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Ricco96

Arrows inventory

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4 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

Like i said all you need is one crafter and money. It is not that hard.

I have to agree with VN, you guys are just being lazy and want to have things easy.

You can't have it both ways - you can't say 'oh we'll make crafting easy' while also saying those who don't want crafting want an easy game. Crafting arrows simply doesn't change the difficulty to playing. There is no skill involved in crafting arrows, it is an arbitrary task that doesn't bring any actual benefit. I am not looking for an 'easy' game, I am looking for a GOOD game. One which uses elegant and efficient mechanics as a form of communication to players to actually ATTRACT people to WANT to play that class. If you want to add a 'but' to a class, you better come with a justification to why that pain point HAS to exist. 

Edited by Diage

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4 minutes ago, Diage said:

You can't have it both ways - you can't say 'oh we'll make crafting easy' while also saying those who don't want crafting want an easy game. Crafting arrows simply doesn't change the difficulty to playing. There is no skill involved in crafting arrows, it is an arbitrary task that doesn't bring any actual benefit. I am not looking for an 'easy' game, I am looking for a GOOD game. One which uses elegant and efficient mechanics as a form of communication to players to actually ATTRACT people to WANT to play that class. If you want to add a 'but' to a class, you better come with a justification to why that pain point HAS to exist. 

In combat, the ability to manage your resources is important.  Giving people many things to manage is another way to test their situational awareness/adaptive abilities/etc.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I support crafting arrows because the Ranger is both melee and ranged--think of it kind of like the Druids essence mechanic.  In addition (and personally), I loathe the skating, infinite arrow, kiting ganker's wet dream which is normally the ranger/archer class in other games (this is what the Confessor is for).     

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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11 minutes ago, Diage said:

You can't have it both ways - you can't say 'oh we'll make crafting easy' while also saying those who don't want crafting want an easy game. Crafting arrows simply doesn't change the difficulty to playing. There is no skill involved in crafting arrows, it is an arbitrary task that doesn't bring any actual benefit. I am not looking for an 'easy' game, I am looking for a GOOD game. One which uses elegant and efficient mechanics as a form of communication to players to actually ATTRACT people to WANT to play that class. If you want to add a 'but' to a class, you better come with a justification to why that pain point HAS to exist. 

?

Will you be a crafter? I think the point here is rangers and arrows. The point is that crafting should be ignored for this discussion.

Can you get arrows easily? YES. So i dont see the problem, you dont even need to get close to a crafting station for that.

Is crafting arrows boring? Who cares! Give the crafter money and he will give you arrows!

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44 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

In combat, the ability to manage your resources is important.  Giving people many things to manage is another way to test their situational awareness/adaptive abilities/etc.

So the Ranger will be the one class above all others that will take the most "ability to manage your resources" and  "situational awareness/adaptive abilities/etc"? In your and others logic then the Ranger is the only non "easy mode" class in the game as no other classes require reagents to play. If not wanting a reagent to play the class makes one lazy and want easy mode then it also stands that if you don't play a Ranger you also are lazy and want easy mode, just using the same logic you and others are applying here.  

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3 minutes ago, pang said:

So the Ranger will be the one class above all others that will take the most "ability to manage your resources" and  "situational awareness/adaptive abilities/etc"? In your and others logic then the Ranger is the only non "easy mode" class in the game as no other classes require reagents to play. If not wanting a reagent to play the class makes one lazy and want easy mode then it also stands that if you don't play a Ranger you also are lazy and want easy mode, just using the same logic you and others are applying here.  

I actually already suggested casters get reagents along with this.  Please read the thread properly.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Just now, VIKINGNAIL said:

I actually already suggested casters get reagents along with this.  Please read the thread properly.

Was also addressing others in the thread as well as the current topic of reagents for Ranger. If you have any actual points to make on the post I made feel free to do so.

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Just now, pang said:

Was also addressing others in the thread as well as the current topic of reagents for Ranger. If you have any actual points to make on the post I made feel free to do so.

You quoted me, tried to argue against my points with hyperbole, but you need to read the thread thoroughly.  The points have already been made.  Your response does not hold up because I've suggested them opening up the reagents to other classes as well. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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From Tinnis :

`To equip a ranger in advanced weapons takes 141 resources

To equip a confessor in advanced weapons takes 68 resources

To equip a single bundle of 250 arrows takes 18 resources

A single bundle of 250 arrows is the equilivant of 26% a confessor book`


Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

Gathering of Ranger videos

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15 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

You quoted me.... 

My mistake to begin with clearly.

Besides only time we ever see the "all classes should have reagents" point made is when Ranger Arrows are discussed. So yeah that doesn't really hold up either. Fact remains as of NOW the only class in CF that will have reagents is the Ranger, that's what I was replying to. So if you want to discuss how it makes sense that one class will be so called hard mode and rest easy mode based on logic used by posters in this thread please do so.

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2 minutes ago, pang said:

My mistake to begin with clearly.

Besides only time we ever see the "all classes should have reagents" point made is when Ranger Arrows are discussed. So yeah that doesn't really hold up either. Fact remains as of NOW the only class in CF that will have reagents is the Ranger, that's what I was replying to. So if you want to discuss how it makes sense that one class will be so called hard mode and rest easy mode based on logic used by posters in this thread please do so.

Well classes aren't meant to be equal.  Maybe one class has more logistics as far as resource management, maybe another class has harder to land attacks, etc etc.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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From Tinnis - Part 2

 

`it takes ~5 minutes and 40 seconds to harvest and craft 250 arrows [without craft failures - 3 chances. gated behind two harvesting and two crafting types]

it takes ~2 minutes and 45 seconds to spend 250 arrows [it could be faster]

10 arrows equal ~1% of a confessor book durability

1000 arrows equal ~100% of a confessor book durability

A ranger can fire an average of 90 arrows a minute [it could be faster] - so ~9% confessor book durability a minute

In 11.1 minutes a ranger can burn through the equilvant resources to make an advanced confessor book

Do advanced confessor books last for 11.1 minutes of combat? [and then require ~20 minutes to recharge?]

https://youtu.be/1D6VNdraBjI
`


Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

Gathering of Ranger videos

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2 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Well classes aren't meant to be equal.  Maybe one class has more logistics as far as resource management, maybe another class has harder to land attacks, etc etc.

So if your interest to make requiring managing your arrow inventory part of the difficulty of playing ranger, what do you foresee the max stack size of arrows being?

With that question - I also want to take a look at your term for being 'hard.' I would argue with you that a reagent system does not actually make playing the class hard or easy for that matter. In fact, it does not in anyway play into your ability to play that class or character. What it does do is introduce an additional mechanic into the game that required additional work to even get the opportunity to play your character. There is some work expected, but at some point you want to stop making players jump through hoops just so they can take part in your game. When we talk about something being 'hard' we have to be careful with how that's implemented and what that means for the overall health of the system in question. Lets use an example, this is a bit of an exaggeration, but look past that for a moment. Lets say we create a new class whose mechanic is that it has a .1% accuracy. However, whenever it hits, it kills what it hits. This would definitely be considered a 'hard' class, if not possibly the hardest. Seeing how only 1 out of 1000 auto attacks would actually hit, but you would kill them. The issue here being this mechanic is not fun to play with or against. We can start stacking mechanic upon mechanic upon mechanic onto a game to make it impossibly difficult to play and you would have your wish. However, no one would play it because it would not be enjoyable. You have to differentiate your goal for how something should be played and a mechanic you want. You should focus on the playstyle, not the mechanic.

You stated, you want a class that requires managing resources, situational awareness, and adaptability. The stated mechanic of implementing arrows can certainly achieve this, but at a considerable cost of making rangers (and potentially other classes) arbitrarily more expensive and time consuming before you get the opportunity to get good at managing resources, acting on situations and adapting (the parts you said were 'fun'.) I would argue a better mechanic which i mentioned earlier would be a preparation. An example of an implementation would be you select the skill to prepare arrows on your bar, a series of combos come up to let you choose which type of arrows you want to prepare, there would be about a 4 second cast time to prepare them and you are given say 250 arrows (max only ever able to have 250 arrows in this example.) Then there is perhaps a 60s cooldown (example.) This hits all of your points without the arbitrary and tedious work of the current implementation. 

Edited by Diage

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1 minute ago, Diage said:

So if your interest to make requiring managing your arrow inventory part of the difficulty of playing ranger, what do you foresee the max stack size of arrows being?

We are in pre-alpha, now is not the time to balance such things. 

With that question - I also want to take a look at your term for being 'hard.' I would argue with you that a reagent system does not actually make playing the class hard or easy for that matter. In fact, it does not in anyway play into your ability to play that class or character. What it does do is introduce an additional mechanic into the game that required additional work to even get the opportunity to play your character. There is some work expected, but at some point you want to stop making players jump through hoops just so they can take part in your game. When we talk about something being 'hard' we have to be careful with how that's implemented and what that means for the overall health of the system in question. Lets use an example, this is a bit of an exaggeration, but look past that for a moment. Lets say we create a new class whose mechanic is that it has a .1% accuracy. However, whenever it hits, it kills what it hits. This would definitely be considered a 'hard' class, if not possibly the hardest. Seeing how only 1 out of 1000 auto attacks would actually hit, but you would kill them. The issue here being this mechanic is not fun to play with or against. We can start stacking mechanic upon mechanic upon mechanic onto a game to make it impossibly difficult to play and you would have your wish. However, no one would play it because it would not be enjoyable. You have to meet that fancy differentiating your goal for how something should be played and a mechanic you want. 

Resource management is a skill as well.  The ranger class with reagents has been around in mmorpgs for a long time, crowfall's version isn't ridiculously tedious, it's more people just want easy mode and convenience.  Also there are plenty of ways to build characters, not having arrows on a ranger doesn't mean you can't play the game.  We don't need to use hyperbole when comparing actual systems to theoretical ones.  Since ACE is not using the hyperbolic hypotheticals.  Any time they add any sort of challenge to the game there are bound to be players complaining, people want things super easy, they've been conditioned towards it for many years in games, and in life in general. 

You stated, you want a class that requires managing resources, situational awareness, and adaptability. The stated mechanic of implementing arrows can certainly achieve this, but at a considerable cost of making rangers (and potentially other classes) arbitrarily more expensive and time consuming before you get the opportunity to get good at managing resources, acting on situations and adapting (the parts you said were 'fun'.) I would argue a better mechanic which i mentioned earlier would be a preparation. An example of an implementation would be you select the skill to prepare arrows on your bar, a series of combos come up to let you choose which type of arrows you want to prepare, there would be about a 4 second cast time to prepare them and you are given say 250 arrows. Then there is perhaps a 60s cooldown (example.) This hits all of your points without the arbitrary and tedious work of the current implementation. 

Managing arrows is just another element of gear.  There are tons of elements of gear in this game.  If you have problems with arrows conceptually you should have problems with the concept of having to work and build up your gear. 

 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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My first question wasn't to differentiate between 200 and 250, it was to differentiate between say hundreds or thousands. One is a balancing question, the other is a conceptual question. Large stack sizes would almost completely remove your argument for wanting to see resource management since that would basically just make rangers the only class that need to make a pit-stop after a couple weeks of playing. The former would make rangers and by extension all bow users, nothing more than an add-on class. You take a bow to augment your melee because it would be impractical to play full range for any extended amount of time without needing to recharge. Sure, the latter would require foresight so you have to decide whether or not I use my arrows now or save them for a time when I could later use them, but the cost for this decision is effectively removing consistent ranger play from the game altogether. You will never see a build that is viable be 100% archer. 

So, either your argument falls flat with large stacks and quantities and there really isn't anything to manage, just a gold and time sink, or your implementation looks to completely invalidate entire play styles, which should not be an option for this game. Said another way, either there is no way to argue a gain or loss in skill or you're pushing the difficulty to play the game into the 'un-fun' region which is why my hyperbole is relevant. 

Edited by Diage

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5 minutes ago, Diage said:

My first question wasn't to differentiate between 200 and 250, it was to differentiate between say hundreds or thousands. One is a balancing question, the other is a conceptual question. Large stack sizes would almost completely remove your argument for wanting to see resource management since that would basically just make rangers the only class that need to make a pit-stop after a couple weeks of playing. The former would make rangers and by extension all bow users, nothing more than an add-on class. You take a bow to augment your melee because it would be impractical to play full range for any extended amount of time without needing to recharge. Sure, the latter would require foresight so you have to decide whether or not I use my arrows now or save them for a time when I could later use them, but the cost for this decision is effectively removing consistent ranger play from the game altogether. You will never see a build that is viable be 100% archer. 

So, either your argument falls flat with large stacks and quantities and there really isn't anything to manage, just a gold and time sink, or your implementation looks to completely invalidate entire play styles, which should not be an option for this game. Said another way, either there is no way to argue a gain or loss in skill or you're pushing the difficulty to play the game into the 'un-fun' region which is why my hyperbole is relevant. 

Again you are being hyperbolic.  Concepts are implemented, and they are balanced, it is not one or the other. 

Un-fun is subjective.  Anyone will find things unfun if they want things easy and then the thing isn't easy. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Just now, VIKINGNAIL said:

Again you are being hyperbolic.  Concepts are implemented, and they are balanced, it is not one or the other. 

Un-fun is subjective.  Anyone will find things unfun if they want things easy and then the thing isn't easy. 

I am not being hyperbolic with the first piece actually. Concepts are implemented, true - they are also discussed. At current the concept that people in this forum are pushing for is the 'pit-stop' ranger. Which would mean in the the thousands. This concept is entirely different than the concept of a low stack size ranger which would actually take consideration to manage your arrows. Only one of these two concepts will be implemented in that the developers will say, 'I intend the resource to be an additional gold sink' or 'I intend the resource to be actively managed.' These two statements drastically alter your implementation and balance. 

And in the traditional term for un-fun, you are correct, that's why it is in quotes. We could go into an entire lengthy discussion about what the term un-fun means in this context, but to clarify I was referring to how the analogy about the .1% accuracy borders on objectively un-fun in that nearly no person would find that enjoyable. 

And here's the funny thing, I actually agree with you in that the second concept stated above would be much more interesting and fun to play with. However, as mentioned, concepts then get implemented. A concept need not have a single implementation. The proposal above (preparations) actually hits the concept perfectly without requiring you to externally pre-quip arrows. In fact, I would argue the preparation is actually far harder to manage and requires more skill than a reagent based arrow implementation ever could. 

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Rangers in midcampaigm are going to be a nightmare to uphold.

 

Its not the cost of arrows.  Its not the size of arrow stacks.  The issue is that the ressource is lootable.  

 

Its a problem that you can't restack batches of arrows of different sorts cause we are running around with small bundles of around 50 or less.  The inflated healthpool which should represent what Armor does have put us right back to when we only had the ability to stack 100 arrows.

 

Presently I use around 10k arrows per weekend.  Look at Tinnis ressource cost of arrows... no other class have this issue.   It will literally mean 1 full loot and the ranger is out of business when the spirit bank is removed.


Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

Gathering of Ranger videos

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When the devs discussed the arrows they said they liked them because they added versatility to the class. You can equip arrows with different types of damage and I think that's cool, but I also think it can be done in a much less tedious way. In looking at how the Assassin will function, I would propose their poison setup simply be mirrored for the Ranger.

If you read the article on the Assassin powers and UI you will see the assassin chooses which type of poison to apply prior to a fight. The Assassin doesn't need to craft these poisons or put them in their inventory. They simply select it in the UI. I think it would make sense to do the same for the ranger. Choose which type of arrows you want to equip in the UI and be done with it.

There is a metric ton of crafting in this game already. I agree with the others who have said it's just too tedious to craft ammunition. Quite simply, it's just not fun. It actually detracts from the fun. When that happens, you have to evaluate what value the feature brings to the game. If the value is the versatility as the devs had stated, then there is a much better way to provide the same versatility. I don't mind full loot, but it really mucks things up for the Ranger if you consider that every time you die you'll have to craft an ass ton of extra arrows (unless we are able to equip more on our character to get it out of the inventory). 

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21 hours ago, Childsbane said:

...

Couldn't agree more - I didn't know assassins had that mechanic, but i mentioned early a preparation mechanic that is pretty much identical to that and adds far more versatility that arrows as physical objects ever could. Especially with the point soulreaver made. If you try to carry multiple types of arrows on you and you die, you lose all the other kinds. Really turns the who versatility argument into more of a facade. 

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