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keiotyk

Druid game play is tedious

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So I've finally experienced a tiny amount of Druid PvP and I have to say, I do not like the Essence mechanic one bit. I have one question, perhaps answerable by those who are pro-Essence - what is the purpose of the mechanic?

 

It's there to limit the amount of healing / supporting a druid can do, and add 'faux' complexity. I actually think has the opposite effect. It makes the druid insanely easier to play, since the game is essentially deciding what you can do and when you can do it. It also disincentivizes the archetype as a support, since why would you want the druid that can support only some of the time over a legio that can support ALL of the time?

Edited by helix

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It's there to limit the amount of healing / supporting a druid can do, and add 'faux' complexity. I actually think has the opposite effect. It makes the druid insanely easier to play, since the game is essentially deciding what you can do and when you can do it. It also disincentivizes the archetype as a support, since why would you want the druid that can support only some of the time over a legio that can support ALL of the time?

 

I agree with most of this. I find it gimmicky in a way, the essence mechanic. I wouldn't mind it if the tray swap was very responsive though. I was thinking about it and perhaps it wouldn't feel as bad if the pool were larger as a base so the swap didn't have to be made so constantly.

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The way I see it is as follows - either it IS the case as those who favor the Essence mechanic maintain that it is, and it's a non-issue to manage once you are practiced enough with it and it does not limit or hinder you in any way, in which case it's purpose as a limiting factor is not lived up to, or it IS a constraint and requires you to cast things solely in one tray which you have no operational need for so as to be able cast what you do need from another tray, in which case the mechanic is too much of an artificial hindrance and functions as an in-combat mini-game at worst and a platform for manifesting benefits of skill training at best.

 

From my personal experience with it so far, it is a very poor and unnecessary governor which limits what the druid can do, dictates what is must do, and determines what it will do, when none of those things are necessary at all. It feels very much like someone felt a basic mana pool was just not interesting enough from a theoretical or thematic standpoint, and disregarded how the Essence mechanic would actually play out in practice. In a game where the sound of casting is a factor, where we will have mounts on which casting presumably is not possible, where group size is limited to 5 and AoEs are a significant part of the Druid's primary power list and the class has been assigned a support role - meaning it has to be more focused on others than itself and ready to take one of many possible actions at any time without knowing beforehand what that will be, to do damage/debuff or to heal/buff - this mechanic in my opinion is needlessly over-designed and artificial, excessively limiting and indeed controlling of one's play and disrupts flow to such a degree in an action-combat based system as to dominate one's concern over all other considerations...

 

I've played - more than played - Druid in games more times than I can count over the years, and have in some senses been married to it. That said, divorce is a thing, and faced with irreconcilable differences, it's not out of the realm of possibility.

 

I would urge ACE to take a closer look at what it is they intend to do, what it is they are actually doing, and consider if this is the best way to accomplish their design goals taking practical application in the final game into account. I can see myself getting to the point where having the right Essence state at the right time becomes far less requiring of effort, but it will never be effortless, and it would always take a greater portion of my focus than any mechanic should in a fast-paced action combat-based MMO.

 

Either it does next to nothing, it does too much, or it's presence isn't felt - all 3 of those scenarios beg the question; should the Essence mechanic exist at all?

 

It's there to limit the amount of healing / supporting a druid can do, and add 'faux' complexity. I actually think has the opposite effect. It makes the druid insanely easier to play, since the game is essentially deciding what you can do and when you can do it. It also disincentivizes the archetype as a support, since why would you want the druid that can support only some of the time over a legio that can support ALL of the time?

Edited by Anthrage

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So I've finally experienced a tiny amount of Druid PvP and I have to say, I do not like the Essence mechanic one bit. I have one question, perhaps answerable by those who are pro-Essence - what is the purpose of the mechanic?

 

The essence mechanic is, IMO, a very interesting way to transpose druid lore into actual gameplay. I won't get into the lore aspect of it here because I don't think that's what folks are concerned about in this thread. But from a strictly gameplay perspective it gives druid another dimension that other ATs don't have: he needs to manage his resource (essence) in the most effective way possible between support and attack, to get the job done. Obviously this is a hindrance. No other AT needs this level of resource management. And the problem IMO comes from the fact that this hindrance isn't coming with any other advantage atm. I think druid should feel powerful, his heals should be more impactful than a legio's heals (which they aren't, quite the opposite), because it takes more effort for him to heal. And also in terms of group play, druids should bring something unique to the table in terms of utility, which they aren't atm. Aurora emitter used to be that unique druid feature (along with orb bombing) until it got nerfed hard. 

 

I honestly feel druid is the most interesting AT in terms of game mechanics ACE has released so far and I find it a shame that so many people would rather druid be the same LMB spammer that almost every other AT is. Druid needs balance and fine tuning, but I really like the core mechanic. It's different, it requires you to play differently, think differently. Nothing wrong with that. When druid was released his damage value was too high. Certain adjustments were made to him, and many of them were unfortunate IMO. Powers that were already weak have been nerfed I don't know why, powers that were much more useful in the context of claustrophobic keep fights with root motion combat became a lot more useless in open field pvp with free movement combat. All that made the druid lose some of its appeal. More below. 

 

It's there to limit the amount of healing / supporting a druid can do, and add 'faux' complexity. I actually think has the opposite effect. It makes the druid insanely easier to play, since the game is essentially deciding what you can do and when you can do it. It also disincentivizes the archetype as a support, since why would you want the druid that can support only some of the time over a legio that can support ALL of the time?

 

I strongly disagree with this. The second part at least, about essence making the druid super easy to play. It's quite the opposite. Out of all the ATs, I feel like the gap between the best druids and the bad/mediocre druids is the greatest one by far. Even right now druid is not a weak AT at all. A druid can win pretty much any duel if she is played right. It won't be very glamorous and flashy like a fessor, but she can win them. She has a very peculiar bait them playstyle. The problem is that despite being a strong AT with insane high survivability and mobility, team sizes are small, only 5 per team. You need to fill those roles with dps, heal, CC and tankiness. Other ATs can fill those roles much better than the druid atm. She has no room in a 5-man team as it stands. She needs tweaking and adjustments. 

 

I do agree that the essence mechanic does hinder the amount of healing/supporting she can do. That's why I think her heals by default should feel more impactful and powerful than a legio's. Orbs are in a good place right now IMO, but the #3 and #4 AoE heals need to be adjusted. #3 needs to heal a lot more given the difficulty of landing it in a fast paced free movement fight, plus being channeled and on a high cooldown. And #4 needs to heal in a high burst, not over time as it is now, for the exact same reason. Maybe even increase its area a bit more. Aurora emitter needs to do the same damage it did before to give the druid a unique group role again, and maybe even the base damage could be increased a little as well. It was too high before, but now it's too low. I do more damage with my legio LMBs than a Druid's #2 combo. 

 

Just a little after thought: the best iteration of the druid IMO was when she was first released. Essence burn killed you very, very fast. It was unforgiving. Heals were kinda mediocre, but the damage was ridiculously high and lethal. It was very high risk, high reward. You could kill yourself in a couple seconds if not careful, but could wreck people if played well. It was unbalanced as hell, but super fun IMO. I feel like ATs that have a higher skill cap and higher risks should be more rewarding and output more as well. 


 

 

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From my, granted limited, time playing druid I actually enjoy the essence mechanic. I think the skill cap is actually so high and we haven't had enough time to really play the druid to full effect. The whole point of the essence system is not to be a reactive AT like a lot of other AT in the game, as well as the other support AT, but to be a proactive AT. It takes a lot of skill to see where the fight is going and adjust accordingly with your essence...It's keeping me very entertained. I don't feel limited one way or the other by the mechanic, and I'm not even good at it yet. I've found, and learned from other druids, that 25-30% essence is the sweet spot and allows plenty of space to go offensive or defensive as you predict the fight.

 

And looking at the druid skills in a vaccum, just for the sake of what they bring to the table, are pretty wild actually. You have a non-icd stun, two displacement abilities, 75% damage buff, 20k burst heals if you're coordinated with your group, 2 slows, ability that increases power CDs, an armor debuff, decent supporting damage, barkskin, etc. Like...It's a pretty awesome kit, and I've just scratched the surface of what you can do with it.

 

I really think, disregarding numbers, that both the essence mechanic and the druid kit allow for a super high skill cap...It's just that I think a lot of people haven't figured out how to take action proactively in fights yet. And granted that is hard atm with myrms hitting for 30-40k, fessors hitting the same amount, etc. After number balances I think the druid is pretty strong tbh

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The essence mechanic is, IMO, a very interesting way to transpose druid lore into actual gameplay. I won't get into the lore aspect of it here because I don't think that's what folks are concerned about in this thread. But from a strictly gameplay perspective it gives druid another dimension that other ATs don't have: he needs to manage his resource (essence) in the most effective way possible between support and attack, to get the job done. Obviously this is a hindrance. No other AT needs this level of resource management. And the problem IMO comes from the fact that this hindrance isn't coming with any other advantage atm. I think druid should feel powerful, his heals should be more impactful than a legio's heals (which they aren't, quite the opposite), because it takes more effort for him to heal. And also in terms of group play, druids should bring something unique to the table in terms of utility, which they aren't atm. Aurora emitter used to be that unique druid feature (along with orb bombing) until it got nerfed hard. 

 

I honestly feel druid is the most interesting AT in terms of game mechanics ACE has released so far and I find it a shame that so many people would rather druid be the same LMB spammer that almost every other AT is. Druid needs balance and fine tuning, but I really like the core mechanic. It's different, it requires you to play differently, think differently. Nothing wrong with that. When druid was released his damage value was too high. Certain adjustments were made to him, and many of them were unfortunate IMO. Powers that were already weak have been nerfed I don't know why, powers that were much more useful in the context of claustrophobic keep fights with root motion combat became a lot more useless in open field pvp with free movement combat. All that made the druid lose some of its appeal. More below. 

 

 

I strongly disagree with this. The second part at least, about essence making the druid super easy to play. It's quite the opposite. Out of all the ATs, I feel like the gap between the best druids and the bad/mediocre druids is the greatest one by far. Even right now druid is not a weak AT at all. A druid can win pretty much any duel if she is played right. It won't be very glamorous and flashy like a fessor, but she can win them. She has a very peculiar bait them playstyle. The problem is that despite being a strong AT with insane high survivability and mobility, team sizes are small, only 5 per team. You need to fill those roles with dps, heal, CC and tankiness. Other ATs can fill those roles much better than the druid atm. She has no room in a 5-man team as it stands. She needs tweaking and adjustments. 

 

I do agree that the essence mechanic does hinder the amount of healing/supporting she can do. That's why I think her heals by default should feel more impactful and powerful than a legio's. Orbs are in a good place right now IMO, but the #3 and #4 AoE heals need to be adjusted. #3 needs to heal a lot more given the difficulty of landing it in a fast paced free movement fight, plus being channeled and on a high cooldown. And #4 needs to heal in a high burst, not over time as it is now, for the exact same reason. Maybe even increase its area a bit more. Aurora emitter needs to do the same damage it did before to give the druid a unique group role again, and maybe even the base damage could be increased a little as well. It was too high before, but now it's too low. I do more damage with my legio LMBs than a Druid's #2 combo. 

 

Just a little after thought: the best iteration of the druid IMO was when she was first released. Essence burn killed you very, very fast. It was unforgiving. Heals were kinda mediocre, but the damage was ridiculously high and lethal. It was very high risk, high reward. You could kill yourself in a couple seconds if not careful, but could wreck people if played well. It was unbalanced as hell, but super fun IMO. I feel like ATs that have a higher skill cap and higher risks should be more rewarding and output more as well. 

 

I agree with a lot of this. Not all of it. Being different isn't a boon in-and-of itself. Yes, the constant back and forth - with an awkward set of pauses each and every time you swap, is a pain in the ass other ATs don't have to deal with. That's different, sure. So is having an extra nose growing out of your ear. That doesn't necessarily make the unique nose + ear combo a good thing.

 

However, I agree with you that, if the Druid is to suffer through the stuttery mess that the tray swap is, it should bring a real party to the table. With the several nerfs to AE from an enclosed environment like HD to what we have now in an open environment, Druid is now an afterthought that is also kind of a PITA compared to other ATs. Need a little burst in the next 5 seconds to finish off an enemy before the brain-dead "C" goes out? Too bad brother! You've just run out of essence and you've got a tray swap + several other things to do (for no good reason often) before you can do that. Need to shoot a wisp at that teammate who's just eaten a Myrm "C?" Too bad! You're loaded up on essence and that heal will burn you.

 

Yes, you can plan for a lot of these by maintaining a balance of essence, but combat in CF changes too fast with this slow, non-responsive tray swap to really anticipate the things you should be able to anticipate. If the tray swap could be made near instant, without the lock-outs, then it would feel as ACE intended, perhaps. Right now, it doesn't. It feels clunky and slow, even when everything works out well.

 

So I guess your implicit answer may be the best one Rik. Just buff AE back to where it was about 6 patches ago (maybe 50% more damage than current) and try to somehow trim the delay and lockout on the tray swap. Maybe make the max resource add nodes actually effect essence (doesn't seem to atm) and just increase the max essence pool overall a bit. AE is the party here. You're right. It's unique and it serves an awesome purpose in busting melee balls and stacks. At least it used to.

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AE emitter [not the direct damage] definately got over nerfed.

 

if they improve Wail to be the AoE DoT it is meant to be (and change the temp buff from current spark increase to something better) then that would be an interesting unique AoE DoT role

 

Your missing the insane unqiue utility that is nature's avatar though.

 

However it needs to have far greater feedback for the druid using it (e.g. seeing your allies damage nuimbers or boosted amounts while channeling) and needs a more impactful flow e.g. perhaps after channeling X seconds it leads to a combo or grants either the target or druid a temporary buff of some sort

Edited by Tinnis

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Your missing the insane unqiue utility that is nature's avatar though.

 

However it needs to have far greater feedback for the druid using it (e.g. seeing your allies damage nuimbers or boosted amounts while channeling) and needs a more impactful flow e.g. perhaps after channeling X seconds it leads to a combo or grants either the target or druid a temporary buff of some sort

 

I've used it a lot lately (largely thanks to some of your feedback, actually) and it is useful. It doesn't solve the problem though. It takes a long bus ride and makes it a short commute, but you're still stuck in traffic on your way to the party.

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I've used it a lot lately (largely thanks to some of your feedback, actually) and it is useful. It doesn't solve the problem though. It takes a long bus ride and makes it a short commute, but you're still stuck in traffic on your way to the party.

 

its good but boring as hell for the druid to even tell what is going on =)

 

lol 99m range too [before the 100m player model cut off]

 

will also make your targets slide!

Edited by Tinnis

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other unique utility includes:

 

farie fire: removing up to two targets at once's capacity to trigger ANY critical hits (including auto crit powers!) (also has armor break)
[30 second duration vs 12 second cooldown]

 

leeching seed: increase a target's power's cooldowns (+5 seconds if used during effect)

Edited by Tinnis

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@Tinnis do you find landing the "2" damage buff to be kind of sketchy in real combat situations? I often miss on the first attempt because Vectious is too damn impatient to hold still for a damn second.

 

edit: not Bear nuke kinda' sketchy. Just difficult.

Edited by coolwaters

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to not dublicate topics and do not make new, I would like to suggest changes on Gaea's Wail.

why? I thinks it is time since druid got huge nerf on dmg output and other range based archetypes released/get fixed

druid gameplay is pretty boring without nukes, especially farming. also, it is almost impossible to land hits with bear nuke.

 

so, I would like to see gaea's wail as traveling bear who are explode on unit(s) collision or if traveled on max distance.

CF already have such mechanics - Wicked winds. So all you need is abit change it.

another good fix would be some possibility to moving while casting it


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to not dublicate topics and do not make new, I would like to suggest changes on Gaea's Wail.

why? I thinks it is time since druid got huge nerf on dmg output and other range based archetypes released/get fixed

druid gameplay is pretty boring without nukes, especially farming. also, it is almost impossible to land hits with bear nuke.

 

so, I would like to see gaea's wail as traveling bear who are explode on unit(s) collision or if traveled on max distance.

CF already have such mechanics - Wicked winds. So all you need is abit change it.

another good fix would be some possibility to moving while casting it

I think the only thing bear needs is to be either charged faster, or have larger hit boxes than it has now. It's supposed to be your AoE move, and actually does decent damage when it can bounce.

 

I think druid gameplay needs to be more than nukes, but yah I agree that their 2-2-2 damage needs to be a little stronger to nuke

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The Bear would be fine if it were cast on the move and had a splash or larger hit box. 

 

As is an enemy can stand 5 meters away and just move laterally and they are extremely hard to hit. Bordering on luck.

 

That's a good point, I suppose the current bear animation was from when root-motion was more of a thing eh

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I really think, disregarding numbers, that both the essence mechanic and the druid kit allow for a super high skill cap...It's just that I think a lot of people haven't figured out how to take action proactively in fights yet. And granted that is hard atm with myrms hitting for 30-40k, fessors hitting the same amount, etc. After number balances I think the druid is pretty strong tbh

I think this is the problem for many that they just cant disregard the numbers, when at a pre-alpha state it is near impossible tomake a game even close to balanced, since new stuff are added all the time

 

Gotta agree something need done to the bear, is way too hard to hit, heck even NPC's can be tricky to hit with it sometimes

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Got in this weekend. Woot.

 

So like yeah. This druid mechanic Is arduous atm. I found myself spamming balls when heals weren't needed or spamming nuke bar LMB at nothing to try to manage the Essence. That's not fun.

I don't like being locked out of one or the other bar. Maybe just make the heal bar increasingly ineffective as Essence is gained. Also the DoT for hitting 80% will kill you crazy fast. My first instinct when I see my health going down is to heal. Oops that makes it worse.

 

I would think being able to kill a couple even con PVE mobs would be a reasonable starting off point for someone holding around 80% Essence. As many have pointed out if you like the mechanic that's fine but don't make the switching be necessary so often.

 

Also that Bear DoT is very hard to land.

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