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cloudfly

If you have passive training on and offline, incentive to play?

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Obviously CrowFall mirrors real life hunger. Thats the reason i get out of bed, food, and now its the reason to play Crowfall, so i can get cooking required pine-nuts from trees, then eat them to fill up a chicken leg.

 

Blair is shoving incentive to play down our throats, literally! I cant get enough!


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I think the dust that drops from ore etc should be little XP orbs that give you alittle bit of XP that you can allot into skills. have an XP pool that is able to collect the XP orbs and oyu can spend it on whatever skills you want. But not make it game breaking. Just a small amount based on a percentage. 0.01% of total training level per orb or something. it doens't have to be much

 

 i REALLY like this, don't change the ingame benefits of dust keep them the same

 

but just have each dust orb subtract 10 seconds from the amount left to train on each skill training bar you are working on at the time

 

(or 5 seconds, or 30 seconds, etc, doesn't matter - was just thinking of the concept not necessarily the exact amount of time off training that would be optimal)

 

If you are training a tier 8 skill and need hours and hours for one point, grabbing ten dust orbs on your next 5 trees harvested is going to just knock off a couple minutes.  This isn't enough extra active training to make a large dent in the passive training time, but just enough to encourage actually playing just one main - after a few months he will be slightly ahead (in that one area of specialization) of the fella/gal with 4 accounts

 

i'm sure the multi-account peeps may not like this idea (and I am a multi account user) but would seem a decent trade off

 

edit: spellcheck

Edited by coach

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 i REALLY like this, don't change the ingame benefits of dust keep them the same

 

but just have each dust orb subtract 10 seconds from the amount left to train on each skill training bar you are working on at the time

 

(or 5 seconds, or 30 seconds, etc, doesn't matter - was just thinking of the concept not necessarily the exact amount of time off training that would be optimal)

 

If you are training a tier 8 skill and need hours and hours for one point, grabbing ten dust orbs on your next 5 trees harvested is going to just knock off a couple minutes.  This isn't enough extra active training to make a large dent in the passive training time, but just enough to encourage actually playing just one main - after a few months he will be slightly ahead (in that one area of specialization) of the fella/gal with 4 accounts

 

i'm sure the multi-account peeps may not like this idea (and I am a multi account user) but would seem a decent trade off

 

edit: spellcheck

 

No thanks.  You have to understand the nature of the beast you're dealing with.  These people are not your average PVE play for fun players.  This is not a rabble of mindless Orcs. These are Uruk-hai. Their armor is thick and their ...  never mind.  

 

The truth is that any tiny advantage will be exploited.  No matter how minor you make "harvesting gets you xp", people will grind that progression deep into their own grave and hate it the whole time.  We are competitors that will do anything to win. 

 

A question of "what's the incentive to play" is almost laughable.  This is a game of war and conquest, both of which require preparation far beyond character skill.  Not least of all, player skill through experience is likely to be the major determining factor. 


Maj, Keeper of Da Plank - The Shipwrecked Pirates

 

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No thanks.  You have to understand the nature of the beast you're dealing with.  These people are not your average PVE play for fun players.  This is not a rabble of mindless Orcs. These are Uruk-hai. Their armor is thick and their ...  never mind.  

 

The truth is that any tiny advantage will be exploited.  No matter how minor you make "harvesting gets you xp", people will grind that progression deep into their own grave and hate it the whole time.  We are competitors that will do anything to win. 

 

A question of "what's the incentive to play" is almost laughable.  This is a game of war and conquest, both of which require preparation far beyond character skill.  Not least of all, player skill through experience is likely to be the major determining factor. 

yeah i'm not arguing for the people who need an incentive to play, it's why i snipped out the part of the OP quote that I thought had merit

 

i was simply speaking of a way to allow the one account owners to not feel that the multi-guys like me are P2Winning (even if their feelings are wrong) if they are getting just a smidge ahead by the dust subtracting some time from their training

 

i actually love the passive training 100% because i can play other games too (Star Citizen, CoElyria, etc) if my guild is in between campaigns and not feel like I am losing anything here

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I am obviously NOT talking about 20k tries of top quality high end armour with good rolls on experimentation on every step, but some meh armor that is still way better than going naked, which you then have to begin making after that 2 week are over for your guild since you just starting playing and wont have the mats for anything better, where the other guild/faction that have crafters and gatherers from the start might begin actually working towards really good armor so you will be behind the curve by far that way (not to mention 2 weeks in the first campaigns likely out of spring which is the season that is most plentiful in resources, and depending on the length of the campaign, maybe even getting close to if not into fall, where resources really begin to fall off in availability, so even though you have more skill when you start playing, that is most likely more than set off by the later and in terms of resources worse off seasons of the first campaign, greatly diminishing your guild/side chance of wining meaning you get to export less out, and thus have less/worse stuff to bring into the next campaign

Have all the people in this discussion totally missed the BP system being put in place?

 

To make one awesome weapon

 

 

Step one, Craft a metal bar of the materials you want the bonus for and get an Awesome success.

Step two, make a BP of that bar.

Step three, make 100 copies of the Awesome Success bar using a Thrall.

(If you really want to go all out for mass production, make one Awesome Success bar BP for each place you can drop a resource in.)

Run an assemble.

If Awesome success, make a BP of that.

If less than awesome success, you have a decent but not great item to equip the team

If failure, say goodbye to 1/100 possible items in the run.

 

Lather/rinse/repeat until Awesome Success BP is made, hand off production to your best thrall.

Profit.

 

You can start that process with no training, as an "Awesome success" on low end material is better than a "Great Success" on higher quality material. Well worth the risk of pushing basic team gear with lowest end mats onto new crafters in a new world, in order to save high end crafter thrall time for the best items.

 

Also, my guess is that BP's are also something that can be sold, so I would expect any "Awesome Success" BP's will be worth something, regardless of the basic mats required, so new crafters could start being productive by maxing thrall management training first, and building BP's out of whatever mats they can scavenge.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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 i REALLY like this, don't change the ingame benefits of dust keep them the same

 

but just have each dust orb subtract 10 seconds from the amount left to train on each skill training bar you are working on at the time

 

(or 5 seconds, or 30 seconds, etc, doesn't matter - was just thinking of the concept not necessarily the exact amount of time off training that would be optimal)

 

If you are training a tier 8 skill and need hours and hours for one point, grabbing ten dust orbs on your next 5 trees harvested is going to just knock off a couple minutes.  This isn't enough extra active training to make a large dent in the passive training time, but just enough to encourage actually playing just one main - after a few months he will be slightly ahead (in that one area of specialization) of the fella/gal with 4 accounts

 

i'm sure the multi-account peeps may not like this idea (and I am a multi account user) but would seem a decent trade off

 

edit: spellcheck

 

Would prefer you have to chose, dust for currency OR xp.  The full time players are definitely going to be building out a very expensive to maintain in taxes EK world.

 

Make them pick.

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Would prefer you have to chose, dust for currency OR xp.  The full time players are definitely going to be building out a very expensive to maintain in taxes EK world.

 

Make them pick.

 

You could make it both in your inventory, trade it as currency or use it to reduce current skill training time.

 

You could even combine it with my idea for a cap on how much "active training" you could do by saying, you can only consume X amount of dust per day. And keep that number fairly low so that casual players can keep up.

 

Overall I like the idea provided dust drops are overall balanced among different playstyles. PVP / PVE / Harvesting

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I can do that right now in any number of games that has pvp...

 

Why would I want a thirdperson mmo fps? because thats essentially what it is.

 

if there is no way to be unequal. then no one will strive for anything.

 

socialism doesn't work. making everyone equal is not fun.

 

I don't beleive Crowfall is going to support the "everyone being equal" model.  It's NOT going to be an FPS where everyone grabs the EXACT types of gear off a loadout station.  There is more to the game than an FPS or recycling MOBA it seems.

 

I'm more in favor of eliminating PvE Farmville grinds for "charactger capability".  I get the sense that some folks want some kind of active training boost to facilitate Farmvilling past people and Time.  Fair enough.  That's less "feeling engaged" in the game and more wanting to cut past time constraints.

 

I'd rather be in a CW poisoning a food cache, or trying to make a successful escape from an ambush or pulling off my own ambush.

 

"Farmville" . . . should be avoided at all costs in CF IMO.

 

Your complaint about "If no one is unequal then no one will strive for anything" is, to me, a great fallacy: 

  • One of the issues I have with "farmvilling" games is that it patches over and falsifies (for lack of a better way to put it) what is unequal between human players.  I've met many players in a multitude of games who weren't particularly good, had lousy situational awareness, completely predictable . . . but "dominated" a whole lot of people around them because they had the gear/stats/levels.  They ground it up, a lot of other people "weren't equal" to them . . . . but the dynamic FALSIFIED, or propped up, the issue of dominance.  In those games it was legitimate game play of course, so they were simply playing the cards everyone was dealt.  Never the less, you get my point.

If we now consider this discussion in CF I might suggest your statement about everyone being equal so no one will strive for anything in the following light:  No HUMAN is equal.  In awareness, physical/finger dexterity, reaction time, mental capacity for strategy/tactics/anticipation, leadership skills (or not), patient vs not so much so, etc.

 

This means your concern over "everyone being equal" is already taken care of in the most fundamental way that transcends the game itself.  What remains is how the chemical mix of HUMANS on the field melds, mixes, and flows.

 

You are going to have two mindsets that decide which camp you are in (well, maybe three if you include Gold Seller / IRL money makers who's incentives come from external-to-the-game motivations):

 

"I measure my Progress in the game by numbers I get from grinding.  I like to Farmville my PvP capability" (assuming the game mechanics allow that of course)

 

or

 

"I measure my Progress in the game by how successful I have been against others in (insert strategic / tactical goals and missions here)"

 

No one is "going to be equal", even if we drop-shipped in some Tribes 2 Equipment Stations from like a decade + ago and EVERYONE picked static / same gear from an available list.  

 

If ACE does it right Advantage vs Disadvantage will likely exist to some degree (as it should) based on gear and who's been playing longer versus shorter.  But the principal component to your "progress" and motivation to play this game should be how YOU improve, grow, learn, adapt, pick the right guild/team mates, and your actions - and the consequences or results of said actions.

 

"But then why have gear at all?", you ask:  I'm not going to repeat my GW 1 speech again except to say:  In that game there was gear, better gear, and best gear, and people DID work to progress their gear profile because, in practical terms, there were Advantages to do so.  Calibration Point:  No character stat packing, but a slight increase in AR values if I remember correctly.

 

People got the gear because there was advantage to do so + cosmetic differences.  But the gear DIDN'T carry the player. Advantage based on gear wasn't over-the-top, but rather a gentle progression from one to the other.

 

So it's entirely possible to have full interest in gear . . . without it scaled to the point PvP capability is principally gear driven and secondarily player driven.

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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then why have gear at all?

....because it allows you to further customize your play style?

 

You realize you literally just made the argument, "if how awesome my pants are doesn't matter more than how good I am at playing the game, why does the game even have pants?"

 

ARGUE BETTER.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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This equates to if you dont like the country go live somewhere else.

 

it's fallacious argument by dismissal as if my concerns are unfounded and without merit.

"If you don't like this video game, play another video game instead."

"If you don't like this country, abandon everyone you know and love and move thousands of miles to another one."

 

Yeah, that seems like a good comparison.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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If you have passive training for offline and online play, what incentive do I have to play 1 account instead of buying 3 or 4 and leveling up everything I need?

 

I think the dust that drops from ore etc should be little XP orbs that give you alittle bit of XP that you can allot into skills. have an XP pool that is able to collect the XP orbs and oyu can spend it on whatever skills you want. But not make it game breaking. Just a small amount based on a percentage. 0.01% of total training level per orb or something. it doens't have to be much

 

if that doesn't work, then come up with your own ideas but there needs to be an incentive to play my character. Why should I be equal to someone who never plays the game at all?

The short answer to your question is, if you don't have to log in and do specific activities in order to play the game, the incentive to log on is to PLAY THE GAME HOWEVER YOU WANT.

 

Passive systems give you that ability. The incentive to play the game is to play the game.

 

You're looking at a fundamental difference between classic RPGs and classic FPS games, here. In a classic RPG, the people who grind specific actions forever and ever are always going to be monumentally stronger than the newcomers, to the point of being an insurmountable challenge in a 1 on 1 fight. In a classic FPS, everyone is given the same set of tools with no meaningful ability to customize them that everyone else doesn't also have access to at any time, and player skill is the only differentiating factor.

 

This game is striving to fall somewhere between the two, giving you some of the aspects of an RPG - primarily via gear and a passive skill system - without making those factors completely overrule player skill.

 

In other words, in a duel between two equally skilled players in the same archetype with one having significantly better gear, the better-geared player will win most of the time, while in a duel between unequal opponents where the worse player has better gear, the better player will win most of the time. If more skill = more winning, the system works.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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20000+ tries? seems like you need only one minute per try to craft something including its ingredients, always have enough ingredients and play 24/7... 2 weeks is about 20000 minutes... i really wonder how you do 20000 tries of crafting in the first weeks if that means 2 weeks of pure gaming time crafting. in the alpha forums, it looks more like it needs a half an hour to get basic equipment with potions. thats far away from 20k crafts in some weeks without skill. you dont even get the ressources to be perma crafting in the beginning unless you have 20 harvesters per crafter.

I think his point was that for every week you spend not logging on at all, everyone who has been logging on has a chance to do SOMETHING, while you get to do NOTHING. Also, the point of the game is supposed to be to play the game. When did that become a bad goal?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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I think his point was that for every week you spend not logging on at all, everyone who has been logging on has a chance to do SOMETHING, while you get to do NOTHING. Also, the point of the game is supposed to be to play the game. When did that become a bad goal?

You are correct that was exactly my point there

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I think his point was that for every week you spend not logging on at all, everyone who has been logging on has a chance to do SOMETHING, while you get to do NOTHING. Also, the point of the game is supposed to be to play the game. When did that become a bad goal?

because the game is not fun in any way as a crafter with no skills in the first weeks. its a game that tells me to do annoying stuff where everything i do has a failrate of 90% unless i do it some weeks later. playing for a week and having the same result after playing 10 hours if you play one hour 2 weeks later is not what i call fun as a crafter/min-maxer.

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because the game is not fun in any way as a crafter with no skills in the first weeks. its a game that tells me to do annoying stuff where everything i do has a failrate of 90% unless i do it some weeks later. playing for a week and having the same result after playing 10 hours if you play one hour 2 weeks later is not what i call fun as a crafter/min-maxer.

I guess 25% is equal to 90% in your math. And pre-alpha is also the same as a live release in your...game..world, I don't even know.

 

You're making sweeping assumptions about how the game will work based on unfinished modules that aren't all running at the same time. I don't know what to tell you to change your mind if that statement isn't enough to give you pause.

 

Pre alpha

 

IS

 

NOT

 

THE GAME


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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because the game is not fun in any way as a crafter with no skills in the first weeks. its a game that tells me to do annoying stuff where everything i do has a failrate of 90% unless i do it some weeks later. playing for a week and having the same result after playing 10 hours if you play one hour 2 weeks later is not what i call fun as a crafter/min-maxer.

This is likely to change. Also it's seems reasonable. You are a novice crafter, you should fail at almost everything you make. But you think that means everyone will be walking around naked for a week. Na, the real crafter will put up with the challenge to get gear for themselves, friends and guild mates. Tbh the higher tier gear when fully leveled should be as hard to make as basic gear is underleveled or somewhere close to it. For a aspect of a game to be fun there must be some kind of conflict. Where's the fun when you know you have a 100% chance to get what you want?

Edited by silhaku

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This is likely to change. Also it's seems reasonable. You are a novice crafter, you should fail at almost everything you make. But you think that means everyone will be walking around naked for a week. Na, the real crafter will put up with the challenge to get gear for themselves, friends and guild mates. Tbh the higher tier gear when fully leveled should be as hard to make as basic gear is underleveled or somewhere close to it. For a aspect of a game to be fun there must be some kind of conflict. Where's the fun when you know you have a 100% chance to get what you want?

Also to note is with the relative high fail chance at start the crafters are likely to keep the good gear for themselves first, so I wouldn't be too surprised if at the start the crafters might be the better ones statwise off compared to the pure fighters

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Where's the fun when you know you have a 100% chance to get what you want?

There are people that like RNG and those that dont. I, personally, would clearly prefer needing 200 bars of iron for a helmet and knowing 100% that i get something useful than needing 50 bars and having a 50% chance to get something useful. And yes, although with the second way i have a chance for 4 iron helmets and although the chance to get at least one is pretty high. I just really dislike RNG for the sake of it. And it doesnt really make much sense either from the POV of the crafter. I either have the skill to craft an item or i dont.

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There are people that like RNG and those that dont. I, personally, would clearly prefer needing 200 bars of iron for a helmet and knowing 100% that i get something useful than needing 50 bars and having a 50% chance to get something useful. And yes, although with the second way i have a chance for 4 iron helmets and although the chance to get at least one is pretty high. I just really dislike RNG for the sake of it. And it doesnt really make much sense either from the POV of the crafter. I either have the skill to craft an item or i dont.

You are wrong on so many levels. It doesn't have to be RNG based but the standard for crafting in MMOs have been get the mats and make the gear with getting the mats being the majority of the labor. In CF crafting and gathering is suppose to be two different gameplay experiences of there own. Where's the gameplay at when there is no way to lose? For crafting to have some sort of depth it needs a system with definitive wins and losses. There are so many people against the mini-game aspect that actively crafting things seem to be out of the question. I guess they can take more of a realistic take and have you bang away at a hot piece of steel until its just right but something tells me that will be tossed into the mini-game pile also.

 

So how do you lose as a crafter? What are you actively doing to make sure your projects come out right? Right now nothing, the simplest way to do this is to base it off of RNG. And also, skilled craftsmen even messes up from time to time. So you may have the skills but that still doesn't guarantee a 100% chance at success. Otherwise we wouldn't be haven't bugs in games like this would we?

Edited by silhaku

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if i crafted a weapon with materials irl and failed crafting it, i would still have the ressources to try again. in case of metallic weapons/armour, i would have used some coal and that would be burnt now, but the metal would still be there. i would always get a result an if the result would not please me because i failed producing what i want, i could smelt it again and try again until i succeed. that you lose all ressources on a fail is just annoying. not resonable in any way. what you should lose as a crafter if you lose is time. the time you used to produce some item should be wasted if the result is not good enough for you or your customer. you should still be able to do changes or smelt the piece of metal and try again.

 

if i were to produce a pizza, the only thing that ever fails is, that i forget it and it converts to coal. so for food, having your result be a fail and the process not repeatable may make sense. for metallic stuff, its unreasonable.

 

RNG is nearly always the simplest way to do those things. and its the way i hate the most. that wont change how its done, it will just change how much i like the crafting in crowfall, which was the second most interesting thing for me of the whole game.

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