Darkfall combat I could not STAND bunny hopping. 

 

They could just do something along the lines of what TERA did to prevent it. In that game it was a guaranteed knockdown if you got hit in the air, along with usually doing more damage to KD'd players depending on the opponent's build. It did have an issue for a bit where people were exploiting it to desync themselves so they couldn't be hit (just constantly jumping), but aside from that it's a great way to get annoying people to stay on the ground in combat.

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I'm late as heck to this thread. IMHO The current system feels 80-90% good. It could use a bit more "weight" to it yes (particularly when side strafing) but at the moment it's good enough to push back till later to make room for more important features.

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Sad to hear that melee combat is now about as skill intensive as WoW. I guess the bad players whined long enough and loud enough that ACE finally caved and dumbed the game down to their level.

 

Might as well get it over with and make the game Tab target so that ranged can be played competitively by the lowest common denominator too. Go ahead and toss in RNG hit/miss too to even the playing field. Wouldn't want the most skilled person to win every time; it wouldn't be "exciting" enough.

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Sad to hear that melee combat is now about as skill intensive as WoW. I guess the bad players whined long enough and loud enough that ACE finally caved and dumbed the game down to their level.

 

Might as well get it over with and make the game Tab target so that ranged can be played competitively by the lowest common denominator too. Go ahead and toss in RNG hit/miss too to even the playing field. Wouldn't want the most skilled person to win every time; it wouldn't be "exciting" enough.

To be fair, WoW pvp took the most overall skill out of any MMORPG to date, which is why it was such a successful esport.  If crowfall can maintain the movement and speed of WoW, but add tighter aiming it will be superior to WoW due to the fact that it is action combat and not tab-target.  And that should work out great for Crowfall, something familiar to the biggest MMORPG playerbases, but requiring more skill because it is coming out over a decade later.

 

If I recall most of the people that insult WoW's combat were never able to achieve a high-rating in it. 

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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To be fair, WoW pvp took the most overall skill out of any MMORPG to date, which is why it was such a successful esport.  If crowfall can maintain the movement and speed of WoW, but add tighter aiming it will be superior to WoW due to the fact that it is action combat and not tab-target.  And that should work out great for Crowfall, something familiar to the biggest MMORPG playerbases, but requiring more skill because it is coming out over a decade later.

 

If I recall most of the people that insult WoW's combat were never able to achieve a high-rating in it. 

 

Now I know you've been trolling the entire time.

 

WoW was "esports" for about 5 minutes and only then because Blizzard was sponsoring their own tournaments and trying to make it a thing.

 

Top WoW players couldn't even make it in GW2's floaty split body combat, and quit after a few days of getting dominated by hotjoin heroes who are afraid to even queue for ranked.

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To be fair, WoW pvp took the most overall skill out of any MMORPG to date, which is why it was such a successful esport.  If crowfall can maintain the movement and speed of WoW, but add tighter aiming it will be superior to WoW due to the fact that it is action combat and not tab-target.  And that should work out great for Crowfall, something familiar to the biggest MMORPG playerbases, but requiring more skill because it is coming out over a decade later.

 

If I recall most of the people that insult WoW's combat were never able to achieve a high-rating in it. 

Successful esport...riiiiight. Even blizzard head of e-sport admitted it was hard to watch, and it's big understatement. Apart blizzCon which is inside tournament, WoW is not existing on esport scene, and it never was part of it. Even their own title Overwatch gathered multiple times bigger competitive crowd and audience in less than half of year.

 

WoW clickfest neither was nor will be pinnacle of combat in MMO. And any decent player knows it. There's a reason why most skilled players don't seek challenge there. It was great in vanilla, and maybe in TBC, i give that. And mainly because nothing better was possible ~10 years ago. Time flies, technology change and evolve, and old solutions become obsolete. People too stubborn to realize that can scream and spam all they want, but it can't change reality. 

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Now I know you've been trolling the entire time.

 

WoW was "esports" for about 5 minutes and only then because Blizzard was sponsoring their own tournaments and trying to make it a thing.

 

Top WoW players couldn't even make it in GW2's floaty split body combat, and quit after a few days of getting dominated by hotjoin heroes who are afraid to even queue for ranked.

It was an esport as long as Blizzard wanted it to be an esport, then they stopped balancing and the matches became 45minute stalemates.  It was also the most viewed esport while it existed shattering all old numbers. 

 

Also no one cares about gw2 as a game, it has nothing to do with its mechanics, the game never had a real pvp scene and it failed completely as an esport, unlike WoW, the most successful esport.  But I see your biases against WoW have created this story in your head that people quit GW2 because they couldn't hang, instead of the real narrative that GW2 lost most of its players 2 weeks after launch because the game provided no real challenge in any department. 

 

Successful esport...riiiiight. Even blizzard head of e-sport admitted it was hard to watch, and it's big understatement. Apart blizzCon which is inside tournament, WoW is not existing on esport scene, and it never was part of it. Even their own title Overwatch gathered multiple times bigger competitive crowd and audience in less than half of year.

 

WoW clickfest neither was nor will be pinnacle of combat in MMO. And any decent player knows it. There's a reason why most skilled players don't seek challenge there. It was great in vanilla, and maybe in TBC, i give that. And mainly because nothing better was possible ~10 years ago. Time flies, technology change and evolve, and old solutions become obsolete. People too stubborn to realize that can scream and spam all they want, but it can't change reality. 

It was hard to watch, but it still shattered all viewership numbers. 

 

WoW was an esport and was a part of ESL, MLG, WSVG, CGS, BLIZZCON, all as the most viewed game in each of those leagues at the time. 

 

It's also silly to compare overwatch to WoW because the esport scene was much smaller when WoW existed than now that overwatch exists.  Back when WoW existed it was very hard to stream for a large viewership it was a feat to get 30k concurrent viewers without lag on a stream, compared to the post-LoL boom with sites like twitch.tv where they can handle a million+ concurrent viewers now, but at the time WoW existed as a serious esport it obliterated all esports numbers and no other game was even remotely close to matching it in viewership.

 

I highly doubt you achieved high rating in WoW, so you are probably a bit jaded.  To me it's really simple, WoW was the standard for mmorpgs for 10 years, it attracted the most skilled players and had the highest competitive population of any mmorpg, if people are good at pvp mmos they would have at least tried it out to see how they fared, and any half-decent pvper could have achieved at least a rating of 2200 in the first couple of expansions.  If someone wasn't even able to achieve that, in the game with the most competition, then they generally just aren't very good at mmorpg pvp, sorry.

 

Those that have experienced a lot of mmorpgs and pvped at a high level in all of them are very credible when talking about mmorpg combat, but those that avoided the most competitive mmos did so for a reason, it's because they couldn't handle the competition.

 

WoW has many flaws, but it was a popular game and still is because it is easy to learn hard to master.  Those that never mastered it simply have no clue what it takes to master it. 

 

That all being said, I am glad artcraft went the way they did, this will provide familiarity and freedom in movement that the best mmorpg pvp players (wow players) can enjoy without feeling like they are playing a game with an inferior system, while also upping the skill-ceiling with reticle based action combat.  This gives crowfall amazing potential.  This is exactly what I hoped for when ACE said they wanted to take good ideas from the past, but also marry them with good ideas from the present.  Free movement + requiring aim = win.

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I To me it's really simple, WoW was the standard for mmorpgs for 10 years, it attracted the most skilled players and had the highest competitive population of any mmorpg, if people are good at pvp mmos they would have at least tried it out to see how they fared, and any half-decent pvper could have achieved at least a rating of 2200 in the first couple of expansions.  If someone wasn't even able to achieve that, in the game with the most competition, then they generally just aren't very good at mmorpg pvp, sorry.

This explains a lot.

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This explains a lot.

I think it explains more when someone claims that combat isn't the most important part of this game despite the creative director saying it was many times.

 

Let alone the fact that even if the director never said that, it should have been plainly obvious anyway.

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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To be fair, WoW pvp took the most overall skill out of any MMORPG to date.

 

I really have to disagree with this. I think WoW pvp was good for what it was and that was a system that allowed less hardcore gamers to jump into pvp and have fun.

 

You can't have the highest skill system with tab targeting and no FF. Either Darkfall games had a higher skill ceiling than WoW. Even if you don't like Darkfall combat, it is much harder than WoW.

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I really have to disagree with this. I think WoW pvp was good for what it was and that was a system that allowed less hardcore gamers to jump into pvp and have fun.

 

You can't have the highest skill system with tab targeting and no FF. Either Darkfall games had a higher skill ceiling than WoW. Even if you don't like Darkfall combat, it is much harder than WoW.

Where WoW makes up ground with tab-target and no FF compared to darkfall is that WoW required much more rapid thinking and a wider consideration of a large pool of instant cast spells.

 

WoW just simply had more variables to factor in than darkfall and with its huge competitive scene it attracted more skillful gamers, throw on top of that the esports aspect of it and it just accentuates it that much more.

 

I prefer darkfall system overall, but darkfall was a poor implementation by a low budget company, it had the potential to be more skillful, but it wasn't in its implementation.

 

Just like crowfall has the potential to take more skill than WoW, but if they don't build things properly that potential will be squandered. 

 

It just all goes back to the fact that WoW was the standard for mmos ever since it came out, any truly competitive pvper is going to look for the game with the most competition to see how they fare, people that stick to small ponds are doing so for a reason, and it isn't because they are grizzled pvpers looking to test their limits.

 

WoW has a ton of flaws with it, and there are a few people on these forums with the credibility to share their experience with regards to those flaws, but generally it's trendy for small pond players to hate on the big giant WoW, despite themselves never being able to achieve high rating in the standard game of the last decade+.

 

Like I said before, I am just glad ACE is taking the good from the old and marrying it with the good from the new.  I projected that the combat would need to go this direction over a year ago  I'm glad it's going that direction finally.

 

There are plenty of games that take way more skill than WoW, they just aren't MMORPGs, no MMORPG has implemented PvP in a way that required a higher skill-ceiling than WoW.  Dragon Nest for example had a tremendous skill-ceiling, but that's not really a true MMORPG.

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I dont know VikingNail, it looks like your main point is WOW had a lot o players therefore its combat is the best out there.

 

I like fast combat but right now it is just a jump fest. There is no sense of distance or positioning. You dont have that feeling of control of the fight, in group fight there is no order. Nobody engage an opponent, you just go and slash whoever pass by you.

 

Dont get me wrong i have seem coordinate groups but not a single time i saw people taking control of the fight. like people designing targets or people using rotations to bring people down. People just cant observe and plan the fight.

 

Look i am ranger, i like watching the fight progress. Giving support where it is needed. I like having to watch my surrounding to see if someone will desingage the front lines and come for me. But this is impossible right now.

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I dont know VikingNail, it looks like your main point is WOW had a lot o players therefore its combat is the best out there.

 

I like fast combat but right now it is just a jump fest. There is no sense of distance or positioning. You dont have that feeling of control of the fight, in group fight there is no order. Nobody engage an opponent, you just go and slash whoever pass by you.

 

Dont get me wrong i have seem coordinate groups but not a single time i saw people taking control of the fight. like people designing targets or people using rotations to bring people down. People just cant observe and plan the fight.

 

Look i am ranger, i like watching the fight progress. Giving support where it is needed. I like having to watch my surrounding to see if someone will desingage the front lines and come for me. But this is impossible right now.

It's all a matter of perspective, why are the best soccer players revered?  Because they are the creme de la creme of a competitive sport that countless people try to master. 

 

Same think with WoW PvP, not only did it have a high skill-ceiling, it had millions of players trying to get to the top, no mmorpg has come close to having that amount of competition. 

 

I don't really see current combat as a jump fest, to me it is still relatively slow, this is where the matter of perspective comes in. 

 

Crowfall won't be for everyone, but combat needs to have a high skill-ceiling or it will flop as a pvp game. 

 

The structure you seek and the chaos you see right now is also due to the quality of testers, the testing pool is relatively small, you aren't going to get the best most coordinated groups at this stage of testing.  Once you do you will see much more tactical play, and on top of that if they add FF you are really going to see a completely different level of coordination and structure to how fights visually look.

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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