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Ricco96

Arrows inventory

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Are equipped arrows lootable? Still think that when we start seeing big arrows packs people will stop complaining... Just wait...

EDIT:

Also please stop using 'crafting arrows is boring' as a argument! That is beside the point. That is a discussion to the crafting sub. That and the ranger mechanics arent linked...

Edited by BarriaKarl

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Are larger stacks of arrows confirmed? If so, that alleviates some of the angst, but it still doesn't accomplish what the devs set out for with the Ranger's arrows. The idea was versatility, but players aren't going to carry multiple stacks with them because anything not equipped is subject to looting. 

I appreciate the deep crafting system in Crowfall. I don't know if many people are saying crafting arrows is boring, we're saying it's tedious. I can handle doing 10 minutes of boring stuff each evening to enjoy the rest of my night. Many of us, however, are not wanting to endure 10 extra minutes of boring stuff every time we die. That's what makes it tedious. 

I don't see what crafting arrows accomplishes that simply selecting a type of arrow wouldn't apart from contributing to the crafting. I think the biggest difference of opinion is really just over whether or not that contribution is worth the cost (problematic combat/inventory issues disproportionately affecting one class over the others). Some of us embrace it and others don't. There isn't one right answer. Both sides are valid. 

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People are not going to play rangers at first part of any campaign because of the cost and time it will take to get them ready for fighting.  Right now we have everything available but its going to take longer when we don't and there is no point even with out arrows to farm more to get it up and running then add in arrows its even worse.

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5 hours ago, Voluse said:

People are not going to play rangers at first part of any campaign because of the cost and time it will take to get them ready for fighting.  Right now we have everything available but its going to take longer when we don't and there is no point even with out arrows to farm more to get it up and running then add in arrows its even worse.

@My Concern as well.


Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

Gathering of Ranger videos

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On 12/14/2016 at 11:39 AM, blazzen said:

 

I've suggested doing away with crafting arrows as ammo and instead crafting a quiver that would have durability like any other item but the arrows would be unlimited until the quiver broke. The quality and type of quiver would determine the arrows you're using. 

 

No other classes have reagents so why should rangers? 

Agreed. That would be more fair.

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On ‎14‎-‎12‎-‎2016 at 6:39 PM, blazzen said:

 

I've suggested doing away with crafting arrows as ammo and instead crafting a quiver that would have durability like any other item but the arrows would be unlimited until the quiver broke. The quality and type of quiver would determine the arrows you're using. 

 

No other classes have reagents so why should rangers? 

+1

 

Arrows have become a "grind" and even factories and thralls will not remove the problems of them being a lootable ressource.


Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

Gathering of Ranger videos

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the balance between short term combat management and long term resource management does not work.

will get even worse in later tests when full inventory looting [no safe spirit bank] and advanced crafting recipies are locked only to trained crafters and can only take place at set crafting stations (requiring both a woodcrafter AND a blacksmith)

basic arrows are also just slow to make as well [and generally terrible]


personally my (now ancient) suggestion for ammo is:

Quivers as a craftable durability item

Make arrows a bow tray mechanic - like a FPS magazine system

e.g. you have ~30 available arrows [as a UI counter]

when you reach 0 you have to press R to go through a reloading animation for a few seconds [or do this manually] to replenish your arrow count

Edited by Tinnis

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If a quiver is going to be a thing, I think it should be an equip instead of a passive, I don't mind arrows for now, but just think when SB is gone, you die and lose the all arrows you grinded for previously that's going to really gimp ranger beyond normal losses on death. If it were a passive that would put us at yet another disadvantage, unless we played human (4 passive slots) strictly because we would have to sacrifice a passive just to function... Where as if it were an equip with say durability or a stack of 1k with a higher cost to craft or something, I really feel it would even out in the end please consider this @jtoddcoleman!!

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On 6/28/2017 at 11:27 AM, Tinnis said:

...

Honestly, at this point I have yet to see an actual argument for why arrows really should exist as a thing. The only question past that is what do you replace arrows with? I personally still strongly believe a skill would be best, implement a preparation that has a decent timed cool down and gives you a limited stack size or arrows so you will have to manage your arrows in the time period of the cooldown. Use the combo system to let you choose arrow type and you get the adaptability people want as well, move any extra stats into the bow itself to balance it so the arrows don't actually have to be a source of damage. I think a quiver is only marginally better than stacked arrows in that its just another item that lets you customize your character a little further, it really doesn't hit all the fun points of adaptability and etc that people spoke to as being things they would like from the ranger. 

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Ahhh I have to disagree, no disrespect meant here, but I am going to assume you either are new to ranger or don't play the class at all. Making arrows a skill with cool downs would completely break the class in my opinion. Now having a poison/fire/disease/ice skill to apply to arrows would be a different story, but honestly to maximize effectiveness while also maintaining a how (like where are these arrows coming from) a quiver with a durability that is equal to say 1k arrows or something. At least as one of the few avid ranger players that is the opinion that I have come to personally. Maintaining multiple stacks of 250 arrows will be detrimental especially come the removal of spirit bank.

Edited by SoberSoul

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11 hours ago, SoberSoul said:

Ahhh I have to disagree, no disrespect meant here, but I am going to assume you either are new to ranger or don't play the class at all. Making arrows a skill with cool downs would completely break the class in my opinion. Now having a poison/fire/disease/ice skill to apply to arrows would be a different story, but honestly to maximize effectiveness while also maintaining a how (like where are these arrows coming from) a quiver with a durability that is equal to say 1k arrows or something. At least as one of the few avid ranger players that is the opinion that I have come to personally. Maintaining multiple stacks of 250 arrows will be detrimental especially come the removal of spirit bank.

No disrespect at all, dissenting opinions is how you progress ideas. So then what about making it a skill would 'break' the class? And in addition, the preparation direction would most definately open you up to having condition or elemental based arrows (condition makes more sens for a ranger imo.)

 

And yes, ranger is the only class I have played and I will say as a side note, I do not like the entirety of the ranger as it is implemented. I think the melee form is a bit uninspired a cliche for the genre but doesn't hit the mark for what I imagine a ranger would be. So your idea of broken and my idea of broken probably differ by quite a bit, but that's a different discussion entirely. 

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14 hours ago, Diage said:

No disrespect at all, dissenting opinions is how you progress ideas. So then what about making it a skill would 'break' the class? And in addition, the preparation direction would most definately open you up to having condition or elemental based arrows (condition makes more sens for a ranger imo.)

 

And yes, ranger is the only class I have played and I will say as a side note, I do not like the entirety of the ranger as it is implemented. I think the melee form is a bit uninspired a cliche for the genre but doesn't hit the mark for what I imagine a ranger would be. So your idea of broken and my idea of broken probably differ by quite a bit, but that's a different discussion entirely. 

Using a Discipline to accomodate the arrows issue... then you are removing either a major, an ability bar slot or a passive from a class - as the -only- class.  In the current state of things, each passive/major and ability bar slot make quite an impact.  So to get access to arrows by using a disciplne you are actually gimping a class compared to others.

 

Using a discipline is putting a bandaid on an problem. It doesn't remove the problem.. just covers it up.  It doesnt' give the versatility of the 3 different arrow types.  It doesnt remove the very clunky manner of chaging arrows mid combat (open inventory - find the right arrows - right click) with no other class suffers from as well.  I dont know about your gameplay, but mine doesn't have much room for these situations where you remove your eyes from the field of battle.. and I run out of arrows mid fight constantly.

 

Disciplines IMO should -never- be used to change/fix a design of a class, forcing that class to take it to make it viable.  It should be somehting you add to your character for "flavor" so to speak,


Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

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5 hours ago, Soulreaver said:

Disciplines IMO should -never- be used to change/fix a design of a class, forcing that class to take it to make it viable.  It should be somehting you add to your character for "flavor" so to speak,

Exactly! Gathering Discs are a prime example of this. Just a band-aid instead of fixing the problem.

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9 hours ago, Soulreaver said:

Using a Discipline to accomodate the arrows issue... then you are removing either a major, an ability bar slot or a passive from a class - as the -only- class.  In the current state of things, each passive/major and ability bar slot make quite an impact.  So to get access to arrows by using a disciplne you are actually gimping a class compared to others.

 

Using a discipline is putting a bandaid on an problem. It doesn't remove the problem.. just covers it up.  It doesnt' give the versatility of the 3 different arrow types.  It doesnt remove the very clunky manner of chaging arrows mid combat (open inventory - find the right arrows - right click) with no other class suffers from as well.  I dont know about your gameplay, but mine doesn't have much room for these situations where you remove your eyes from the field of battle.. and I run out of arrows mid fight constantly.

 

Disciplines IMO should -never- be used to change/fix a design of a class, forcing that class to take it to make it viable.  It should be somehting you add to your character for "flavor" so to speak,

Not sure if you meant to quote me or not, but i never said anything about a discipline. If you meant to quote me, then I'm afraid your understanding of what i tried to argue for is off mark a bit. 

This would just piggyback any discipline with archer skills in it, not be its own. That is to say, it would be a core mechanic of having a bow. It would be pretty silly to make it a separate discipline. Additionally, It doesn't produce ACTUAL arrows you move in your inventory. It's a reload mechanic that would give you say 250 arrows that apply poison. You use the skill again, it would replace that 250 arrows with a different type. Not an actual object that consumes any inventory. 

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Instead of talk about rangers, with the changes comming I will talk about all bow users.

 

For the past 10 months in Crowfall I have tested the game as a bowuser, exclusively.  The closer to softlaunch we get the greater my concern grows....  especially after the latest live stream : Marks and Todds comments on this issue...... all I can say is : you just earned yourselves target bullseyes on the back from the entire bowuser part of the community.   

Utter lack of seriousness and a grap of the bag answer that was just playing, those who asked this question, for fools.   

---

Issue!  Is there an issue?

So the issue is  when you run out of arrows, for what ever reason, you have 2 options.

 

A - Find a place where you can access your stash (and hope you have some)

B - Craft some.

 

With Option A - So traveling all the way back to such a location is a viable solution to ressource management?  We're not talking 1 minute to get mana here!

 

With Option B - Craft them.  Ok great!  To be a bow user I have to be : "HarvesterOfWoodAndOreAsWellAsCrafterOfWoodAndOreToUseTheDamnThing" i was hoping for BowUser!    Oh wait you need a crafting atation too!!

You are forcing a certain skillset on a player.  Like above this is not a 1 minute to gain mana task.

 

Both situations you are forcing a player for an extended period of time out of combat.  How long? Tinnis made a very good caculation of how long it will take to get a stack of arrows and how long takes to use them.

 

Taking a character out of combat for an extended period of time, for whatever reason, is not solution.  It removes that class from any serious part of this game purely cause its not viable.

 

Point being 

If ressource management = removing a player from combat - then Crafting and Traveling isnt the route to go, no matter -how- large a stash of arrows they have to run around with.

 

So?

I want to get away from the current idea of arrow as a ressource to regulate the bow user.  There have been some good suggestions about adding several quivers, opting to let class specific disciplines add even more quivers.

 

 

My suggestion is :

Arrow Specific Runestone (example Slashing Arrow Runestone) which is placed in the current Quiver/Arrow slot.

 

  • It gives unlimited access to the specific arrow which the runestone is made for.

 

  • On activation (reload) it will place 250 arrows in your counter (quiver if you want to call it that), under a 2 second reload animation.

 

  • It has durability like everything else, when replaced its destroyed.

 

 

 

Ps Tinnis : No Im not home from Italy yet but figured I might as well start off this talk - cause you are absolutely right its not ok.

Edited by Soulreaver

Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

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If they want to keep arrows in the game, then champions should have crafted hurlbats, pistol duelists have bullets/pellets, Myrmidons have crafted nets...

You can see how much fun people have on the pistol duelist without crafting ammo, why not just do the same for rangers and let them have some fun too?

But I think they will realize the problem when every player using a bow disc starts whining.

Edited by Yumx

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On 7/22/2017 at 6:43 PM, Soulreaver said:

For the past 10 months in Crowfall I have tested the game as a bowuser, exclusively.  The closer to softlaunch we get the greater my concern grows....  especially after the latest live stream : Marks and Todds comments on this issue...... all I can say is : you just earned yourselves target bullseyes on the back from the entire bowuser part of the community.   

Utter lack of seriousness and a grap of the bag answer that was just playing, those who asked this question, for fools.   

I didn't watch it - which video did they mention something about arrows?

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Further testing :

  • Health Numbers have been increased to represent what Armor will be in the game.
  • Support Power is being added to make healing stronger once more.

Fights last, anywhere from 4-10+ minutes.

Here are a couple of examples :
 

Arrow stacks :

  • Advanced arrows needs to stack to 500.
  • Basic Arrows to 1000.


This is in NO way how I envision the arrows nor their state in the game, but it's a needed fix till such time that a more permanent and prober solution is found.

 

Edit : movie still being uploaded.
Thanks @Anthrage

Edited by Soulreaver

Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

Gathering of Ranger videos

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