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Crafting: Where is the fun?


Calod
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This isn't a rant, just an observation as the current crafting system works.  Below is a breakdown on what it takes to craft the T2 confessor book.  

Broken into stages:

 

Stage 1

  • It starts off simple, I just need 1 Binding, 1 Clasp, Bound Chapters  (for starters this looks fairly simple)

 

Stage 2

  • Bindings - 2 Planks & stitched leather
  • Clasp - 1 metal bar
  • Bound Chapters - 4 Chapters, 1 Lacing Sinew

 

Stage 3

  • Stitched Leather - 3 hides, 1 specialty seal
  • Metal bar - 9 ore, 1 specialty seal
  • Chapter - 3 stone, stitched leather, metal bar

 

Stage 4

  • Specialty Seal - 1 ore, 1 stone

 

Ultimately there will be crafting guides out there that tell you to gather X resources before crafting.  Next craft X many stage 4 items, then craft X many stage 3, then progressively move to stage 1

 

Gathering the resources for this T2 book takes roughly (without failures):

  • 6 wood
  • 30 stone
  • 15 leather
  • 100 ore

Again this seems like it should be able to be gathered in a short amount of time (with potions) but without them, hours!  Let's not mention the failures, food consumption (breaks in crafting to gather food) and PvP.  It's fun to gather all of these items, get all the way back to stage 2 of crafting and then get ganked.  Lets just say it takes 30-60 min to gather all you need which is 1.5x mats.  Then tack on the crafting stages which will take 20-30 minutes.  Ouch, that is a lot of time wasted.  I have seen some PvP heavy games but to me this game is the most harsh system I have ever encountered.  If I could go gather 50 wood, rock and ore and combine them all at once to craft it would be a little more forgiving.  Right now, we have about 1 hour or more to craft 1 Book!  This is just a basic level T2 book with no rares.  Put on top of that other gear, vessels, and durability hits, with this system we are looking at about 50% or more time in game, crafting/gathering.

 

Yes, I know there are going to be factories/thralls to minimize some of this.  

 

Last note:  So you gathered, evaded ganks and crafted your piece of gear.  Nice!  You PvP for a little bit, lag out and die and poof, your gear is destroyed/looted.  Back to square one of being useless.  In a full loot PvP focused game, the gear should be a little easier to come by.

 

Where is the fun in this system?

Edited by pappy

"If your not failing sometimes, you aren't growing.  Without growth, there can never be greatness."

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This isn't a rant, just an observation as the current crafting system works.  Below is a breakdown on what it takes to craft the T2 confessor book.  

Broken into stages:

 

Stage 1

  • It starts off simple, I just need 1 Binding, 1 Clasp, Bound Chapters  (for starters this looks fairly simple)

 

Stage 2

  • Bindings - 2 Planks & stitched leather
  • Clasp - 1 metal bar
  • Bound Chapters - 4 Chapters, 1 Lacing Sinew

 

Stage 3

  • Stitched Leather - 3 hides, 1 specialty seal
  • Metal bar - 9 ore, 1 specialty seal
  • Chapter - 3 stone, stitched leather, metal bar

 

Stage 4

  • Specialty Seal - 1 ore, 1 stone

 

Ultimately there will be crafting guides out there that tell you to gather X resources before crafting.  Next craft X many stage 4 items, then craft X many stage 3, then progressively move to stage 1

 

Gathering the resources for this T2 book takes roughly (without failures):

  • 6 wood
  • 30 stone
  • 15 leather
  • 100 ore

Again this seems like it should be able to be gathered in a short amount of time (with potions) but without them, hours!  Let's not mention the failures, food consumption (breaks in crafting to gather food) and PvP.  It's fun to gather all of these items, get all the way back to stage 2 of crafting and then get ganked.  Lets just say it takes 30-60 min to gather all you need which is 1.5x mats.  Then tack on the crafting stages which will take 20-30 minutes.  Ouch, that is a lot of time wasted.  I have seen some PvP heavy games but to me this game is the most harsh system I have ever encountered.  If I could go gather 50 wood, rock and ore and combine them all at once to craft it would be a little more forgiving.  Right now, we have about 1 hour or more to craft 1 Book!  This is just a basic level T2 book with no rares.  Put on top of that other gear, vessels, and durability hits, with this system we are looking at about 50% or more time in game, crafting/gathering.

 

Yes, I know there are going to be factories/thralls to minimize some of this.  

 

Last note:  So you gathered, evaded ganks and crafted your piece of gear.  Nice!  You PvP for a little bit, lag out and die and poof, your gear is destroyed/looted.  Back to square one of being useless.  In a full loot PvP focused game, the gear should be a little easier to come by.

 

Where is the fun in this system?

At least it lasts a long time!

 

Wait ...

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When they fix (because it IS broken) the durability loss on items we wont need to make new itens so often.

 

That said, i like the fact that it is hard to make good itens. It makes people really feel that their equip is awesome. 2 hours to have a nice equip is not much, people are just used to easy leveling, gear upgrading.

 

It is like people who think that taking 2 hour to level is absurd.

 

 

They cant dumb down the recipes for this test because they are the recipes that will be in the game. And in the live game they will be complex to craft...

Edited by BarriaKarl
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I don't think gathering resources is wrong. However,

  • experimentation, where you put points one by one because it simply makes better results
  • and crafting all crafting ingredients
  • as well as (I think) unnecessary waiting

really is more of hidrance than of fun.

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I don't think gathering resources is wrong. However,

  • experimentation, where you put points one by one because it simply makes better results
  • and crafting all crafting ingredients
  • as well as (I think) unnecessary waiting

really is more of hidrance than of fun.

 

Well,

  • they said the experimentation will only happen in the crafting stations, so there is that.
  • I think we will see people grouping to share the multi components burden and buying components will also be pretty common
  • It is a chore because you need results right now, a crafter has no reason to rush that amazing sword he is making, factories will help too

I think it all comes down if you enjoy crafting or not. For most people spend half a hour to craft something is mind-blowing boring and a chore but some people love that. Even i that am not to much of a crafter prefer an arduous crafting process to one that just requires 3 clicks.

Edited by BarriaKarl
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The reason it sucks is because the Alpha test setup is exactly how the crafting system is designed NOT to work. It's like asking for a grilled cheese and being handed a recipe beginning with "Plant your wheat after the first full moon in April before your cows begin calving." Covering all of the steps from raw materials to finished product is annoying for most people, but you aren't supposed to do that in Crowfall. If you want to PvP and you need gear, you go to a crafter and buy some or place an order. The crafter takes items from her supply to make your item. That supply is drawn from other crafters and gatherers who form a network. That is the basis of the player driven economy. As this is only a test, they aren't trying to simulate the economy, they're just making sure things work

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The reason it sucks is because the Alpha test setup is exactly how the crafting system is designed NOT to work. It's like asking for a grilled cheese and being handed a recipe beginning with "Plant your wheat after the first full moon in April before your cows begin calving." Covering all of the steps from raw materials to finished product is annoying for most people, but you aren't supposed to do that in Crowfall. If you want to PvP and you need gear, you go to a crafter and buy some or place an order. The crafter takes items from her supply to make your item. That supply is drawn from other crafters and gatherers who form a network. That is the basis of the player driven economy. As this is only a test, they aren't trying to simulate the economy, they're just making sure things work

I think you are assuming that I don't like to craft.  I actually love crafting along with PvP.  The way the "current" system is implemented is horribly painful.  If this isn't how its going to be in relation to the game, what's the point in forcing crafting if there is no relevance?  I just think it takes too long for one item is the main point I was making.

 

In pretty much every game most of us have played, to get a metal ingot/bar you need ore and coal + forge.  In CF we need 9 ore + spec.seal (1 ore,1 stone) = ONE Metal BAR

From a harvesting perspective there is about 10x higher value set on ore than any other material in game.  Who is going to focus on woodcutting spec if mining is going to be way more valuable?

 

Just my final .02

Edited by pappy

"If your not failing sometimes, you aren't growing.  Without growth, there can never be greatness."

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That said, i like the fact that it is hard to make good itens. It makes people really feel that their equip is awesome. 2 hours to have a nice equip is not much, people are just used to easy leveling, gear upgrading.

 

Imagine a game where we, as players, could have that feeling of pride in not only the awesome, unique sword of pwnage we just made, but also for our entire character ...

 

That's what I'm missing in Crowfall. 

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The problem is that it is a test now. We don't have POI's, we don't have factories, we can't build castles, no caravans, no other things. It looks like you just randomly collect resources, craft random item, pvp, lose it, go to 1. Sure it shouldn't look like this in a final game. Why did they implement it for a test? Because they need to test it! How buttons are pushed and so on. Like HD or SP - we were just testing the combat, pushed buttons of powers and see the result.

 

The way I see the final system is not that we should focus on making "good item". We must zoom out and watch the big numbers. It's like our guild can gather X resources a day, then we can craft Y items of Z quality a day, and our guild loses N items a day in pvp and sieges. Do we cover our demand? If yes, and we still have some resources left, then we can try to raise the quality and supply our guild with better items, therefore they can collect more resources and we can craft even better items again.

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The problem is that it is a test now. We don't have POI's, we don't have factories, we can't build castles, no caravans, no other things. It looks like you just randomly collect resources, craft random item, pvp, lose it, go to 1. Sure it shouldn't look like this in a final game. Why did they implement it for a test? Because they need to test it! How buttons are pushed and so on. Like HD or SP - we were just testing the combat, pushed buttons of powers and see the result.

 

The way I see the final system is not that we should focus on making "good item". We must zoom out and watch the big numbers. It's like our guild can gather X resources a day, then we can craft Y items of Z quality a day, and our guild loses N items a day in pvp and sieges. Do we cover our demand? If yes, and we still have some resources left, then we can try to raise the quality and supply our guild with better items, therefore they can collect more resources and we can craft even better items again.

 Second paragraph i think is what the end goal really will be. From what i understand this game is focused around your group/guild and not yourself. Doing that all alone may be annoying but doing it as a guild where you have numerous crafters who are on the same page making items its not that bad. and like sedside said u have the crafters make enough swords/bows/staff etc to cover a siege for the day and if there is left over the crafters work on upgrading everything. Plus im new here and just watched alot of videos on how stuff will work but i thought i heard u could break down items. So for example if your guild/team wins the siege and you loot all the bodies u can probably break down a lot of the lower end gear that your guild no longer makes and then use the basic mats for crafting.

 

Only thing i am concerned with is the timing of how long it takes to make. I am betting that for the first month it may be hard to keep well geared since dying will be a regular thing as things get figured out but once the guild builds a big enough stock along with factories i bet it wont be bad. Devs seem to be listening really carefully to the community and if the time is an issue i bet they will fix it.

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This is actually where I think they've nailed it. Once banks and trading are in the crafting will be really cool. It's only a chore now because we can't stockpile anything and durability is so low. For now especially, durability should be tweaked in my opinion.

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This is actually where I think they've nailed it. Once banks and trading are in the crafting will be really cool. It's only a chore now because we can't stockpile anything and durability is so low. For now especially, durability should be tweaked in my opinion.

 

THIS ^   And also this is a TEST of some of the game systems... in the actual game if you train for PvP you will not be harvesting and may only be crafting on an alt.   Successful players will have a pipeline for obtaining materials and crafting necessary goods.   Solo play will be neigh on impossible, you won't have enough skills to do anything well...   not for months while organized guilds will highly specialized.   I have made 2 advanced books 4 advanced staves, two full sets of plate and many leather pieces all solo because of the harvest and craft potions...  these things are only possible by a skip mechanics provided by potions which will not exist and are only to test harvest and craft function as if you had trained them (instead of combat training).   Compared to the time sink of grind in Archeage and other terribadgrind mmos, this crafting is a cakewalk.   How can items have ANY value if anyone can easily make them... crafting has to have lots of steps and take lots of risks to make unique items or the economy has no teeth.   This is about making things of value rather than giving you easy mode gear up for PvP.   Step away and wait for the full game if you are not seeing clear through the lens of testing modes...

 

 

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Last note:  So you gathered, evaded ganks and crafted your piece of gear.  Nice!  You PvP for a little bit, lag out and die and poof, your gear is destroyed/looted.  Back to square one of being useless.  In a full loot PvP focused game, the gear should be a little easier to come by.

 

Where is the fun in this system?

if you make gear "easy" to obtain and keep it will kill the economy

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dura may be low on standart but if you get some good experemitation results on dura it is mutch better.

For example i had some good results with my 2 handed axe of my champ it got 955/500 dura. That wasnt even full amazing succes.

 

The death decay hit of 33% ( should be around that) is fine. It needs to be big so there is allways a need for new equiment.

Reducing the death decay is only 1 way to balance this out. They could also up the number of res you get per node.

I belive they will balance it out but right now that not the focus.

The entire game will be balanced around mass production so keep that in mind.

 

 

On topic.

The crafting itself is also fine. Dont forget that there are optional slots in crafting. You can use them but you dont need to.

Also the time to craft an item is currently mutch faster than it will be in the final game. ( devs said that)

You may now only get +1 sek crafting time for each experiment now but in the final game it will be mutch bigger.

They trew around that some items may take hours to make but there is the leadership tree with crafting boons.

That means crafting will most likely doable in a group just like harvesting.

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if you make gear "easy" to obtain and keep it will kill the economy

Obviously you didn't play Ultima Online.  My crafter made millions per week.  It was a full time job, but things were easy to make, once I invested enough time in my crafting to actually make everything.

"If your not failing sometimes, you aren't growing.  Without growth, there can never be greatness."

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I disagree and this is from someone who will only be a crafter for the life of his character.  It is not something for most to dable in it is a whole profession.  You are use to the watered down wow crafting.

 

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Before any of that, it feel like the calculation for ore is really wrong... (100?)

While 'specialty seal' is additional, so the crafter can either use it or not

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Before any of that, it feel like the calculation for ore is really wrong... (100?)

While 'specialty seal' is additional, so the crafter can either use it or not

You craft up a book and then tell me that my number is wrong.  It probably takes more than 100.

 

You can craft a metal bar and stitched leather with no Specialty Seal?

"If your not failing sometimes, you aren't growing.  Without growth, there can never be greatness."

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