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keiotyk

Druid game play is tedious

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Druid is meant for group play, not solo

 

This argument could be made for just about every archetype and you'd be right. The problem with druid isn't that it's "made" for group play (as supports are supposed to be). It lacks true adaptation due to how essence works; which is one of the primary attributes I'd associate with a support. Regardless of what people say aurora emitter deserved to be nerfed, it was way too powerful considering the amount of effort that went into using it. However I would have preferred them to simply change it from a sticky "curse" like spell to a large ground-targeted aoe denial spell. Besides that the lighting combo was completely ridiculous. I could chunk half of someones bar away with 1 button pretty consistently. No archetype, especially a support, should be able to do that.

 

Leggos don't even come close to that type of damage, they just chase and grind you down slowly.

 

Even after the support power nerf I think the leggo would outperform the druid. It's dependable. The druid requires too much setup and is burdened by essence and when it's not, has to deal with long cool downs.

Edited by helix

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The essence system is perfectly fine as it is. Druid is meant for group play, not solo. If you're healing no one just to build essence to nuke people, you're most likely not making the best of the situation. If you're nuking the air just to lower essence to be able to heal someone you're also probably not making the best of the situation. The core mechanic of essence management is fine as it is. 

 

 

Why then is one of the few people who agreed with you in defending the Druid, spamming heals on no one at the start of this fight so they can nuke people?

 

https://youtu.be/J0qvGgy6Yns

Edited by Leiloni

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Why then is one of the few people who agreed with you in defending the Druid, spamming heals on no one at the start of this fight so they can nuke people?

 

https://youtu.be/J0qvGgy6Yns

I would say Tinnis didn't make "the best of the situation," as Rikutatis said. Those orbs would've been better placed somewhere in the field in which the battle took place.


Hi, I'm moneda.

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I only started with the current pre-alpha, so I can't claim to be speaking from massive amounts of experience of the game or on druid.

 

That said, I have to agree with the view that having to do 'useless' things in order to get access to what you want is a bad idea on principle. Even if -- and I can certainly believe it -- a clever or skilled druid can find a use for almost every cast, and even though there are people comfortable doing that and having fun with it.

 

A clever or skilled druid is nothing more than an unskilled druid, plus some degree of talent for the game, plus some amount of general GvG/RvR/WvW experience, plus some amount of experience on druid specifically. People still need to be having fun even before they've learned how to maximise the benefit of every single cast, if they're going to last long enough to join the ranks of the skilled.

 

Additionally, the game is also supposed to be fun for solo roamers/scouts and FFA players in the dregs, who, if they're not paid up on their subs, might not necessarily have the option to swap to a different archetype. Even though this is a group-focused archetype in a group-focused game, 1v1 still matters to the overall experience. 

 

One thing I definitely can't believe is that the system couldn't be improved without making the druid boring to people who are already comfortable with the existing system. And pre-alpha and alpha are the right sort of time to be iterating on these things, rather than sailing into beta with an iffy core mechanic for one of the game's archetypes.

 

As an aside, I also find it weird to have a stat named 'essence' that's presumably supposed to represent you borrowing from the raw life force of gaea and then have it be what fuels destructive magic instead of healing, but that's just aesthetics, and it could just be me.

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Why then is one of the few people who agreed with you in defending the Druid, spamming heals on no one at the start of this fight so they can nuke people?

 

https://youtu.be/J0qvGgy6Yns

 

I would say Tinnis didn't make "the best of the situation," as Rikutatis said. Those orbs would've been better placed somewhere in the field in which the battle took place.

 

I expected the other group to rush us and that we would fight around the resource node.

 

I was both building essence before the combat even began while additionally creating a healing cache for group to use in the up coming fight.

 

(e.g. stating "go to the node for orbs if you need them")

 

If I had only wanted pure essence I would not of done that particular moveset.

 

However we decided to reposiiton for better visibility as they were not approaching us.

 

I then started casting orbs on their group, with the intention to detonate them to force them to move

 

(but I got distracted by the duelists hiding in the water and they charged in before I could complete this move)

Edited by Tinnis

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if you have leveled the Tier 6 Druid skill the orbs last quite a long time... also tossing orbs about the potential battlefield just prior to engagement in a solid pattern will allow you to possible turn some of them to bombs and catch an enemy, granted that is not an easy task...  but the orbs are there as 3k plus heals each, even more with higher skills   if you 666 then drop 9 orbs you are below 50% essence and have 30K in heals on the field.   Problem teammates who pop the orbs before needing heals and other poor play issues are not on the druid, teams need to know how to work with and not against their druid...   lure/drag enemies into the bomb field if not hurt bad, take them if hurt.   Tossing orbs about isn't the only opener...   get essence contained and then give your fessor a 75% damage boost for over 10 seconds and you should get close to a kill right off on his #4 after stacking sin.   If a tank can have ability to do huge damage certainly the druid aurora emitter can be a sticky aoe... it is not OP if the target actually reacts is it? gets clear of his group and gets a legio heal...  Myrm Berzerk is still more powerful.   I think Druid is mostly played poorly with groups that have yet to meld with the playstyle...  Legio is just easier and more familiar in style... Druid heal burst can be pretty strong if you have solid battlefield awareness.

Edited by Frykka

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does your Druid have max orb life yet, have you increased total essence or resource or the burn threshold?   These skills will matter a lot in Druid play.

Edited by Frykka

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does your Druid have max orb life yet

Is that the projectile lifetime skill you talk about that does that or what? I dont see any skills that specifically say anything about orbs life time, and while I wouldn't think they were a "projectile" I guess they could be coded as one (Not quite got to that skill yet, went for the stamina increase in the top first to be able to harvest a bit more at a time)

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Why then is one of the few people who agreed with you in defending the Druid, spamming heals on no one at the start of this fight so they can nuke people?

 

https://youtu.be/J0qvGgy6Yns

Area control...  useful skill to master but certainly one of the hardest in the game.  Having a group that can manage the fight location is key, drawing the main enemy into the area of orbs without popping them (unless heal is needed and then calling out a stun so the druid can turn them with solid timing takes much group practice.

 

Nobody said Druid or Crowfall was easy mode.  There is still a lot of balance issues in all ATs and the essence design will not be changing before all launch archetypes are complete.   File this essence discussion for later but I think it is engaging and can go wonderfully right for you or horribly wrong...  particularly when lag inhibits tray swapping or you spam the swap not knowing which tray you will end in after the lag ends.


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Is that the projectile lifetime skill you talk about that does that or what? I dont see any skills that specifically say anything about orbs life time, and while I wouldn't think they were a "projectile" I guess they could be coded as one (Not quite got to that skill yet, went for the stamina increase in the top first to be able to harvest a bit more at a time)

Yes...  orbs are the only projectile that Druid skill could be giving lifetime to.  I was trying to time orbs pre-train and at 50% but got distracted by incoming...   and the never ending apple harvest

Edited by Frykka

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Why then is one of the few people who agreed with you in defending the Druid, spamming heals on no one at the start of this fight so they can nuke people?

 

Anyone who plays Druid and claims they don't spam abilities for no better reason than to build or burn essence so they are able to cast abilities they really want to use is telling a fib. Period.

 

@Frykka it's 75%, not 40% damage buff. Useful, but extremely situational.

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Yes...  orbs are the only projectile that Druid skill could be giving lifetime to.  I was trying to time orbs pre-train and at 50% but got distracted by incoming...   and the never ending apple harvest

I don't think so. Projectile lifetime is simply another way to say projectile range. You'll be able to cast from farther away.

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A lot of folks are complaining that they either need to waste heals or waste dps trying to switch modes

 

I suspect that this is an artifact of the test environment.

 

1.  Once we have more people online and large fights there will be more opportunities to spend those surplus heals / dps cycles

2.  Once folks have trained more deeply into their trees it looks like they'll have the opportunity to customer the druid as they wish


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I don't think so. Projectile lifetime is simply another way to say projectile range. You'll be able to cast from farther away.

I will check...   I stopped training projectile life to get more stamina and harvest more yummy apples  :-P


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I'm not saying you're never going to cast a useless spell to manage your essence, it certainly has happened to me in the past, but I am saying if you spend all your time casting useless spells to manage your essence you're doing it wrong. I don't consider myself a great druid, I haven't even played the class long enough to feel totally proficient with it, but I've seen good and bad druids play both with and against me since the days of HD, and the good ones certainly can get a lot more bang for their buck in terms of essence management. Instead of wasting healing orbs that are never used for anything just to build up essence for nuking as the OP suggested. 

 

I'm also not denying legio feels a lot more useful as a healer than a druid because he can heal nonstop, whereas the druid has to manage essence and heal in between. But I don't consider that as a fundamental flaw in the druid design, but rather as a temporary balance issue. If the druid had more unique utility to offer to a team to compliment his healing, something that is highly desirable and is not offered by the legio, that would offset that. Right now that doesn't exist IMO. Legio deals more damage and heals better. Druid brings practically nothing to the table in terms of group play by comparison. The lack of diminishing returns when stacking legios is also an issue. 

 

... Regardless of what people say aurora emitter deserved to be nerfed, it was way too powerful considering the amount of effort that went into using it. However I would have preferred them to simply change it from a sticky "curse" like spell to a large ground-targeted aoe denial spell. Besides that the lighting combo was completely ridiculous. I could chunk half of someones bar away with 1 button pretty consistently. No archetype, especially a support, should be able to do that.

 

This part I disagree with. Obviously I do agree the lightning combo damage was way too high, no denying that. But aurora emitter was perfectly fine and served a purpose to break melee stacks. Right now the damage is not high enough to fulfill that purpose properly. You say it took no effort into using it, but that's pretty much how most Crowfall combat powers work. Confessor #4 hitting for 20-30k takes no effort, Legio C heal takes no effort, Myrm berserk takes a little bit of awareness but not that much, etc. It's not like all other ATs have a high skill cap, but druid AE didn't. The ease of use is just how Crowfall combat seems to work now, save some uncommon exceptions. 

 

All of that I can agree with or at least wait for. The tray swap delay, while perhaps not a big deal in isolation, is a problem given the frequency with which it must be used (constant).

 

I know the devs said something about technical limitations regarding tray swapping. My own personal impressions on why tray swapping feels clunky relates mostly to server lag and lack of an animation cancel function on the tray swap. In a real fight situation, animations are long, server lag makes it even worse, and when you're pressured and trying to tray swap, the first time you hit it, it might not work, maybe because you're at the end of an animation, or lagging or whatever, and then you hit it another time, you end up tray swapping twice and going back to where you were, or nothing happens at all, etc. In ESO every class has 2 trays, but tray swapping feels very responsive (outside of laggy situations ofc) because it animation cancels whatever you were doing before and immediately takes you to the tray you wanted. Not sure if the same could be done for Crowfall though. 


 

 

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Animation cancelling on tray swap would be great. That's a good suggestion. A short input queue might feel better too. I'm sure you're right that the longer animations, GCD on the tray swap and lag all play a part in making the tray feel unresponsive and sometimes frustrating. Any improvement would be welcomed.

 

On the core design of having to use abilities you don't need to be able to use ones you do need, of course it's not always the case. It is, however, often the case. It really can't be minimized based on my observations and experience, except on huge, long fights. Even in those you'll often use abilities just to burn or generate essence when you really need to use an ability of a certain type. That's the design. I don't really like it, personally, but with a smoother tray swap it wouldn't feel as clunky. Tedious is an appropriate description in my opinion, and most of it revolves around a design that requires very frequent back and forth from one tray to another, on an instant's notice. The problem is that the swap is anything but instant in actual practice.

Edited by coolwaters

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Yes... if the swap was responsive and my battle group awareness was at top form I would know where my groups health was at in relation to my essence level and act appropriately to be proactive about needed heals or added damage.   The tray lag is probably the biggest issue I have had of late and the tray is not keeping up with my hand eye coordination.


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I think besides the tray swap delay (which definitely needs to go away), all other points raised in this thread are fruit of number tweaking and archetype balance that hasn't even been attempted yet.

 

 

Comparing Druid to Legio in gameplay won't get us anywhere. I do believe they have said even at the hunger dome that the brainless Legio heal is likely to go away, they just put it there to have a functional heal at the time, it wasn't even part of the initial class concept. It is likely to switch to a different class, or to go away entirely. Yeah, now Legio is way better and mroe reliable healer than the druid... who cares? The combat meta now is almost irrelevant.

 

People saying things like "if you practice or train this certain skill it will fix the issue" or "I am not a great druid but.."

 

Seriously, NO ONE is a great druid at this point. And even if you are, it won't matter in a few months, because the druid is likely to be a completely different class by then, and the way the archetypes relate or compliment each other will do a U turn, when they focus on actually getting the skills set the way they are supposed to with reasonable numbers. That part of the game has not arrived yet.

Edited by LGAllastair

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