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tsp_maj

Flawed Logic Is Flawed

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I'm concerned that the game is taking a dangerous turn in terms of combat.  Before I go too far I'll admit that they did a good job of being just obscure enough about their plans to not kill all hope for combat in Crowfall.  Those that know me know that I'm a guild vs guild advocate, and I look at what has been offered in that context.

 

Pure action based combat is detrimental to guild vs guild combat.  What I mean by action based, is that you must "aim" your abilities be them offensive, defensive or support oriented.  MMOs in general have made a dramatic move towards more action based combat and in my opinion players have reacted with a spike in excitement followed by empty servers and a lack of interest.  Somehow "action" based combat has got this reputation for being more exciting and more skill based. 

 

Your ability "aim" is a skill granted, but just the simple requirement to aim every skill dumbs down guild vs guild combat dramatically.  Guild vs guild combat at its best is more about survival than it is killing the enemy group.  As everyone knows the best defense is a good offense but an offensive strategy is not as simple as /attack.  There are so many potential skills that require tactics, skill and strategy rather than /aim /shoot.  I fear that many of these skills are choked out by "action" combat. 

 

The developers claim that healing artificially inflates health bars, and that its a PVE ability.  Healing deepens guild vs guild combat like no other ability, its the ying to the yang,  damage vs counter damage.  Healing also introduces a whole group of abilities that increase or decrease healing.  Healers overpowering the damage you're doing?  Silence the healers, healing debuff the target, buff your dps, or use a healing siphon ability perhaps. 

 

What I'm trying to say is that I hope your lack of interest in combat healing is not a premonition for how you feel about support based roles.  I urge you to play test healing classes as an option before you simply make a dangerous decision based on flawed logic. 

Edited by tsp_maj

Maj, Keeper of Da Plank - The Shipwrecked Pirates

 

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Since i remember your guild from Darkfall (i play a siege against your guild in Yssam), i'm surprised that you are so obsessed why the medic role. In DF you have self healing and conversions (mana to stamina, stamina to health, health to mana), i prefer this way honestly with support roles.

 

Also more healing you put in, more TTK and long battles increases, Darkfall1 TTK was ok and even without a healer two skilled players last for 5-9 minutes untill someone finish the stamina or make a mistake.

Edited by kdchan

Archduchess Alice

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Since i remember your guild from Darkfall (i play a siege against your guild in Yssam), i'm surprised that you are so obsessed why the medic role. In DF you have self healing and conversions (mana to stamina, stamina to health, health to mana), i prefer this way honestly with support roles.

 

Also more healing you put in, more TTK and long battles increases, Darkfall1 TTK was ok and even without a healer two skilled players last for 5-9 minutes untill someone finish the stamina or make a mistake.

 

The answer is simple, the word "Self" shouldn't exist in a guild vs guild warfare.  Classes should compliment each others weaknesses instead of each person taking care of himself. 

Edited by tsp_maj

Maj, Keeper of Da Plank - The Shipwrecked Pirates

 

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  Classes should compliment each others weaknesses instead of each person taking care of himself. 

I am in agreement with this, and also your OP. I fear that action combat will kill the level of strategy in GvG or at least hinder the strategy to the level where persons individual capabilities exceed the teamwork requirement, as I prefer GvG to be about your skills as a group, not everyones individual capabilities. Of course individual skill should matter, but it shouldn't exceed the skill ceiling of working as a guild / group.

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I am in agreement with this, and also your OP. I fear that action combat will kill the level of strategy in GvG or at least hinder the strategy to the level where persons individual capabilities exceed the teamwork requirement, as I prefer GvG to be about your skills as a group, not everyones individual capabilities. Of course individual skill should matter, but it shouldn't exceed the skill ceiling of working as a guild / group.

 

I hope more people within our community stand up and try to influence a change.  Thanks for your contribution.  Well said.


Maj, Keeper of Da Plank - The Shipwrecked Pirates

 

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I guess there's a line to be drawn.

 

I'd hate being killed 1vs2/3/4/5 only because players can heal each others to be honest.

Depends on what mechanics the game has: As mentioned in OP, there are multiple possibilities for countering healing, such as healing mantles, healing leeches etc. If your character lacks them, well he isn't exactly a 1 v many viable toon to begin with.

 

I don't care for massive battles, I much prefer 1v1, 1v2, 2v2, etc battles because i find all the fun of PvP in the individual skill. And the idea of individual skill ties in very well it aim based combat. 

I really don't see why, it only hinders the combat capabilities of people who cannot aim. But once everyone has learned to aim properly (it's merely a factor of muscle memory and reflexes) the skill ceiling reaches its hard cap, and becomes obsolete. Take UT / Quake, the difference between the best and the excellent players wasn't factored by their aiming, but their wits.

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But i dislike classes, i prefer no classes and no levels, you pick up the weapon you like and you build up your character around this weapon. Yes we have archetypes here, but weapons aren't restricted.

 

I hope more people within our community stand up and try to influence a change.  Thanks for your contribution.  Well said.

 

So, with this logic, devs should listen and change their vision into a carebear paradise since lots of people dislike pvp and prefer gathering in peace.

Trying to change the core of the game is the same crap that ruin UO and SWG, because loud people complain of gankers.

 

No thanks.

Edited by kdchan

Archduchess Alice

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I don't care for massive battles, I much prefer 1v1, 1v2, 2v2, etc battles because i find all the fun of PvP in the individual skill. And the idea of individual skill ties in very well it aim based combat. 

 

If all I cared about was 1v1 - 2v2 battles than I would agree with you, the proposed system would probably be pretty good, I have my eyes set on greater glory though.  There are many different types of skills in the world.  I assume you find yourself good at "twitch" based FPS style skills.  You only need to look as far as games like League of Legends and StarCraft to see that skill comes In many forms.  (Im not advocating either of those games)


Maj, Keeper of Da Plank - The Shipwrecked Pirates

 

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If all I cared about was 1v1 - 2v2 battles than I would agree with you, the proposed system would probably be pretty good, I have my eyes set on greater glory though.  There are many different types of skills in the world.  I assume you find yourself good at "twitch" based FPS style skills.  You only need to look as far as games like League of Legends and StarCraft to see that skill comes In many forms.  (Im not advocating either of those games)

 

Then there are different types of games. Take Rocket League / SARPBC. It's the ultimate skill based game, there are zero factors in the game that isn't up to the players, as its completely based on physics. Individual skills matter a ton in the game, but if you as individual cannot co-operate with your team mate(s) (the game modes are 1v1 - 4v4) you cannot succeed in the game (assuming the opponents aren't your typical average players in that game, because in that case you'll stomp them 12-0). It's because of the environment, and I want MMORPGs to be environment where team's skills > players individual skills, no matter the numbers. Even in 2v2 the team strategy should excel over individual strategy.

Edited by nehemia

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But i dislike classes, i prefer no classes and no levels, you pick up the weapon you like and you build up your character around this weapon. Yes we have archetypes here, but weapons aren't restricted.

 

 

So, with this logic, devs should listen and change their vision into a carebear paradise since lots of people dislike pvp and prefer gathering in peace.

Trying to change the core of the game is the same crap that ruin UO and SWG, because loud people complain of gankers.

 

No thanks.

 

Your disagreement with classes is a completely different subject.  If you're talking about a skill based game then Id still prefer that these types of skills existed to be chosen and raised.

 

I cant speak for everyone, but my experience is that listening to everyones opinion, seeing all options, and than coming to a conclusion for myself is the best way to be successful.  If enough people realize that this combat system could be a mistake, perhaps the devs will notice and change it before its too late.  Ultimately its their decision, we can just try to aid them along the way. 

 

 


Maj, Keeper of Da Plank - The Shipwrecked Pirates

 

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Then there are different types of games. Take Rocket League / SARPBC. It's the ultimate skill based game, there are zero factors in the game that isn't up to the players, as its completely based on physics. Individual skills matter a ton in the game, but if you as individual cannot co-operate with your team mate(s) (the game modes are 1v1 - 4v4) you cannot succeed in the game (assuming the opponents aren't your typical average players in that game, because in that case you'll stomp them 12-0). It's because of the environment, and I want MMORPGs to be environment where team's skills > players individual skills, no matter the numbers. Even in 2v2 the team strategy should excel over individual strategy.

 

I don't know anything about those games, but I couldn't agree more with team's skill > players individual skills.  A group should be greater than the sum of its parts.


Maj, Keeper of Da Plank - The Shipwrecked Pirates

 

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My opinions on action based combat:

 

It is not that the players should mash their buttons quickly, but rather make decisions quickly. If the game becomes a motorical challenge, either that motorical skill is what the game is about on some level (like FPS games) or the design has an "interface problem". Player wants to do some actions and executing those actions using the interface becomes such a challenge that the interface interaction phase becomes a considerable component of skill. Suppose fantasy based MMORPG can be about sword swinging accuracy with a mouse similarly to crosshairs placement accuracy with a mouse in FPS games.

 

I think it's important to think about what is it actually that produces a feeling of involvement.

 

Is it the motorical challenge of mastering the interface or is it having to choose between consequential actions?

 

 

 

 

 

My opinions on downplay of healing abilities:

 

Perhaps the simple "add X health points to target" type mechanics are too simple and straightforward. Maybe trying to move towards a different kind of direction of defensive abilities is a good idea. Haven't really thought about this all that much.

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Your disagreement with classes is a completely different subject.  If you're talking about a skill based game then Id still prefer that these types of skills existed to be chosen and raised.

 

I cant speak for everyone, but my experience is that listening to everyones opinion, seeing all options, and than coming to a conclusion for myself is the best way to be successful.  If enough people realize that this combat system could be a mistake, perhaps the devs will notice and change it before its too late.  Ultimately its their decision, we can just try to aid them along the way. 

 

 

 

No you just try to apply your own vision to everyone, i disagree with you, so no thanks.


Archduchess Alice

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Personally concerned about this "skill" based combat too, ever tried playing Counter strike on a 100 man server... ever wonder why there is no 100 man server... latency kills skill based games and for an MMO it's very worrying that they're possibly going this direction with regards to targeting.

 

I hands down much preferred the combat of selecting a target and choosing skills to perform rather than using WASD and jumping about all over people queuing up 1-9 while they moved about and lagged all over the place.

 

I loved Shadowbane combat where it was a thinking mans game rather than a hectic no-feedback hack n slash like rift/wow, although saying that, Aion had some good moments, but again it was completely spoiled by people jumping and strafing about and looked like an awful combat animation from someone's first grade animation class.

 

This all being said, if the combat is skill based similar to something like DOTA/LOL then I can see this being very very exiting! where targeting is point/click and animations/skills are triggered when in range or on command in a direction or ON the player. Comabt in Dota is sublime, and seeing something like this with the scale of shadowbane would be awesome!

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Myself and several of my friends are concerned about the "action combat" announcement as well. Our experience with recent action combat based MMO's has us worried. There just always feels like something is missing in large group encounters. Even when victorious it doesn't feel like "the group" really accomplished anything. Group combat felt as though it had been distilled down into multiple individual battles occurring simultaneously.

 

Also not a single action mmo has been able to handle latency well enough to accommodate melee properly. There are always those moments where you swing and "should' have hit but sword just passes through your target. That negates much of the skill required immediately. Also the "no trinity" aspect severely reduces the amount of people willing to be melee(or needed to be melee) in group combat.

 

 

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People who are worried about latency in action MMOs need to go and look at Darkfall Online, which had 1000+ player sieges, with twitch melee combat and archery - within a game that was essentially put together by a Greek company that did 3 day weeks, and took an obscenely long lunch 'hour' .

 

If that company get put together the net code to support twitch based melee and archery with 1k+ people within the same square kilometer, then no company has any excuse not to. The combat in Darkfall worked, there were some issues of course. But 95% of the time it worked to a decent enough standard.

 

Further on, the idea that action based combat detracts from grand stratergy is something I can understand. Yes, you do lose some strategic elements, but you also gain others. Just keeping track and not getting 'pulled away' from your group by the flow of battle is hard enough.

 

There is a far more realistic sense of actually being in a battle, because everything is so much more confused. I've flanked an enemy force that had at least 5x our number, and they've retreated because we punched right into the middle of their group and caused complete chaos.

 

If you haven't already, go and watch some videos of Darkfall Online sieges - this will give you an idea of what action combat in an MMO is like. Saying it removes from strategy isn't true, it's just a different type of strategy that didn't have the means to exsist in other MMOs.

 

Action combat, done properly in a siege, has trumped any other gaming experience I've had - I dearly hope you all get to experience that rush with Crowfall.

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People who are worried about latency in action MMOs need to go and look at Darkfall Online, which had 1000+ player sieges, with twitch melee combat and archery - within a game that was essentially put together by a Greek company that did 3 day weeks, and took an obscenely long lunch 'hour' .

 

If that company get put together the net code to support twitch based melee and archery with 1k+ people within the same square kilometer, then no company has any excuse not to. The combat in Darkfall worked, there were some issues of course. But 95% of the time it worked to a decent enough standard.

Edited by Miskal

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Oops messed up that reply on my phone.

 

Darkfall is one of the games that I personally use as evidence that twitch based + MMO has not been done correctly yet. DF worked sometimes but honestly if your attack is EVER missed due to latency then the whole "skill based" concept is nullified.

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