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11/30/2016 - Myrmidon "Balance" Suggestion


th3gatekeeper
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To keep this short. ALL I have been playing is the Myrmidon. He instantly appealed to me the second I saw the class video. Its widely known that the Myrm is overpowered and is why you have roaming groups playing with multiple Myrms, and people making threads about doing tests without a Myrm. You also have an issue arising about macros and making one that holds "2" 15 seconds after pressing "6" to mitigate the crash.

I will also say that while the crash takes awareness, for high level/skill gamers its not a "difficult" thing frankly. I know thats the intent, making it difficult, but its really not and its why the Myrm is OP. Now, I have talked with several players who all have their version on how to balance the Myrm. Below is mine, that seeks to follow the acronym KISS (Keep it Simple, Stupid) 

My GOAL is to not only balance the Myrm, but make him more fun to play. 



CURRENTLY: Berserk gives you a nice damage bonus, and you heal for all damage applied to you - which is a mechanic designed to allow him to be a damage sponge. Since the Myrm is a tank, this is his form of "mitigation" so far it makes sense. Then, to balance the class all the saved up damage hits after 15 seconds. You can mitigate this by pressing and holding "2" OR using your "C" ability.

Not to shabby, and frankly a few small tweaks - like reducing the damage bonus, or increasing the CD on Berserk might just balance it enough. Frankly, Im not a huge fan that holding "2" mitigates the crash, and would rather see it tied to JUST "C" instead but then the Myrm loses some of his "damage mitigation" ability and makes him a sub-par tank.

MY PROPOSAL: Seeks to actually swap this whole thing on its head. Rather than your heart meter filling up DURING Berserk, it fills up OUTSIDE Berserk based on both incoming and outgoing damage. When you activate Berserk, rather than healing for damage taken, you gain damage resist, damage bonus, and lifesteal - based on how full the heart was.

So, to explain. You start combat off and have full HP, your Heart is empty. Say you take 20% of your HP as damage. Your heart meter might be 40% full. You activate Berserk and it gives you 40% of the max DR, 40% of the max damage bonus and your attacks get 40% of the max Lifesteal. 

So now the Myrm, in order to "heal" will be required to attack and hit his target. But he gains damage bonus - to aid in his self healing AND damage resist, to make him harder to kill while in Berserk. 

What this does is makes the Myrm stronger, the more damage he takes. SO if he is being focused down, he can use Berserk to make himself incredibly tanky and very powerful damage wise and self heal some. 

There would be no "crash" which I know is probably a cool idea, but I see liabilities with it, such as the Macro issue, and its really not a "tough" mechanic to use, which from a spectrum of players means the Myrm will EITHER be balanced for "average" players and OP with great players (what it is currently) or he will be BAD with average skill players and balance around high level players (Where I fear he is headed).

I would rather see this different type of mechanic, that is both "average" skill player friendly, and also balanced at high level play. It still accomplishes the same goals- giving damage mitigation for a tank class - without making it too strong. 

A player who is playing against a Myrm, would learn to avoid the Myrm when he uses Berserk - to avoid letting him heal, and obviously his DR is higher, and wait for it to expire to attack again, or just attack THROUGH the Berserk. 

It puts a good level of skill into the ability, making the Myrm have to choose WHEN to use Berserk rather than just spamming 6 anytime its off CD. I think this would be much more fun and balanced across all gamer types. 

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The only problem with Minos right now is the C is too strong, you can't interrupt their #2 with a stun or knock up, and the root is 8 seconds long and does not break on damage.

 

Berserk is fine, there is no need to change the mechanic.They have hard counters planned for the self healing anyways, they are just not in yet.  Also a champs mortal strike and fessors meteor also working against the self healing from the Mino right now.

"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

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Ok seriously, these forums need to chill a bit with the "nerf this, nerf that" threads.

 

I agree ATs are unbalanced atm and myrm is obviously overperforming compared to others. But only half the ATs have been released so far, and the game currently lacks 80% of the customization system. We don't know how things will interact with each other yet. 

 

More important, ACE has proven to have a very heavy hand when it comes to the nerf hammer. People complained about the champ quad-jumping, he got nerfed to the ground and has no mobility or survivability now. Kudos to the brave few out there still playing champ. People complained about druid damage, he also got nerfed to the ground and we lost the tactical gameplay element emitter had introduced to the game. Enjoy the melee death balls again. 

 

Just take a chill pill for now and learn how to counter the archetypes giving you trouble. Or else soon we'll have a neutered bull to keep the champ company in the reserve bench. 

 

 

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Berserk should only heal the amount of damage Mirm does. If he is smashing people left and right i can accept the immunity. A mirm wouldnt be a good match with other tanks.

 

I like how berserk works in general it has some good counters. For example i saw a video Markeedragon today where he does so much damage with his confessor 4 that the mino dies even with his berserk up. It was awesome! I though it was a bug at first but it shows that berserk can be a good mechanic.

Edited by BarriaKarl
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Is he or are there mechanics around him a bit broken?

 

Example is his root, if it broke on damage then it would be balanced. Another is his C, if the damage wasent front loaded but spread evenly across the 3 seconds it would be balanced, a chance to get away from the damage.

 

His berserk is tricky, his #2 key feels broken because even when interrupted it negates the crash. Blair intended that the berserk avoidance being skilled based, right now its almost dummy proof, just hold down a dumb button at the right time. If the crash prevention was balanced then berserk would be balanced.

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The CC, spike FPS and healing "knobs" need to be tuned together.

 

You can't have lengthy hard CC, and abilities (fessor 4/myrm C) that instant hit for 20% to 60% of a characters health, without having equally big heals.

 

If you nerf the mino/fessor spike dps, without nerf legio heals, nothing will die even with long CC.

 

If you nerf legio heals, without nerfing spike dps/cc, then ppl will just insta fall over in the first CC chain.

 

All 3 need tuning together, which is complicated and probably why ACE hasn't put any effort into it.

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Ok seriously, these forums need to chill a bit with the "nerf this, nerf that" threads.

 

I agree ATs are unbalanced atm and myrm is obviously overperforming compared to others. But only half the ATs have been released so far, and the game currently lacks 80% of the customization system. We don't know how things will interact with each other yet. 

 

More important, ACE has proven to have a very heavy hand when it comes to the nerf hammer. People complained about the champ quad-jumping, he got nerfed to the ground and has no mobility or survivability now. Kudos to the brave few out there still playing champ. People complained about druid damage, he also got nerfed to the ground and we lost the tactical gameplay element emitter had introduced to the game. Enjoy the melee death balls again. 

 

Just take a chill pill for now and learn how to counter the archetypes giving you trouble. Or else soon we'll have a neutered bull to keep the champ company in the reserve bench. 

 

Nobody is suggesting that anything get nerfed into the ground. You can't blame playtesters if the devs are heavy handed.

 

Nerfs are only bad if they are done badly. If something is overpowered and gets nerfed to the point of being properly balanced that is a good nerf.

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Nobody is suggesting that anything get nerfed into the ground. You can't blame playtesters if the devs are heavy handed.

 

Nerfs are only bad if they are done badly. If something is overpowered and gets nerfed to the point of being properly balanced that is a good nerf.

 

I agree with what Angelmar said above, there's many different factors involved, like his example of what support ATs can heal vs what Tank/DPS ATs can output. And the point I was trying to make is that there's no point changing core AT mechanics now, like the berserk mitigation, when we don't know which other elements (factors) are going to be introduced yet. Anti-healing disciplines have been mentioned already. The game can afford to have broken unbalanced combat now. It just can't afford that after everything has been introduced already and it goes into soft launch or whatever (just for records I dont even think berserk is broken, its other stuff making myrm OP). So I get skeptical when the "adjustment" passes we have seen for alpha so far have made ATs useless or removed elements that were fun and interesting before. 

Edited by Rikutatis

 

 

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The TLDR here.

- There are some liabilities with the current system/Crash.

- The class revolves entirely around the "6" ability with near 100% uptime.

- Any timing is not based on when to press "6" but how to mitigate a crash.
- I would rather have the "timing" shifted onto when to press "6", rather than how to mitigate a crash.
- I would also rather have a more dynamic "6" ability, meaning stronger but less uptime. (Example: duration dropped to 8 seconds but grants movement speed + CC immunity). 

I dont want the Myrm to be a "6" spam class and I also see potential where healing depression could end up being a "hard counter" to the Myrm. If healing is reduced 50% you will heal only 50% of the damage, but the crash is still 100%? Meaning if a heal depression class does this + CCs you (if "C" no longer can be used in CC) you effectively take 150% of the damage - again hard counter to the class.

I like games that have "soft counters" but dislike hard counters as it just leads to frustration.

I just personally feel like the current system is clunky and IMO it removes the immersion of playing the Myrmidon. Rather than being in the character and fighting, its almost like I have to take a step back and find myself counting down the crash to counter it. I just think there are BETTER ways to use this system that make it more fun, easier to balance, and create more immersion without the liabilities that I see potential for. 

EDIT: I want to STRESS something incase people misunderstand me. I am NOT advocating for the removal of skill. I think there should be a high level of skill involved. Right now I actually dont think there is a high level of skill and this "skill" can easily be macrod. What I want to see is the "skill" requirement shifted from something a macro could do, over to the player having to choose WHEN to use an ability - things like this result in MORE skill required since now you have to balance different factors rather than "oh its been 14 seconds better press 2".

Edited by th3gatekeeper
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If berserk were broken like people are saying it is we'd never be able to kill a myrm.

 

Funny, that, because they die all the time.

 

In that case, experience tells me they aren't overpowered. 100% healing isn't as overpowered as you think because they still die even though they have it. Lowering the percentage healed would only lower the TTK on a myrm, which is less than a knight atm. 

 

It has nothing to do with skill because I've seen "bad" myrm players and "good" myrm players die.  

 

The only thing OP about the myrm is their root. Halve the duration of myrm root, please, or let legio "5" negate it. Also, skill interrupts should work on myrm's "2" ability; as it is now it'll interrupt the animation but the mitigation still happens. 

 

 

 

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There seem to be 2 lines of argument for Myrmidon changes: One is leave the mechanic essentially the same, but tone it down significantly. Another seems to be, we should make the mechanic deeper and less about 6, 2, net and C.

 

I *think I agree with both lines of thought. Ultimately I think the berserk mechanic is a problem, as implemented. I also think at least 3 of this ATs abilities are straight up crazy strong. The net is over the top with current duration and CD. The C is over the top based on damage, knock down and the shortest "ult" in tha game. The Berserk itself allows this class to ignore the concerns of mere mortal ATs.

 

The rest of those abilities (Bull Rush, the stun and AoE bleed) ain't bad either fellas. This AT is just too good.

 

edit: I don't want folks to think I'm suggesting an over-the-top nerf. That can be bad. I say just dial it back a bit and see how that plays. If they're still head and shoulders above the rest, dial it back a little more. Start with the net, as Chodie suggests. That thing is a killer. Maybe up the CD on Berserk by 5 seconds. I bet those two would get close to a decent spot.

Edited by coolwaters
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The only problem with Minos right now is the C is too strong, you can't interrupt their #2 with a stun or knock up, and the root is 8 seconds long and does not break on damage.

 

Berserk is fine, there is no need to change the mechanic.They have hard counters planned for the self healing anyways, they are just not in yet.  Also a champs mortal strike and fessors meteor also working against the self healing from the Mino right now.

this. x2 decreased dmg on C is simple and enough nerf for myrmidon OR it should have dmg CAP with maximum 3 targets or split dmg.

MB some net cooldown increasing - pretty enough

 

 

anything else will kill this class. why? coz 5+ on 5+ = alot of random CC which are very dangerous for myrmidon

knight have big potential right after he got some healer benind. and remember - he can RMB and reflect some dmg + alot of CC

 

I would like to say - myrmi is good for 1v1 fights atm. and for group fight only coz C dmg.

there is more OP archetypes atm - lego and confessor

Edited by makkon

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I'd rather see the myrmidon stand on its own outside of having to rely on 6. Berserk should be the "okay, poorly made socks has gone bad button" and not the constant lifeline it is now.

This exactly.

 

the entire class revolves around this "6" buff and mitigating the crash. Which would be cool if it were like a 1 min CD and it provided this "amazing" buff for 10-15 seconds. I could see that, but when the entire class revolves around having the buff up 80%+ of the time and mitigating the crash, it just kinda lame... 

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The net ability they have needs to be nerfed a little i think too i think its CD needs to be increased a little when ever i vs one i feel like im literaly constantly rooted or pulled/charged toward via net, maybe its cause i was playing a ranger the lack of movement when shooting makes it to easy to land the net or somthing. but its seems to have like a 5 second down time from when the root wears off to when they can use it again. 

On the crash topic of his berzerk of what not, i would make his 2 not completely negate the crash but if timed correctly he will take say 50% reduced dmg or somthing from a crash if he uses his 2 ability in time. Ulti can stay the same when it com,e to crash mitigation since its and ulti and all that.

Edited by veeshan

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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The net ability they have needs to be nerfed a little i think too i think its CD needs to be increased a little when ever i vs one i feel like im literaly constantly rooted or pulled/charged toward via net, maybe its cause i was playing a ranger the lack of movement when shooting makes it to easy to land the net or somthing. but its seems to have like a 5 second down time from when the root wears off to when they can use it again. 

 

On the crash topic of his berzerk of what not, i would make his 2 not completely negate the crash but if timed correctly he will take say 50% reduced dmg or somthing from a crash if he uses his 2 ability in time. Ulti can stay the same when it com,e to crash mitigation since its and ulti and all that.

Those are very reasonable suggestions.

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