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silhaku

Multi-account summerized

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So this topic has been covering the forum for a while now and has been moving in circles the entire time. I just want to summarize what I've read and place my thoughts on the matter here. Please bring up anything I might have missed.

People are concerned that people will buy multiple accounts to gain a advantage over other players. A valid concern because Crowfall will have a passive training system. Multi-accounts will always be a thing in games like this. Any game where time bars your progression multiple accounts will be a thing.

Looking at all the cash grab games in the mobile market and you can see how they have adverse effects on those games. So passive training isn't really a desired progression to have. But it does have its positives also. It's a effective way to pull a game away from progress and bring the focus more to the gameplay itself.

I have suggestions to limit these adverse effects but I'll state some suggestions already made that I don't agree with.

The first being letting players pay for VIP to train multiple general skills. Seems like a good idea, it would make the VIP method more appealing and a decent alternative than buying multiple accounts. But does it really limit the adversity multiple accounts cause? No, it just gives more options to reach that same result. So I'm against this because it just turns VIP into a p2w mechanic.

The next option was to add a active training on top of the passive one. This one I only part way disagree with it. As I stated before, one of the main positives of the passive training system is to take the focus away from the progression of your character and place it upon the progression you make in the game world as a whole. So adding a active training system completely negates the positive to just lessen the negative impacts.

But it could be done right, maybe a proficiency system that degrades overtime for not actively doing something. It would need to degrade to reduce the value of grinding and the gains from this system would need to be small. Effectively balanced it would make active accounts better than alt accounts, only by a little though. So it wouldn't have much of a impact to begin with. So the time and effort would probably be wasted.

In the end, people will have multiple accounts. Trying to find ways to stop/limit people from buying multiple accounts is unrealistic. The most we can do is try to suggest ways that limit the damage multiple accounts will have on the game. Like limiting how much you gain from the skill tree or base how much passive training you get based off of how much time played. Like if you play 2 hours you get like 20 hours of passive training or something like that.

Hopefully this topic will start to progress somewhere instead on going in circles like it has been.

Edited by silhaku

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Yep. I don't really think it's something they can effectively stop. All of the proposed solutions will just make the game worse and still result in people having multiple accounts.

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You are attempting to create solutions to a problem that you are making much bigger than it actually is, and at the same time its apparent you put little effort into your proposed solutions.

 

If you require me to play for 2 hours to get 20 hours of passive training, I will simply log my alt account on when I go to sleep and stash him running into a wall somewhere. People who want multiple accounts will have multiple accounts, its going to happen. There is nothing wrong with having multiple accounts, it does not grant a significant advantage over other players. Perhaps the multi-account player is a little more self sufficient or has various play styles available to him/her but they still have to play the game to benefit from that. The player still needs to harvest/craft/fight. Any time spent on one account is time lost doing something on another account. 

 

To me the greatest advantage of running multiple accounts is to allow me to fully play the different archetypes I want without being hamstrung. I like to play both ranged and melee combatants and I enjoy alts because it breaks up the monotony of playing the same thing all the time. As it stands now, even as a combat specialist I can't play both a ranged and melee combatant as the skill trees branch rather quickly and force me to play one style or the other. In the same context that players will get more options by investing in VIP, players can attain additional options by having multiple accounts.

 

Many players have already figured out that having 3 accounts is better than having 1 account with VIP, with what we currently know about VIP. I can pay $90 and have 3 accounts which can be trained in a way that is conducive to both the archetype and role desired for each character without having to be a jack of all trades. With VIP the currently known primary benefit is being able to train 3 archetypes at once ($15/month = $180/year). This benefit is really only good after several years of game-play, unless the 3 archetypes you pick all have a similar play style, for example all 3 are melee combatants.

 

Ultimately what all this bellyaching boils down to is that some players don't want someone else to have any advantage over them. This however is an unrealistic expectation, some players have more time/skill/money/etc and why should they be inhibited from playing they way they like just because you don't think its fair. ACE has done a reasonable job of maintaining a realistically fair playing ground for all players. Focus on yourself and don't worry about what other players are doing unless its an obvious exploit (dupe/hack/etc).

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You are attempting to create solutions to a problem that you are making much bigger than it actually is, and at the same time its apparent you put little effort into your proposed solutions.

 

If you require me to play for 2 hours to get 20 hours of passive training, I will simply log my alt account on when I go to sleep and stash him running into a wall somewhere. People who want multiple accounts will have multiple accounts, its going to happen. There is nothing wrong with having multiple accounts, it does not grant a significant advantage over other players. Perhaps the multi-account player is a little more self sufficient or has various play styles available to him/her but they still have to play the game to benefit from that. The player still needs to harvest/craft/fight. Any time spent on one account is time lost doing something on another account. 

 

To me the greatest advantage of running multiple accounts is to allow me to fully play the different archetypes I want without being hamstrung. I like to play both ranged and melee combatants and I enjoy alts because it breaks up the monotony of playing the same thing all the time. As it stands now, even as a combat specialist I can't play both a ranged and melee combatant as the skill trees branch rather quickly and force me to play one style or the other. In the same context that players will get more options by investing in VIP, players can attain additional options by having multiple accounts.

 

Many players have already figured out that having 3 accounts is better than having 1 account with VIP, with what we currently know about VIP. I can pay $90 and have 3 accounts which can be trained in a way that is conducive to both the archetype and role desired for each character without having to be a jack of all trades. With VIP the currently known primary benefit is being able to train 3 archetypes at once ($15/month = $180/year). This benefit is really only good after several years of game-play, unless the 3 archetypes you pick all have a similar play style, for example all 3 are melee combatants.

 

Ultimately what all this bellyaching boils down to is that some players don't want someone else to have any advantage over them. This however is an unrealistic expectation, some players have more time/skill/money/etc and why should they be inhibited from playing they way they like just because you don't think its fair. ACE has done a reasonable job of maintaining a realistically fair playing ground for all players. Focus on yourself and don't worry about what other players are doing unless its an obvious exploit (dupe/hack/etc).

I feel the same way. As long as it doesn't break the game in any way I'm fine with giving people more options. But if people start to become a jack of all trades way too soon then you will a(break the economy, b(make the game impossible for anyone not using a alt account to compete, or c(Hinder the games performance because there are so many people dual boxing and playing multiple accounts at once. These are the real issues with multi-accounts. I'm just trying to state if you want to suggest a improvement to the current system to take these things in mind and question would your solution actually make things better or worse.

Edited by silhaku

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If you require me to play for 2 hours to get 20 hours of passive training, I will simply log my alt account on when I go to sleep and stash him running into a wall somewhere. People who want multiple accounts will have multiple accounts, its going to happen.

Except that can be prevented it coded right, BDO did that, just running your character into a wall (or even make him run in a constant circle as well) would not progress your "stamina" skill there which was progressed simply by running. I assume the character simply had to actually be moving a certain distance away from its spot before it would progress the skill, same kind of coding could be used that there prevent it here as well I am sure.

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Except that can be prevented it coded right, BDO did that, just running your character into a wall (or even make him run in a constant circle as well) would not progress your "stamina" skill there which was progressed simply by running. I assume the character simply had to actually be moving a certain distance away from its spot before it would progress the skill, same kind of coding could be used that there prevent it here as well I am sure.

Yep there is a way to do it. And solid detailed coding is the way to do it. Not sure if its realistic for put the effort in to it though.

 

Taking the current NPC code as an example.

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Yep there is a way to do it. And solid detailed coding is the way to do it. Not sure if its realistic for put the effort in to it though.

 

Taking the current NPC code as an example.

But we are dealing with a small studio, where do you expect them to put their coding resources? Combat or logic to prevent players from staying logged in?

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Yep there is a way to do it. And solid detailed coding is the way to do it. Not sure if its realistic for put the effort in to it though.

 

Taking the current NPC code as an example.

But would I work? Yeah it takes time and effort but would it work and increase the performance of the game? Programmers have to make their money some way right? It doesn't need to be implemented yet. But if you walk into a keep and start lagging when you have alts just chilling all around, it would be a option.

 

 

You are attempting to create solutions to a problem that you are making much bigger than it actually is, and at the same time its apparent you put little effort into your proposed solutions.

I'm not making solutions, and as of right now I don't see a problem. That doesn't mean there won't be any. Looking at other games you can see what kind of problems may occur. But most of those problems steam from the fact that the system could be abused by multiple accounts to the point where playing without one was leaving you in a gimped state or the intended features within the game were destroyed because of them. So yeah,  players having multiple account may not be that big of a problem here but at the same time they have destroyed other games so the matter shouldn't be taken lightly.

Edited by silhaku

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I feel the same way. As long as it doesn't break the game in any way I'm fine with giving people more options. But if people start to become a jack of all trades way too soon then you will a(break the economy, b(make the game impossible for anyone not using a alt account to compete, or c(Hinder the games performance because there are so many people dual boxing and playing multiple accounts at once. These are the real issues with multi-accounts. I'm just trying to state if you want to suggest a improvement to the current system to take these things in mind and question would your solution actually make things better or worse.

 

Again, you are making a mountain out of what is not even a mole hill. A group of players who specialize will be far more productive than a player who wants to TRY to be self sufficient. The solo player has nobody to protect him while he gathers resources. The solo player is not harvesting resources when they are out fighting other players. The solo player does not have any resources coming in while they are busy crafting. Blue prints can only take you so far and even that will require a non-trivial time investment to get a print which is worth doing a bulk run for. The solo player is at a disadvantage in just about every scenario you can come up with versus a group of players who specialize and work together.

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Most of those games where combat is manipulated by people running multiple accounts at once are done because of bad combat mechanics. For example buffs that last for 10+ minutes typically results in someone running a "buffbot" account. If combat allows you to /follow or /targetoftarget etc then it leads to a player running a very efficient focus fire group. The person running multiple accounts at once is almost always using a program which is prohibited by TOS. Ban players who are doing bad things and leave people who want to play different styles alone. If I want to pay for 3 accounts that is my business.

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Again, you are making a mountain out of what is not even a mole hill. A group of players who specialize will be far more productive than a player who wants to TRY to be self sufficient. The solo player has nobody to protect him while he gathers resources. The solo player is not harvesting resources when they are out fighting other players. The solo player does not have any resources coming in while they are busy crafting. Blue prints can only take you so far and even that will require a non-trivial time investment to get a print which is worth doing a bulk run for. The solo player is at a disadvantage in just about every scenario you can come up with versus a group of players who specialize and work together.

-_- mofo, stop trolling and read. I don't care if you have multiple accounts. I don't care if more than half the playerbase has them. Does it break the economy? Does it give unfair advantage (as you just described no), and does it place stress on any of the other game system? If its all no, then i'm saying there isn't a issue. But when one of this issues do occur, then steps must be taken to fix it.

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I feel the same way. As long as it doesn't break the game in any way I'm fine with giving people more options. But if people start to become a jack of all trades way too soon then you will a(break the economy, b(make the game impossible for anyone not using a alt account to compete, or c(Hinder the games performance because there are so many people dual boxing and playing multiple accounts at once. These are the real issues with multi-accounts. I'm just trying to state if you want to suggest a improvement to the current system to take these things in mind and question would your solution actually make things better or worse.

 

I'm not trolling, you listed out a couple of problems all of which I think are trivial at best. I get that you are saying you don't have a problem but you started a thread for people to talk about the problems of multiple accounts and some things to consider when proposing solutions.

 

A) Player specialized as a group will always trump jack of all trades solo player with multiple accounts (its not even close).

 

B] Ban players using illegal software which violates TOS. Combat is not tab targeted so the focus fire issue is not a concern. There is collision in this game so another huge detriment to someone trying to play a group  by themselves. We have not seen any buffs yet which last an excessive amount of time. In summary most of the things that lend themselves to wanting/needing multiple accounts to "compete" are already eliminated by current game mechanics.

 

C) See above, points. Any player dual boxing has twice as much to lose and risks doing so by playing a game which does not lend itself to efficient multi-boxing. As to network performance issues from players AFK in a keep, there is a very simple solution. Kill them and take their stuff. There is no skill training benefit from being logged on when you are AFK so whats the point of leaving bots sitting idle somewhere?

 

In my mind players looking to have multiple accounts in CF are not doing so with the intent to multi-box but rather will log in and out of the various accounts depending on what they feel like doing on a given day. Will someone try to multibox and run their own group, probably, but good luck to them considering the risks and environment in which we play.

Edited by Verot

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Lets make sure we clarify the jack of all trades that we want to eliminate.

 

There is a huge difference between (1) a player who has access to multiple account that allows him to specialize in the different aspects of game (combat/harvest/craft) and (2) a game which allows an individual character to be a jack of all trades. In the first scenario there is still a valid risk/reward while in the second it is all but gone. The player in scenario 1 who logs into his harvester still runs the risk of running into a combat situation that advantages a combat oriented opponent. Scenario (2) allows the player to exist on an island with little to no risk at all times of game play. This is why I have no issue with a player who has multiple accounts. I am 100% in agreement that VIP should not allow players to train in 3 general trees at once because it leads to scenario 2.

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@ OP,

You know there is SOME way to alleviate this... 

If they made training not auto-train the next level... It might require a little fine tuning as to the amount of time things took, but think about it for a little bit... What if each level only took a few minutes to train. I know the LONG levels could take longer, but imagine having 2 or 3 accounts. You couldnt just 100% passively train, you would be forced to constantly cycle through your accounts and never play the game.

Currently, you set a "node" or que up something to train, and you can walk away and come back 3-4 days later and a tier 1 is trained correct.

What if they adjusted the training time, but made it so you have to que up each and every level. 

NOW what you might see, is someone while playing the game, expanding their skill tree and training low level things every few minutes. When they leave for the night, they would likely que up one of the longer levels, that are further progressed. 

This could potentially provide alleviation towards alt accounts since it would require more active management and something that isnt as easy to do on more accounts, which might dissuade people to having 3+ accounts....

just an idea. 

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@ OP,

 

You know there is SOME way to alleviate this... 

 

If they made training not auto-train the next level... It might require a little fine tuning as to the amount of time things took, but think about it for a little bit... What if each level only took a few minutes to train. I know the LONG levels could take longer, but imagine having 2 or 3 accounts. You couldnt just 100% passively train, you would be forced to constantly cycle through your accounts and never play the game.

 

Currently, you set a "node" or que up something to train, and you can walk away and come back 3-4 days later and a tier 1 is trained correct.

 

What if they adjusted the training time, but made it so you have to que up each and every level. 

 

NOW what you might see, is someone while playing the game, expanding their skill tree and training low level things every few minutes. When they leave for the night, they would likely que up one of the longer levels, that are further progressed. 

 

This could potentially provide alleviation towards alt accounts since it would require more active management and something that isnt as easy to do on more accounts, which might dissuade people to having 3+ accounts....

 

just an idea. 

Damn dude, that would be just freaking annoying... seriously, not worth it.

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I don't really get the issue with multiple accounts here.

 

I don't see a significant difference between having three accounts - one to harvest, one to craft, and one to wear the fruits of the others' labors - and..just being in a guild that has specialized harvesters and crafters.

 

Like, I understand why people don't want to be shut out of the combat aspect that is central to the game if they decide to become a skilled crafter - I agree entirely with that, and think that the system they are using right now runs the risk of hitting that exact issue - but I think that until we see just how impactful the system is and how much of that issue can be alleviated with balance changes, it's pointless to debate that point. What I don't think is irrelevant is why a person has to be able to do EVERYTHING themselves.

 

Like, if they moved all of the direct combat aspects of the universal tree into the archetypes - making all the skills that increased your skill at arms to the specific archetype you're using - you could still only train one harvesting OR one crafting skill. You as a single player are still going to be using twice as much time in total by trying to specialize in two full-time jobs. Why not just make a friend who can do the thing you can't? Saves you money, saves you time, yields the same end result.

 

Edit: tl;dr - while I am not opposed to having multiple accounts, I also fail to see how it is particularly beneficial the way the game is currently implemented. Why does it matter if you as an individual can do several different things? That's what guilds are for. It sounds like you've spent more money instead of making more friends. That's fine. Why should I care?

Edited by goose

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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I don't really get the issue with multiple accounts here.

 

I don't see a significant difference between having three accounts - one to harvest, one to craft, and one to wear the fruits of the others' labors - and..just being in a guild that has specialized harvesters and crafters.

 

Like, I understand why people don't want to be shut out of the combat aspect that is central to the game if they decide to become a skilled crafter - I agree entirely with that, and think that the system they are using right now runs the risk of hitting that exact issue - but I think that until we see just how impactful the system is and how much of that issue can be alleviated with balance changes, it's pointless to debate that point. What I don't think is irrelevant is why a person has to be able to do EVERYTHING themselves.

 

Like, if they moved all of the direct combat aspects of the universal tree into the archetypes - making all the skills that increased your skill at arms to the specific archetype you're using - you could still only train one harvesting OR one crafting skill. You as a single player are still going to be using twice as much time in total by trying to specialize in two full-time jobs. Why not just make a friend who can do the thing you can't? Saves you money, saves you time, yields the same end result.

 

Edit: tl;dr - while I am not opposed to having multiple accounts, I also fail to see how it is particularly beneficial the way the game is currently implemented. Why does it matter if you as an individual can do several different things? That's what guilds are for. It sounds like you've spent more money instead of making more friends. That's fine. Why should I care?

Agreed and I would say even if one person have a crafting account, a harvester account and a fighter account, they still wont be as good as one that got one account for one specific fact only all other things being equal simply because they have to spilt their own time to learn each of the system fully. So if you have 2 accounts, you only have half the time to learn to fight affectively than the guy with one account specialised in fighting, all other things being equal (having the same amount of total time, have trained the same amount of skills have same gear etc etc)

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