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pappy

Crafting: Where is the fun?

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There are things I agree with and things I disagree with here. I won't get into them in detail.

 

The only *real* problem I have here is that people keep using "but that's the game" as a defense of trolling.

 

This is NOT the game. This isn't even an alpha yet. Right now is not about "how the game should work." It isn't even about "how the game WILL work." It's about "does this part of the game work?"

 

Pre-alpha is about making the individual systems and testing them, then putting them together in different configurations and testing THOSE. We're not seeing the finished crafting system. We're not seeing the finished combat system. We're not seeing the finished world.

 

People who keep treating the pre-alpha the way they would treat an open beta or the live game are missing the point. This is the crafting and harvesting pre-alpha test server. The point is to test harvesting and crafting, and how they interact with the core game functionality. Devs are looking for feedback on playability and bugs - this shouldn't be a total free-for-all. Some of the feedback garnered from a free-for-all is useful, but actionable data you can draw from getting graveyard camped is...limited. Try to remember that one of the strengths of this game according to the devs is that they can take the things that work and tweak and improve them, and they can take the things that don't work and remove them. That's after the game is done, though. When people get to choose their level of risk before joining a campaign. Right now, everyone is forced into a free-for-all, and if you're being a troll, "that's the game" is not a sound defense.

 

But I'm tired of wasting time explaining the difference between "testing PvP" and "being a troll during pre-alpha." It turns out, most of the few hundred people who paid over $100 to have access to this stage of testing understand the difference. But it's the small handful of people who are actively trolling during every single day of testing who I'm talking to, and I don't imagine that they care enough to listen.

 

Back on track: specialty seals are super optional. They perform a very specific function - they replace the effects that a [metal bar] would have had (+.05 Attack) with harvesting-specific effects (+.05 Ore Penetration). Any crafting material with a green border and a symbol in the corner is not needed to craft an item, but specialty seals are a special breed of optional.

TL;DR: If you think trolling in pre-alpha is okay because the game is supposed to be PvP-centric when it launches, please never become a game tester. Or an anything else tester.

Edited by goose

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Also, having just done the math off the cuff with the game client closed, it looks to me like a book requires - barring failures, which can be accomplished very easily with potions if you want to use 2 ores a pop - 9 ore, maybe 5 hides, and some 40-odd wood.

 

I had to farm more than that just in ore for my duelist. Seems fine.

 

Edit: I feel like I'm forgetting a step between parchment and chapter, but for the life of me I can't remember what it is.

Edited by goose

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Also, having just done the math off the cuff with the game client closed, it looks to me like a book requires - barring failures, which can be accomplished very easily with potions if you want to use 2 ores a pop - 9 ore, maybe 5 hides, and some 40-odd wood.

 

I had to farm more than that just in ore for my duelist. Seems fine.

 

Edit: I feel like I'm forgetting a step between parchment and chapter, but for the life of me I can't remember what it is.

I want to use your crafting table because that looks extremely simple compared to what I have to do.

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You craft up a book and then tell me that my number is wrong.  It probably takes more than 100.

 

You can craft a metal bar and stitched leather with no Specialty Seal?

 

Sure, I will try to craft one.

Exactly, specialty seal is just additional if you want to use it.

(The icon is different than the rest, and with '+" symbol)

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TL:DR I think crafting needs a lot of work - less so in the crafting process - although that is quite click heavy - but in the complexity of the recipes and the sub component requirements for stuff. There needs to be scaling of Return on Effort required.

 

There should be proper recipe scaling - with optional components - so to start you can just drop 3 x X resource and build a tier 0 item - you can improve results with resource type, quality, optional items and experimentation but it needs to be a simple drop 3 and build to start with.

 

Then tier 1 might be 6 x X and tier 2 12 x X plus some required components etc IMO the balance between craft and play is not right.

 

I agree with the comments re PvP impact on harvest / craft also - but less worried about that at this stage = its irritating but avoidable if one exercises plenty of caution.

 

My issue overall is the Return of Effort expended in whatever guise is not rewarding enough to maintain interest and commitment of the player. The Risk / Effort / Reward equation is critical to this games short, medium and long term success and right now it is way way off.

 

Crafting expertise should pay off in the improvements from applying expertise, judgement, selection etc - not just in Volume or Time.

 

A lot has been mentioned about SWG crafting in the past and there was much in that model that worked and that seems not to have been applied or even considered here (as yet).

 

PS The Take Bug really really needs to be a addressed - I lost about 15 or so items at different stages to this over about 8 hours testing during the weekend. I made a time record when it occurred and checked my local log files after play - nothing in those shows anything specific to the moment of item loss.

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I want to use your crafting table because that looks extremely simple compared to what I have to do.

lol. Wow, yeah, that was... So in my defense, I had been awake for a lot of hours and apparently couldn't count anymore.

 

So let's break down what you need after sleep and coffee, using the numbers your provided in the first post.

 

To make a book, you need a binding, a clasp, and bound chapters.

 

binding: plank, plank, stitched leather
plank - 3 wood
plank - 3 wood
stitched leather - 3 hide
 
clasp: metal bar
metal bar - 3 ore
 
bound chapters: chapter, chapter, chapter, chapter, lacing sinew
chapter - 3 stone, 3 hide, 3 ore
chapter - 3 stone, 3 hide, 3 ore
chapter - 3 stone, 3 hide, 3 ore
chapter - 3 stone, 3 hide, 3 ore
lacing sinew - probably more hide?
 
I omitted the specialty seals because they're optional, so by my count the real total comes out to:
6 wood
12 stone
15 hide
15 ore
and whatever lacing sinew needs, so maybe it's really 18 hide.
 
This doesn't require a whole lot of work, especially with the inclusion of crafting potions. For 2 ore, I have a 75% chance to craft a potion that increases all of my crafting success chances to 95% for the next 20 minutes. Then, another 6 ore turns every node I hit for the next 10 minutes into a loot pinata. If I'm somewhere vaguely close to skinnable enemies, I can get my hands on that shopping list in about 20 minutes after logging in naked.
Edited by goose

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Also, I do want to reiterate that the GAME isn't focused on full loot. That's only going to be a risk in The Dregs, and you're going to have to volunteer for that.

 

This is pre-alpha. It is NOT a sound representation of the finished game.

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lol. Wow, yeah, that was... So in my defense, I had been awake for a lot of hours and apparently couldn't count anymore.

 

So let's break down what you need after sleep and coffee, using the numbers your provided in the first post.

 

To make a book, you need a binding, a clasp, and bound chapters.

 

binding: plank, plank, stitched leather
plank - 3 wood
plank - 3 wood
stitched leather - 3 hide
 
clasp: metal bar
metal bar - 3 ore
 
bound chapters: chapter, chapter, chapter, chapter, lacing sinew
chapter - 3 stone, 3 hide, 3 ore
chapter - 3 stone, 3 hide, 3 ore
chapter - 3 stone, 3 hide, 3 ore
chapter - 3 stone, 3 hide, 3 ore
lacing sinew - probably more hide?
 
I omitted the specialty seals because they're optional, so by my count the real total comes out to:
6 wood
12 stone
15 hide
15 ore
and whatever lacing sinew needs, so maybe it's really 18 hide.
 
This doesn't require a whole lot of work, especially with the inclusion of crafting potions. For 2 ore, I have a 75% chance to craft a potion that increases all of my crafting success chances to 95% for the next 20 minutes. Then, another 6 ore turns every node I hit for the next 10 minutes into a loot pinata. If I'm somewhere vaguely close to skinnable enemies, I can get my hands on that shopping list in about 20 minutes after logging in naked.

 

Wait, 'metal bar' is 9 ore. So it should be around 20s ore, considering the recipes and others are correct.

So... regardless of whether it's 100% correct or not, the 100 ore mentioned by pappy is completely wrong.

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This isn't a rant, just an observation as the current crafting system works.  Below is a breakdown on what it takes to craft the T2 confessor book.  

Broken into stages:

 

Stage 1

  • It starts off simple, I just need 1 Binding, 1 Clasp, Bound Chapters  (for starters this looks fairly simple)

 

Stage 2

  • Bindings - 2 Planks & stitched leather
  • Clasp - 1 metal bar
  • Bound Chapters - 4 Chapters, 1 Lacing Sinew

 

Stage 3

  • Stitched Leather - 3 hides, 1 specialty seal
  • Metal bar - 9 ore, 1 specialty seal
  • Chapter - 3 stone, stitched leather, metal bar

 

Stage 4

  • Specialty Seal - 1 ore, 1 stone

 

Ultimately there will be crafting guides out there that tell you to gather X resources before crafting.  Next craft X many stage 4 items, then craft X many stage 3, then progressively move to stage 1

 

Gathering the resources for this T2 book takes roughly (without failures):

  • 6 wood
  • 30 stone
  • 15 leather
  • 100 ore

Again this seems like it should be able to be gathered in a short amount of time (with potions) but without them, hours!  Let's not mention the failures, food consumption (breaks in crafting to gather food) and PvP.  It's fun to gather all of these items, get all the way back to stage 2 of crafting and then get ganked.  Lets just say it takes 30-60 min to gather all you need which is 1.5x mats.  Then tack on the crafting stages which will take 20-30 minutes.  Ouch, that is a lot of time wasted.  I have seen some PvP heavy games but to me this game is the most harsh system I have ever encountered.  If I could go gather 50 wood, rock and ore and combine them all at once to craft it would be a little more forgiving.  Right now, we have about 1 hour or more to craft 1 Book!  This is just a basic level T2 book with no rares.  Put on top of that other gear, vessels, and durability hits, with this system we are looking at about 50% or more time in game, crafting/gathering.

 

Yes, I know there are going to be factories/thralls to minimize some of this.  

 

Last note:  So you gathered, evaded ganks and crafted your piece of gear.  Nice!  You PvP for a little bit, lag out and die and poof, your gear is destroyed/looted.  Back to square one of being useless.  In a full loot PvP focused game, the gear should be a little easier to come by.

 

Where is the fun in this system?

 

Everyone complaining about how long harvesting/gathering takes, really needs to watch this.

 

https://youtu.be/4RT90Vb5m7o?t=178

 

Notice the number "Like 3000 wood".  

 

So one caravan goes and gets the 3000 wood, and one goes hunting for the leather, and one goes and gets 3000 ore, and one goes and gets 3000 stone.

 

Now with a couple of runs, your guild/team has enough resources for well over 300 basic confessor books.  Make BP's along the way, and grind out failures, about 200 or more from a single resource run?

 

Crafters would be at home in the early stages trying to get and organize the best BP's to base a whole teams worth of gear on, and managing production runs. It would be stupid to convert a full resource run into just confessor books, so they would have to manage inventory velocity, pricing, etc etc etc.

 

 The stuff we are testing now is simply what could be called survival crafting for one person, if you were stuck without a guild/city to get gear from.

 

Guilds probably will make for guild members for really low cost, while selling to the soloists, who will provide extra resources in dribs and drabs,  for higher markups.

 

I think what is going to be the hottest item from what I have seen so far, "Amazing Success" metal bars built from BP's of all tiers.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Thanks everyone for your responses and feedback.  I wasn't able to get in this test because of that rare "too many strings" bug that wouldn't let me stay in game more than 4 seconds.  

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Wait, 'metal bar' is 9 ore. So it should be around 20s ore, considering the recipes and others are correct.

So... regardless of whether it's 100% correct or not, the 100 ore mentioned by pappy is completely wrong.

-headdesk- Apparently it wasn't sleep deprivation or a lack of coffee. I just can't count.

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Another thing worth noting, though. This is pure speculation, but I think the crafting interface we've been using in testing is closer to the crafting table interface than the one we'd actually have access to in the world.

 

The devs have stated that experimentation will only be available at dedicated crafting tables once the game goes live, but since we're just testing the crafting modules right now, I think they gave us access to more options than we'll really have while standing next to a pile of rocks in the future.

 

Out in the open with an inventory full of loot in a full-loot enabled PvP zone is not the ideal time to be trapped in a full-screen crafting interface, but neither is that something that will be an option in live. XD

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Everyone complaining about how long harvesting/gathering takes, really needs to watch this.

 

https://youtu.be/4RT90Vb5m7o?t=178

 

Notice the number "Like 3000 wood".  

 

So one caravan goes and gets the 3000 wood, and one goes hunting for the leather, and one goes and gets 3000 ore, and one goes and gets 3000 stone.

 

Now with a couple of runs, your guild/team has enough resources for well over 300 basic confessor books.  Make BP's along the way, and grind out failures, about 200 or more from a single resource run?

 

Crafters would be at home in the early stages trying to get and organize the best BP's to base a whole teams worth of gear on, and managing production runs. It would be stupid to convert a full resource run into just confessor books, so they would have to manage inventory velocity, pricing, etc etc etc.

 

 The stuff we are testing now is simply what could be called survival crafting for one person, if you were stuck without a guild/city to get gear from.

 

Guilds probably will make for guild members for really low cost, while selling to the soloists, who will provide extra resources in dribs and drabs,  for higher markups.

 

I think what is going to be the hottest item from what I have seen so far, "Amazing Success" metal bars built from BP's of all tiers.

 

Also, don't forget blueprinting isn't even activated yet either, so first the crafter is going to blueprint the "amazing success" bars and item pieces, then the first entire "amazing success" item will get blueprinted as well. The crafting scope that's getting laid out is without a doubt the first system that has myself personally considering a pure crafter character in a MMO and I've been playing them since EQ1. 

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I think you are assuming that I don't like to craft. I actually love crafting along with PvP. The way the "current" system is implemented is horribly painful. If this isn't how its going to be in relation to the game, what's the point in forcing crafting if there is no relevance? I just think it takes too long for one item is the main point I was making.

 

In pretty much every game most of us have played, to get a metal ingot/bar you need ore and coal + forge. In CF we need 9 ore + spec.seal (1 ore,1 stone) = ONE Metal BAR

From a harvesting perspective there is about 10x higher value set on ore than any other material in game. Who is going to focus on woodcutting spec if mining is going to be way more valuable?

 

Just my final .02

If this isn't how its going to be in relation to the game, what's the point in forcing crafting if there is no relevance?

 

The reason we have resource nodes coming out of our ears, stat potions to give us a boost, and the ability to craft without stations (things that won't exist at launch) is to make things easier so the devs can work out the bugs in crafting. Just as Hunger Dome was a test environment to test certain game aspects and was not truly representative of how the game is meant to work, so is Big World. If you want a more authentic experience, make some friends in chat or join a guild and work together for mutual protection and to increase the speed of gathering. Another thing is, crafting it supposed to take a long time. Crafters are supposed to spend a lot of time fiddling with their item to get it just right before they make a blueprint to make multiples of that item. This won't be the usual "three ore make a bar, two bars make a sword" type of system where you can craft your gear and get back into the fight. If it's just the gathering part that is bringing you down, good news! As gathering is its own profession, you may never have to gather again (assuming your guild has enough gatherers) and you can stay at your station, experimenting and tweaking to your heart's content. For me, that is where the fun is. Truly being a crafter, not a miner who moonlights as a blacksmith.

 

 

Who is going to focus on woodcutting spec if mining is going to be way more valuable?

 

People who like gathering and making money. Perhaps there will be more miners than woodsmen, then again perhaps the drop rates will be such that not as many miners are needed. Whatever the case, needing more ore for some recipes does not decrease the value of other resources. Every type of resource it valuable. The deposition of the population will find its own equilibrium.

Edited by ZaphodBeeblebrox

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Who is going to focus on woodcutting spec if mining is going to be way more valuable?

 

They can also balance this with the secondary drops, like dust.

 

If low cost/demand resources dropped more dust to offset the difference, there would be reduced difference in value.

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The goals in crafting that Blair and team set out to do was this:

 

To make it have depth and a high level of customization.

 

Limit the hundreds of useless recipes.

 

Get away from tiered resources so copper is worth as much as gold when crafting.

 

Bring back crafting as a full time profession.

 

 

 

I think they nailed the top three but the 4th is arguable with the current skill system and multi-accounts.

 

With that being said, i dont want this to turn in to a multi-account argument again so lets move on.

 

So 3/4 is not bad but lets say its 4/4. They did what they set out to do so it comes to this: is it fun?

 

Personally, with a stream lined UI with some quality of life enhancements i think it -can- be. I think they are very close to nailing the "is it fun". I think it will come down to the nobs that are in need of tuning. The RNG needs alot of work. Time and time again games that go for true RNG end up finding thats its not actually fun. Pseudo-RNG is the way to go 9/10 of the time.

 

If its 95% success rate, 6 rows of failure in a row should be made impossible. Even though its probable people have an extremely negative response to something like that. Thats why weighted returns and Pseudo-RNG is by far the best way to go, this works in both directions. 

 

Also the stats need to be tweaked, ending up with 5 attack power after back to back amazing success is obviously, a tad silly. 

 

So i think the framework that houses the crafting is good, it just needs tuning, UI overhaul, some quality of life changes, and a re-look of RNG. All of which is relatively minor once the framework is in place.

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I'm pretty damn happy with the crafting so far. The take bug, absence of a bank and inability to craft in bulk currently are the only reasosn it seems cumbersome in my view.

 

If decisions in character building were anywhere close to the depth required in crafting I'd be a happy camper.

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If decisions in character building were anywhere close to the depth required in crafting I'd be a happy camper.

 

Isn't that exactly what character building will be? Using this crafting system to customize vessels?

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The goals in crafting that Blair and team set out to do was this:

 

To make it have depth and a high level of customization.

 

Limit the hundreds of useless recipes.

 

Get away from tiered resources so copper is worth as much as gold when crafting.

 

Bring back crafting as a full time profession.

 

 

 

I think they nailed the top three but the 4th is arguable with the current skill system and multi-accounts.

 

With that being said, i dont want this to turn in to a multi-account argument again so lets move on.

 

So 3/4 is not bad but lets say its 4/4. They did what they set out to do so it comes to this: is it fun?

 

Personally, with a stream lined UI with some quality of life enhancements i think it -can- be. I think they are very close to nailing the "is it fun". I think it will come down to the nobs that are in need of tuning. The RNG needs alot of work. Time and time again games that go for true RNG end up finding thats its not actually fun. Pseudo-RNG is the way to go 9/10 of the time.

 

If its 95% success rate, 6 rows of failure in a row should be made impossible. Even though its probable people have an extremely negative response to something like that. Thats why weighted returns and Pseudo-RNG is by far the best way to go, this works in both directions. 

 

Also the stats need to be tweaked, ending up with 5 attack power after back to back amazing success is obviously, a tad silly. 

 

So i think the framework that houses the crafting is good, it just needs tuning, UI overhaul, some quality of life changes, and a re-look of RNG. All of which is relatively minor once the framework is in place.

Actually, there is something very off about the whole RNG system they are using currently.

 

First off, 100% risk can still result in Amazing Success, so "Risk" does not mean what it intuitively is.

 

Second, your example of 6 fails in a row with a 95% rate should actually only ever happen 1/(.05^6) times or 1/1,400,000,000.  That I personally have seen many many examples of frequent repeated failures means that either the 95% number displayed isn't, or they have some fundamental problems with the RNG.

 

So yea, someone needs to run a couple million tries of crafting to see what the heck is up with the RNG.  I know from experience, RNG's systems are notoriously hard to get right. 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Actually, there is something very off about the whole RNG system they are using currently.

 

First off, 100% risk can still result in Amazing Success, so "Risk" does not mean what it intuitively is.

 

Second, your example of 6 fails in a row with a 95% rate should actually only ever happen 1/(.05^6) times or 1/1,400,000,000.  That I personally have seen many many examples of frequent repeated failures means that either the 95% number displayed isn't, or they have some fundamental problems with the RNG.

 

So yea, someone needs to run a couple million tries of crafting to see what the heck is up with the RNG.  I know from experience, RNG's systems are notoriously hard to get right. 

I think you misunderstand the risk. I dont think its a direct numbers of chance to fail. I think it is a increase to the chance to fail. Like if there was 5% to crit fail, 20% to fail, 30% chance to succeed 20% for good, 15% for great and 10% for amazing. A 100% risk increase would make it 10% for crit fail, 40% for fail and the rest of the numbers would be readjusted.

 

Of course this is a complete guess.

 

Also, its actually 1/64,000,000. And thats, in theory, if you try 64mill times there should be -one- instance you run 6 failures in a row. The actual result can be much different, thats why True RNG is such garbage, when a player gets that 1 in a mill chance and its negative, the hate is real. 

 

Psuedo-RNG makes it impossible for the 1/64mil to happen. Not improbable, impossible. It forces the truth table to run toward what it should be so these bull crap repeated failures never happen.

 

It takes in to effect the multiple failures and curves it so forces a success. Same side of the coin, if it has an unusual amount of successes it forces a failure, and it is generally based off of a iteration of a limited amount.

Edited by Vectious

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