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ACE Q&A for December 2016 - Official discussion thread

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I know you don't take Q&A from this peasant forum but...

 

How do you track player submitted bugs and feedback internally in the long term after the forum threads? (e.g. software used / QA lead?)

 

How much internal testing do you tend to do? (er...especially before patches...cough this weekend)

 

Have you considered showing what bugs or feedback have been submitted and what is being worked on, confirmed as fixed for next build or unable to reproduce?

 

(cough camelot unchained user/developer cards or any public facing bug tracking solution e.g. mantis)

 

as a lot of the times it feels like we are repeating ourselves for months, and then you will turn around and seem like your only just reading something for the first time if any response whatsoever. really hard to tell what is being read or logged.

 

p.s. When will you review the mechanics used in charged projectile powers such as Bows or the Druid's Gaea's Wail power?

 

Any lucid, calm, non snarky, and well written post is always candidate for answering.

 

As a team we all try and do a group playtest everyday we have a good build. Each developer is also checking stuff out as they are implementing. (However, the game is getting so big there are always going to be bugs we miss) Since BW launched we have been doing an update near every Friday. This means code written on Thursday or even that morning might be included. (normally stuff put in that late is to fix showstopper bugs we found in internal playtesting) We also have 2 guys who playtest all day and enter bugs into the system all day.

We have hundreds of bugs in JIRA, and more get added every weekend. Unfortunately we just can't stop like we did in sprint 9 and do nothing but bugs. We must keep making forward progress and this means bugs linger for awhile. On the positive side we try to get a few fixed every week.

 

Here's an old video from 1.1 days that shows how bugs are handled. (about the first 10 min of the video that goes over sprint 9)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MkS2WyzVQM

 

As you saw in the video even easy bugs can chew up a couple of hours, and that adds up. Then are elusive bugs like the crafting "take" bug which we are having a hard time tracking down how to reproduce. Finally we have bugs that we just won't fix because a new system is replacing an existing system or UI. (like lobby UI, we decided to stop doing anything to the lobby because the entire current lobby is getting thrown away for the new vessel based lobby. Any time spent fixing bugs is just lost time when you throw the current one away)

There are many more of you than us, writing many more posts than we can even read. We are going to miss entire threads, unfortunately. There is only so much time in the day, and we try to use it as best as possible.

 

For the final category, there are going to be areas where we just don't agree. You might think it is a bug, we think of it as intended and or good enough to ship. Because you think it is a bug, you add it to every post, and these issues start to piles up in the posts, eventually filling posts with many things we don't plan on changing. I wish we had time to respond to them all, we do try to cover some of these in our Q&A videos when we can.

here's an example:

Forum Post: "it takes too long for ranger to tray swap!" 

Us: It takes .75 seconds to tray swap right now. It is as fast as we can make it without introducing bugs or even worse gameplay problems. Any faster than .75s and we end up with bugs where powers don't populate on the tray UI elements when you swap, and more importantly people spam pressing overlap the timer and ending up right back in the tray they just left.  

 

Hope that helps!


Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
Follow us on Twitter 
@CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook
 

 

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I like the idea behind that post Blair.  I like what you guys are doing. 

 

But, let's not pretend ranger bugs come down to a long swap.

 

We literally couldn't use melee skills. There was something VERY broken with ranger melee skills; they did literally nothing.  So when you can't use melee skills, and bow-shots are like...entirely random given charge time, projectile speed, and server realities...it's not about the tray swap.

 

My only way to play was to spam LMB on melee and eventually use my sustain (which, btw, was pretty beast - Ranger is actually the best boxer class).  Pretty much sucks at anything else.

 

Don't act like we've been saying "OMG it takes so long to swap!"

 

We are testing ranger for you. It's broken.

 

 

Hope that helps!

Edited by Cejo

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Forum Post: "it takes too long for ranger to tray swap!" 

Us: It takes .75 seconds to tray swap right now. It is as fast as we can make it without introducing bugs or even worse gameplay problems. Any faster than .75s and we end up with bugs where powers don't populate on the tray UI elements when you swap, and more importantly people spam pressing overlap the timer and ending up right back in the tray they just left.  

 

Hope that helps!

 

Seems like a misunderstanding. I believe the common complaint is that the incurred cooldown on the abilities in the new tray after a swap is too high.

Edited by Effeh

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...You might think it is a bug, we think of it as intended and or good enough to ship...

 

Please give us a -better- way of reporting bugs than through the posts on this forum. It's coming across that you are missing a -lot- of the bug reports and I don't think that is the case. 

 

​It's not a viable solution to use posts, where bugs are 'hidden' in a lot of text, making you spend hours reading.  Only to get things lost in translation, and intrepitation.

 

(edit : Ranger bugs - it's NOT about the tray. http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/14531-sat-december-10-–-mon-december-12-bugs-anomalies-and-tech-issues-feedback/page-8)

Edited by Soulreaver

Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

Gathering of Ranger videos

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Any lucid, calm, non snarky, and well written post is always candidate for answering.

 

As a team we all try and do a group playtest everyday we have a good build. Each developer is also checking stuff out as they are implementing. (However, the game is getting so big there are always going to be bugs we miss) Since BW launched we have been doing an update near every Friday. This means code written on Thursday or even that morning might be included. (normally stuff put in that late is to fix showstopper bugs we found in internal playtesting) We also have 2 guys who playtest all day and enter bugs into the system all day.

We have hundreds of bugs in JIRA, and more get added every weekend. Unfortunately we just can't stop like we did in sprint 9 and do nothing but bugs. We must keep making forward progress and this means bugs linger for awhile. On the positive side we try to get a few fixed every week.

 

Here's an old video from 1.1 days that shows how bugs are handled. (about the first 10 min of the video that goes over sprint 9)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MkS2WyzVQM

 

As you saw in the video even easy bugs can chew up a couple of hours, and that adds up. Then are elusive bugs like the crafting "take" bug which we are having a hard time tracking down how to reproduce. Finally we have bugs that we just won't fix because a new system is replacing an existing system or UI. (like lobby UI, we decided to stop doing anything to the lobby because the entire current lobby is getting thrown away for the new vessel based lobby. Any time spent fixing bugs is just lost time when you throw the current one away)

There are many more of you than us, writing many more posts than we can even read. We are going to miss entire threads, unfortunately. There is only so much time in the day, and we try to use it as best as possible.

 

For the final category, there are going to be areas where we just don't agree. You might think it is a bug, we think of it as intended and or good enough to ship. Because you think it is a bug, you add it to every post, and these issues start to piles up in the posts, eventually filling posts with many things we don't plan on changing. I wish we had time to respond to them all, we do try to cover some of these in our Q&A videos when we can.

here's an example:

Forum Post: "it takes too long for ranger to tray swap!" 

Us: It takes .75 seconds to tray swap right now. It is as fast as we can make it without introducing bugs or even worse gameplay problems. Any faster than .75s and we end up with bugs where powers don't populate on the tray UI elements when you swap, and more importantly people spam pressing overlap the timer and ending up right back in the tray they just left.  

 

Hope that helps!

 

Thank you for the response, just curious about your process, thanks for sharing some details (that video was before I joined the testing)

 

I understand the issue of man power and scale of bugs versus also developing new features as well as not considering everything we report to be an issue requiring change.

 

I also appreciate how difficult and time consuming both reproducing and then resolving bugs can be - I have worked as a software bug tester and resolver.

 


 
p.s. in your specific example with regards to tray swapping - that however is in fact a UI bug that misleads less experienced players in many cases.

 

for both the Ranger and Druid tray swap:

  • even though the swap takes 0.75 seconds
  • once your new power tray reappears all skills *appear* to have a 2 second cooldown timer on all of them
  • but can in fact still be used instantly ignoring this apparent 2 second cooldown period.
  • Players that are not aware of this will wait until the UI tells them they can use the powers instead of instantly [so waiting ~3 seconds per swap]
  • While experienced players know they can infact use the powers much much faster than the UI indicates
see example image slide show demonstrating this slice by slice for both ranger and druid

 

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1kpDx0wEA6rQsAYhQQB3OvozaXf0XsCH_0JeeBzczwmY/pub?start=false&loop=false&delayms=60000

 


 

there is a related misleading UI bug when under a suppress effect. 

 

the UI "shatter" effect indicates that all powers, including C powers, are disabled. 

 

However you can in fact still activate C powers while suppressed 

 

(presumably as intended for C powers).

 

http://imgur.com/a/XR0Ei

Edited by Tinnis

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Apparently, it was just the perception that was wrong. I appreciate the time it took to respond to Tinnis.

 

Although for issues like tray swapping i would suggest looking at it from another angle.

 

Theres the power combo system that in my opinion, is hardly even being utilized. In most cases(not all) the first or even second ability leading to the third is all but useless. If you were to remove the tray swapping and instead integrate the abilities to combo chains leading to a option for a ranged or a melee but potentially requiring a different resource it would greatly smooth out the class.

 

Same thing with the druid, a more efficient use of the combo powers would eliminate the need for tray swapping.


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I would avoid systems that are "more obnoxious" if you don't pay money for VIP, that is a great way to anger your player base.

 

I would argue that all of Extra Credit's videos on Free to Play games would also apply to Crowfall because it is free to play once you buy it...

 

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Any lucid, calm, non snarky, and well written post is always candidate for answering.

 

...

 

Interesting, so saying the game sucks, its lame and Devs need to be fired probably isn't the best way to give feedback and get a response. How novel. ;)

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I'm sure Tyrant told us to "give them hell" on the forums, relating to feedback! I'm all confusleded now.

Do we have to go back to being nice guys?

 

Fluffy bunny rabbits, soft clouds with blue sky backgrounds and the sun peeking out from behind the horizon.

Take bug, offer to test, offer to spend lots of time showing you, offer to use a debug client.

1million VIP subs at launch, 11/10hype rating on MMORPG.com, long vacations in Hawaii surrounded by unlimited supplies of beer and bacon.

 

Sugar coated, now lets get on with it! :-)


"Proud" owner of the domains : http://www.crowfall2.com and http://www.guinecean.com

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Interesting, so saying the game sucks, its lame and Devs need to be fired probably isn't the best way to give feedback and get a response. How novel. ;)

Sadly... alot of people are stupidly doing that.

 

It's a freaking alpha... but people don't realize what it means.

AND even telling them "it will be a bloodbath, no playing a fun game, bugs and alpha stuff" ... and then you get hate filled salty messages on your Q&A's and forums.

That "Lagg! Unplayable! Everyone kills me! After 4 deaths i quit! Want my money back!" spout this xD.

 

It's fine if they state the observations, why it lagged or that they died duo an bug (like the infernal immortal damage orbs and bombs a few weeks ago).

Constructive feedback ^^.

 

I find it amusing to a certain degree. But still so sad mostly ...

Good for us is, that the Dev's aren't cowtowing to the pressure of a few individuals with loud voices.

 

And before someone says, they made an EK map for carebears.

No they probably didn't. It's there to test stuff before the import/export. So actually that "non agression" maps work as designed.

And help newbies have they're peace, when they want to just try out the basics.

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Forum Post: "it takes too long for ranger to tray swap!" 

Us: It takes .75 seconds to tray swap right now. It is as fast as we can make it without introducing bugs or even worse gameplay problems. Any faster than .75s and we end up with bugs where powers don't populate on the tray UI elements when you swap, and more importantly people spam pressing overlap the timer and ending up right back in the tray they just left.  

 

This is awesome to know. I'll shut up about it now (assuming there is a similar technical limitation for Druid). It sucks for us, because that delay is extremely off-putting, but knowing this somehow makes me feel better about it.

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Sadly... alot of people are stupidly doing that.

 

It's a freaking alpha... but people don't realize what it means.

AND even telling them "it will be a bloodbath, no playing a fun game, bugs and alpha stuff" ... and then you get hate filled salty messages on your Q&A's and forums.

That "Lagg! Unplayable! Everyone kills me! After 4 deaths i quit! Want my money back!" spout this xD.

I don't know such individuals but I am sure they will return to the game later if they like an idea. Perhaps, they will spread a bad word somewhere else, but it will be of avail as they have to state what the game is supposed to be to make a sense.  These people are not pleasant but they can do minimal casualities.


Mercenary guild is recruiting. Send me a message if you are interested.

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Interesting, so saying the game sucks, its lame and Devs need to be fired probably isn't the best way to give feedback and get a response. How novel. ;)

 

You shouldn't criticize the people; but the ideas--absolutely.  What the heck are we doing if we are not pointing out issues (current and potential), critiquing ideas and offering suggestions?  Criticize constructively but, by Gygax's beard, criticize if you feel it is necessary.      


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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You shouldn't criticize the people; but the ideas--absolutely.  What the heck are we doing if we are not pointing out issues (current and potential), critiquing ideas and offering suggestions?  Criticize constructively but, by Gygax's beard, criticize if you feel it is necessary.      

Not sure if you missed my point or I misunderstood yours, but point I was making in a joking manner was that yes by all means feedback and criticize its what we are here for but the less constructive it is the less its likely to be taken seriously.

 

Personally I never criticize the feedback itself ,discuss and debate it yes, but critique the manner in which its given, absolutely. i just don't think its too much to ask to remain constructive and civil, especially when we are trying to help the game get made which we obviously all care about or we wouldn't be here to begin with.

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I think thralls, crafting tables, and factories won't even get tested until alpha. There's too much broken stuff to fix already in BW.


Honestly, you are the type of person that is much to competitive, has zero compassion for other people and think you are better than everyone else. You likely love to troll people on a day to day bases to get others angry and laugh about it. You make playing any online game unfun for everyone else.  -Kuroaka

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Nah, i dunno. It looked more like he either didn't sleep well lately or like he is preparing to advertise the forgemaster as, uhm, soon as possible. He already did it for the assassin. So who knows.

 

However, merry crowsmith.

 

Thralls I agree with, however, there's a bunch of talents that just became available related to factories

 

(Also, the economic loop is fundamentally broken with out mass production and testing this seems to be a priority)


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"The cinnabar is a lie"

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