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Yoink

So its come to this, another skill tree / character building post

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So there is a lot of discussion/debate on how character creation should be. These will be my issues and ideas with the current system based on the assumption that things will work they way I believe they are right now. I understand that not everything has been revealed yet. This post, like all the others is probably a giant waste of time. However,

 

It is my understanding that these are all the levels of character customization.

 

Basic skills tree (applies to your crow at an account level, when on any AT)

AT skills tree ( applies to your crow when on that AT)

Starting runes (applies to your character at creation, removed from the game when the game moved to 1 crow per account?)

Vessel (an 'item' you 'equip' to your crow, entering a vessel makes your crow a champion or knight or confessor etc.)

Disciplines/runestones (in game items that apply to your vessel? Grants your character unique stats, abilities, etc)

Gear (equipped to your vessel)

 

Assuming the above is correct there is a fair bit of concern. There is no real character customization/identity or character permanence. Skill tree training, as is currently provides no real choice or diversity. Everyone will be mostly the same and given enough time you will have everything. Starting runes are presumably out of the game. Vessels seem fine to me so far other than the fact that you can possibly not have the one you want to play? It seems that the majority of your characters uniqueness will come from disciplines. That is mostly ok but the current thoughts floating around is that disciplines are attached/tied/slotted into your vessel. So when you lose your vessel you lose the disciplines, thus going back to a basic confessor, champion, etc. and no longer being the weird or different build you have set out to be.

 

I would propose the following.

 

 

Skill trees-

I'd put a cap on how much can be trained. Come up with some sort of system to do this. X amount of skill points or X amount of hours can be used to train per AT. Make it so that the skills can be trained and then untrained to get back your points so you can try something different. Put it behind some sort of in game resource or time block if you have to so that respeccing isn't instant or without cost. Then we have a choice to make. Do I want the 10 cheap skills or do I want to go for the more costly ones? If there absolutely must be skills that you can get all of over time, maybe just the universal skills and cap the AT skills. Skills would persist between CW.

 

Vessels-

If you have to have a vessel to play then all need to be available at all times. What I would like to see is for there to be a 'base' vessel always available to you. Say you just lost all your stuff, your vessel broke or you just want to try out a druid for the first time. You should be able to hop into a blank vessel of that type. Think of what we have now in BW. This still leaves you able to have better and more powerful vessels like it is currently meant to be. Vessels would be reset going into each CW.

 

Starting runes-

These can still be implemented in a one crow / vessel system. My idea for this is that they would be at the account level for each AT but not tied to the vessel. You hop in your base vessel and you have x amount of points to spend on x amount of starting runes for that AT. Since we can not make new characters if we want to try something else put in a way to remove/replace them. Again, make it so that it is costly or timely to do so. Runes would be reset going into each CW.

 

Disciplines-

See above, exact same idea. I would really like to see something like this. If I want to play an int based proccing sundancing werewolf ranger, I don't want to have to go out and find, make, buy my runes (what makes my character my character, every 3 deaths.) Disciplines would be reset going into each CW

 

Gear-

Just make sure it matters enough that we always want it to be better. I really like the way gear is right now in BW and I hope to see a lot more effects on gear.

 

 

And one more thing. Please. Lots more abilities. Add them to the base AT, put them in starting or discipline runes, add them as an unlock in the skill trees. Something. Give me the choice of 25+ abilities even if I can't use them all at once.

 

 


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You could have runes be slot unlock in archetype training. That way you could always change runes but it won't dissappear when you die. It'd have to be a fairly early train though. Maybe a third dead end branch in the archetype training.

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Skill tree training, as is currently provides no real choice or diversity. Everyone will be mostly the same and given enough time you will have everything.

 

You know that it takes over a decade to get all of the skills at the current training times.That's assuming they don't add any more or make training take longer.

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You know that it takes over a decade to get all of the skills at the current training times.That's assuming they don't add any more or make training take longer.

 

That's the problem. The skills are currently inflated by how they are linked and by how long it takes to train them. Most of the skills are unnecessary and seem to exist only to take up time and create the illusion of progression. If you look deeper there is very little actual progression, only an artificial sense of time that is supposed to feel like robust character building when in actuality it feels very hollow. I would personally like more control over building my character than time. I think both can work. I like this suggestion because it allows for instant progression to play around with during initial character creation, but also gives the choice to invest into long term time based progression.

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That's the problem. The skills are currently inflated by how they are linked and by how long it takes to train them. Most of the skills are unnecessary and seem to exist only to take up time and create the illusion of progression. If you look deeper there is very little actual progression, only an artificial sense of time that is supposed to feel like robust character building when in actuality it feels very hollow. I would personally like more control over building my character than time. I think both can work. I like this suggestion because it allows for instant progression to play around with during initial character creation, but also gives the choice to invest into long term time based progression.

 

This is exactly how i feel about it atm, a illusion of progression, just time gated. I still think having some sorta trait system or being able to change the paths you go in the tree would be better.


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A lot of these concerns have already been voiced, particularly when they announced the crows and vessels systems.

 

A lot of your ideas sound like a matter of convenience, and would actually hurt the game imo.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Solid absence of reasoning VN.

I'm just glad you started to realize that combat is literally the most important part of the game.  Took you long enough, bud.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I agree with a lot of what Yoink says.  I have been saying this for a long time.  The way the skill trees are setup does not allow for experimentation or diversification.  Honestly, they would be better off going the SB route of things, you have your skill trees, you get x amount of points, you spend them along the paths you desire and they max in about 2 weeks.  Much like training points in SB.  That allows for so many more character builds.  Then you will also have the gear, vessel, and disciplines.  Having many crows rather than one crow would allow them to keep the vessel system, but allow for diversification in the skill trees.  I am reiterating a lot of Yoink said, but this would be a much better approach as it would allow new players to max a character more quickly and not get left behind. 

 

For example, if the skill trees actually do something, wouldn't a player who joins 2 years after launch be at quite a disadvantage until they have been playing for a few months to get their skill tree closer to the veteran?  Even still, he will never completely catch up until the trees are maxed.  

 

But wait the difference at that point in time would be next to nothing!  That would be true in its form now; however, now you have poked a hole in the ability to make yourself unique from others since your extra points in regen or whatever does almost next to nothing unless you passively grind that one skill path for a gratuitous amount of time.  If you shorten the time it takes to max your path (2 weeks lets say), two players could take the same exact paths and be equal in terms of skill trees due to only taking 2 weeks to max.  In my opinion, it makes a lot more sense to balance in the short term, rather than the long term.  That will make the skill trees have more meaning and allow for people to customize their builds further.

Edited by amazingtacoburito

 

Formerly known as - AmazingTacoBurito

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I think people are trying too hard to treat what is currently presented as an actual game, you don't know how people will actually spec yet, because you don't know how all of the systems will work together, what the numbers will be adjusted to, and what kind of meta and meta evolution will exist when most of the content is implemented and we actually have a game. 

 

Things may seem straight forward now, because they haven't added most of the variables.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Starting runes (applies to your character at creation, removed from the game when the game moved to 1 crow per account?)

The advantages and disadvantages are still planned. They said when they announced the crows and vessels system that they would be attached to the vessels.

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That's what Yoink (and most everyone) is complaining about.

 

Vessels are essentially glorified gear.

I understand that, just clarifying the current design.

 

I get that the idea is to make our choices matter more. In other games, some choices "matter" because the only way to redo them is to reroll. This game doesn't offer the option to reroll. Maybe they could add another layer between the account and the vessel where advantages, disadvantages and disciplines can be attached. Disciplines would be able to be changed as normal, but to change advantages and disadvantages, the player would have to reroll. The skills could still be at the account level. They could even add skills that enable each character to wear different vessels. For example, maybe you create a character, select advantages and disadvantages, then choice your starting archetype. You automatically get the skill points needed for that vessel. If you want to wear other vessels, you can train in the universal tree, or you can roll another character and select a different base archetype.

 

Once in the game, you can obtain disciplines and apply them, but they are attached to the character. The only problem with that is disciplines won't be as much in demand. Another option would be to attach the disciplines to the vessel, but make them permanent within the vessel, so if you want to change them, you have to get a new vessel.

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A "default vessel," that was inferior to crafted vessels world's allow the best of both worlds, right?

 

Or am I confusing myself now?

Right now, we can create multiple characters and the trained skills apply to all of them. What I'm suggesting is that we keep that, but also have vessels. So I create a knight, let's say. I choose my advantages and disadvantages. I enter the game and I have to find a vessel. I can automatically wear a knight vessel because that's what I chose at character creation, but I can't wear any other vessels until I train for them. I can roll a 2nd character, say a legionaire, and that character would only be able to wear a lego vessel until I train the rest. There would need to be some mechanism that bypasses the training for the default archetype, but that should be easy enough to code.

 

This would mean that advantages and disadvantages would be attached to the character, not the vessel. If you want to change them, you have to roll a new character. Skills are still at the account level. Disciplines could either be at the character level or the vessel level.

 

This would enable them to keep the extra character slots in the KS bundles. They could even sell additional character slots.

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A lot of these concerns have already been voiced, particularly when they announced the crows and vessels systems.

 

A lot of your ideas sound like a matter of convenience, and would actually hurt the game imo.

 

Right now the skill system is extremely convenient. Taking this into consideration you should be 100% against it since it's not "hard core" enough.

 

When you got time, can you put down your ak and pm your hardcore guild name in the most hardcore fashion possible. 

Edited by izkimar

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Right now the skill system is extremely convenient. Taking this into consideration you should be 100% against it since it's not "hard core" enough.

 

When you got time, can you put down your ak and pm your hardcore guild name in the most hardcore fashion possible. 

Yes and I have said passive skill system sucks already, but this is adding convenience onto an already convenient system.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Yes and I have said passive skill system sucks already, but this is adding convenience onto an already convenient system.

 

I think the passive skill system is awesome and I absolutely do not want to go back to a grind (macro) based system. What sucks for me personally is I don't want to wait around a year watching paint dry to feel like my character has advanced in any meaningful or unique way. The system right now isn't bad it just needs more personal touches that we have access to at the start. Too much carrot at the end of the stick when we don't even know if we like carrots yet.

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