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drunk

gameplay concerns

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Zergs

 

I'm especially concerned about the dregs FFA ruleset with player looting.  I played a lot of such games and all of them suffered from clans building up silly numbers of people and forcing every solo and small group player out of the server. Will small groups and solo players have a place in this game? If people log out because their group does not meet the meta numbers needed for pvp and simply can't play the game will hurt the population badly on the mid/long run. This basically happened in all such games I played so far.

 

I know some people will say "it's not a solo/small group game" which I heard the past 18 years for various games which ultimately had to abandon FFA and/or player looting or just died off completely because people kept farming noobs or smaller groups because you can always need another gear bag you can throw away in sieges.

 

I also know that people will argue that you can beat zergs with smaller numbers if you are good... but what if all the good players band together to get ez loot?  player looting rulesets making this very convenient and this happened more often than not in my time playing such games because the "elite" pvpers are usually the kind of people who can't stand being victimized. I was on both ends and it got boring for everyone pretty fast...

 

This is also relevant for the new player experience (NPE) because most people joining the game after release will do it without a guild and will look into the game on their own before they commit to a guild. Horrible solo experience usually leads to a horrible NPE hurting the population on the long run.

 

Skill tree

 

You will have to choose between combat or harvesting/crafting. This kinda sounds like p2w (on top of all the stuff you already can buy in the shop...)  because everyone with some spare money will make an account for pvp and another one with crafting/harvesting skills.

 

I think a  - combat and some specialization in some harvesting or crafting skills - approach would be a much better ? at least it does not feel like I have to buy the game twice. I know eve online does it similar but eve's combat is more like another proficiency than being the main part of the game. The soft launch with limited content needs to be taken into consideration aswell because only beeing able to play one part of the game properly may not be enough content.

Edited by drunk

 

Crowfall Wiki

 

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The skill tree is a pure debacle. Only getting to train one thing in crafting or harvesting or fighting is beyond lame. Put on top of that you now have a sub tree in each to even get to anything good. It is feeling more like an asian grind game than anything else now. how its pay to win is beyond me. being able to put points into harvesting / combat is a normal toon progression. Not spending a year to get one of them viable and than work on another. This long game leveling comes as a surprise when I heard shadowbane ppl were involved with the development. The skill tree at this time is a joke. who in their right mind wants to spend a year in development of a toon !?!? is this wow now ? I get taking time to develop, but I don't want to have to leave this in my will for my kids to finish leveling my toon when I die of old age.


 

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You don't get locked out of a tree by going down another. Nothing says you absolutely can only do one tree at a time. The game is supposed to be more player skill based so you won't be gimped like might be fearing if another player is farther ahead in a particular tree line. There is also more ways to improve your effectiveness then the passive skill trees.

 

Anyways there's already tons of threads on this might be better to read up and join those instead of yet another separate thread.

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Alliances form in any open world, ffa pvp game. The difference with crowfall, is that eventually someone wins. When the campaign ends, there's not really anything to tie those guilds together. Numbers are going to be an advantage, true, but they can also stretch the cohesiveness of a guild or alliance to its limits. Most large alliances aren't going to be interested in sending 100 guys to attack a small group of 5-10 gankers. These large groups form to counter other large groups in a sort of escalating military build up. Like I said, eventually the world blows up and everyone goes their separate way, so the stagnation problem really isn't a factor here.

Edited by soulein

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Zergs can't be stopped. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Want a open world full loot FFA pvp environment? It comes with baggage.

 

if you want more "balanced" gameplay or a system that caters more towards small group/solo play, stick with factions or whatever other rulesets they think up.

 

Numbers will factor into all, but at least with pre-made teams there's hopefully some sort of auto population control.

 

Those that want to solo or do small groups in The Dregs should have an uphill battle if they aren't part of a larger alliance. That's kind of the point of a "Throne War." Not that they shouldn't have plenty to do either way.

 

If they didn't have the multiple ruleset design, I wouldn't have backed. I don't have much faith in a "Dregs Only" game doing very well over time. Reason why most survival and open world pvp games are either lobby based or ghost towns.

 

As far as the skill trees....I try to spend as little time looking at them as possible, luckily they take almost zero brain power to use. Click and forget for a while. Complexity, theorycraft, min/max, unique? Nah, why bother...

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I'm especially concerned about the dregs FFA ruleset with player looting.  I played a lot of such games and all of them suffered from clans building up silly numbers of people and forcing every solo and small group player out of the server. Will small groups and solo players have a place in this game? If people log out because their group does not meet the meta numbers needed for pvp and simply can't play the game will hurt the population badly on the mid/long run. This basically happened in all such games I played so far.

 

I know some people will say "it's not a solo/small group game"

 

I won't say that. :) What I'll say is that the Dregs, specifically, probably will be really hard for solo and small-group players, but that's where the multiple rulesets come in. Join a three-faction campaign and you'll be allied with around a third of the players there, even if you're not in a guild. You'll have safety in numbers, you'll have players to trade with, play will be fun!


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Crowfall is a numbers game. If the way the skill lines are designed and the necessity for multiple people to fill multiple roles isn't a clear indicator of this; I don't know what is. Will zergs exist? Most definitely. Will they dominate? It's hard for me to say no.

 

What I do know is it will be highly improbable for solo players or small groups to survive on their own in the dregs and most likely on other world bands as well.

Edited by helix

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People  who have just joined are experiencing a partial game.

 

CF will have multiple campaigns with different rule sets. There should be sufficient variety to help the solo or small group player. That's the strength of CFs campaign design.  If you look back at some of the early videos the underlying objective was to prevent stagnation with one guild or group continually winning. The campaign will end and another one will start, different rules, different maps, different experience etc.

 

New players are drawing too many conclusions from what they see in front of them being the game - it won't.

 

However, I do think ACE could do more to educate the new testers on what to expect.


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To me, being able to remain in the late phases of CWs as a solo / small group relies on the map size and the survival mechanics more than the classic gathering/crafting/fighting abilities.

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Alliances form in any open world, ffa pvp game. The difference with crowfall, is that eventually someone wins. When the campaign ends, there's not really anything to tie those guilds together. 

 

Rust for example, works similarly by servers getting wiped after a set amount of time. And what are clans doing? they join with their zerg directly on the fist day beating everyone else before the even have a chance to form clans/alliances. There are single guilds or clans with over 500 members out there which could probably fill a server on their own and they will if they can farm and easily win campaigns that way.

 

Most large alliances aren't going to be interested in sending 100 guys to attack a small group of 5-10 gankers.

 

but that's is was people are doing at least in most other games similar to CF

 

 

I don't have much faith in a "Dregs Only" game doing very well over time. Reason why most survival and open world pvp games are either lobby based or ghost towns.

 

that would be really sad if Dregs dies since it's their initial vision of the game. It can work but needs a lot of thought and balancing work put into.

 

 

Crowfall is a numbers game. If the way the skill lines are designed and the necessity for multiple people to fill multiple roles isn't a clear indicator of this; I don't know what is. Will zergs exist? Most definitely. Will they dominate? It's hard for me to say no.

What I do know is it will be highly improbable for solo players or small groups to survive on their own in the dregs and most likely on other world bands as well.

 

that's the concern I have and the pitfall most other "throne war" games fell for. Without solo and small group players such games feel lifeless pretty fast where clans only log in for sieges. The only games I know wich did it somewhat right was ultima online and eve online which both have a massive amount of content accessible to solo and small group players aswell.

 

New players are drawing too many conclusions from what they see in front of them being the game - it won't.

 

I don't draw any conclusions. I just want to give some feedback when changes are still possible.

Edited by drunk

 

Crowfall Wiki

 

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The skill tree is a pure debacle. Only getting to train one thing in crafting or harvesting or fighting is beyond lame. Put on top of that you now have a sub tree in each to even get to anything good. It is feeling more like an asian grind game than anything else now. how its pay to win is beyond me. being able to put points into harvesting / combat is a normal toon progression. Not spending a year to get one of them viable and than work on another. This long game leveling comes as a surprise when I heard shadowbane ppl were involved with the development. The skill tree at this time is a joke. who in their right mind wants to spend a year in development of a toon !?!? is this wow now ? I get taking time to develop, but I don't want to have to leave this in my will for my kids to finish leveling my toon when I die of old age.

 

I'll take a year . . . or more "deveioping a toon" . . . provided the Journey (actually playing the game) is engaging.

 

That's what a "Throne War" is all about.

 

Understand, a lot of us are going to have to BREAK a lot of bad habits / expectations we've acquired from other games.  When I hear claims like "who in their right mind wants to spend a year in deveolpment of a toon . . ." pay attention to the context of that statement:

  • It comes from the conditioning that's inevitable in games that are (IMO) more stat/level/grind dependent for dominance and control within said game.

This means, instantly, a whole lot of players believe the following:  "The game doesn't really start until I can dominate/cap out/max my gear and stats.  So, Imma go "grind" in Farmville Fashion to develop my toon.  THEN I'll start "playing the game" (e.g. End Game is where the game Starts).

 

What if in Crowfall the idea is "Game On" takes place from day 1? 

 

That you go out, compete, have fun, compete some more, pick your spec's & training, then go out and compete and interact some more.  Harvest your resources, defend yourself, go hunt people down and loot what you can, protect those harvesters, defend those walls, come to the aid of your fellows and strive against your enemies, scheme in the background and setup a betrayal, have your eyes wide open and bait an opportunity for someone to show their hand at betrayal then take their head . . .

 

. . . et. the freak AL.

 

I'm all for the idea The Game will be The Game, engaging, fun, interesting, WITHOUT mechanics progression speeds so fast you can "develop your character" in what, 30 days?  Two weeks?  Two months?

 

Not really the way to go in a Throne War.  Crowfall IMO should be engaging and fun from day 1.  I don't have a burning need to park behind "farmvilling the development of my character first",  then coming out of my shell to play the game.

 

And APE has it right relative to "survival and open world" games and the inevitable profile of their "worlds".  Just the way the animal works given human nature both on the giving and receiving end, coupled with how large, organized gaming groups can simply "zerg" the maps.

 

That's not a cut at the Dregs rule-set by the way.  It's a practical statement coming from experience in that environment.  I'll play some Dregs in CF to see how the combat / progression / human dynamics look.  As a people watcher, if you will.

Edited by Bramble

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that would be really sad if Dregs dies since it's their initial vision of the game. It can work but needs a lot of thought and balancing work put into.

 

That is the issue. Once "balance" and gamey mechanics start to dictate gameplay, the spirit of the game falls down.

 

Look at Albion Online for example. The more "balance" and wider appeal they add, the less it resembles the original concept.

 

The Dregs (IMO) is supposed to be a hot mess. Survival of the fittest/largest/strongest/smartest. Not Blue vs Red equally matched teams or whatever "balance."

 

Hopefully the various other rulesets will allow for more structured-fair-balanced gameplay that is massively popular in comparison to a total free for all that despite what many say, is very niche within a niche market.

 

Dregs might be the "core" model, but from the Kickstarter on, the alternatives (likely more popular) are what will allow this game to grow or even exist. As I said, I wouldn't have backed if it was just another hardcore survival game destined to ghost town land sooner than later.

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If the greatest rewards are in the Dreggs, that's where people are going to go- and if they don't enjoy it, they'all leave. It's the silly human condition to do this, but it's a reality the developers are going to have to deal with.

 

Think of every raiding MMO. You can make the rest of the game great, but if raids contain the best gear, people whine they need to be made accessible. I don't understand this, but I've seen it enough to know it's the reality.

 

The only way you are gonna keep people out of the Dreggs is if the rewards are things they aren't interested in. For example, make the rewards that are unique in the Dreggs only be useful for groups (guilds), not individuals. Put the best resources also in the next band out with a rule set that allows for a good solo/small group experience. If you don't do this, I'm sure the out bands will be wastelands and people will whine until the Dreggs rule sets favor solo players.

 

What I could envision is the Dreggs having the best resources, but also unique rewards that only make sense to place in guild EKS. Then the second most inner band also has the best resources, but no guild level rewards, and has some kind of a "mercenary" mechanic that allows small group players to support either "side" of the conflict with small tasks in exchange for export power. This would make that band similar to the Dreggs, but a little more accessible to people it in big guilds.

Edited by slyjeff

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I'll take a year . . . or more "deveioping a toon" . . . provided the Journey (actually playing the game) is engaging.

 

That's what a "Throne War" is all about.

 

Understand, a lot of us are going to have to BREAK a lot of bad habits / expectations we've acquired from other games.  When I hear claims like "who in their right mind wants to spend a year in deveolpment of a toon . . ." pay attention to the context of that statement:

  • It comes from the conditioning that's inevitable in games that are (IMO) more stat/level/grind dependent for dominance and control within said game.

This means, instantly, a whole lot of players believe the following:  "The game doesn't really start until I can dominate/cap out/max my gear and stats.  So, Imma go "grind" in Farmville Fashion to develop my toon.  THEN I'll start "playing the game" (e.g. End Game is where the game Starts).

 

What if in Crowfall the idea is "Game On" takes place from day 1? 

 

That you go out, compete, have fun, compete some more, pick your spec's & training, then go out and compete and interact some more.  Harvest your resources, defend yourself, go hunt people down and loot what you can, protect those harvesters, defend those walls, come to the aid of your fellows and strive against your enemies, scheme in the background and setup a betrayal, have your eyes wide open and bait an opportunity for someone to show their hand at betrayal then take their head . . .

 

. . . et. the freak AL.

 

I'm all for the idea The Game will be The Game, engaging, fun, interesting, WITHOUT mechanics progression speeds so fast you can "develop your character" in what, 30 days?  Two weeks?  Two months?

 

Not really the way to go in a Throne War.  Crowfall IMO should be engaging and fun from day 1.  I don't have a burning need to park behind "farmvilling the development of my character first",  then coming out of my shell to play the game.

 

And APE has it right relative to "survival and open world" games and the inevitable profile of their "worlds".  Just the way the animal works given human nature both on the giving and receiving end, coupled with how large, organized gaming groups can simply "zerg" the maps.

 

That's not a cut at the Dregs rule-set by the way.  It's a practical statement coming from experience in that environment.  I'll play some Dregs in CF to see how the combat / progression / human dynamics look.  As a people watcher, if you will.

 

I understand what you're saying but I'm not sure how well it works here. I'm all for that approach when it works and that has allowed me lately to have more fun in a variety of games, but this is a bit different. Typically in games that have taken that approach with progression, it's fun because you're making big enough gains along the way that it keeps it fun. You feel your character getting more powerful in various ways so the journey is fun and you're not rushing to the end. The power curve is steeper, however and that ends up being fairly integral to making it work.

 

But here they've stated they want the skill trees to be very shallow, so each new skill you train does individually, almost nothing. The gains are so small that it's click and forget. You won't feel any more powerful for months.

 

So we're getting into the same problem here that we had with food. The idea is interesting, but the implementation is boring and pointless. It's yet another "I have to click this thing every so often and then I can go back to the fun stuff" system. But the only way to make it more interesting is to increase the power curve, which they don't want to do. So how do you solve that?

 

You can shorten the time it takes to complete things by quite a bit, but then it becomes exactly what you described we need to avoid - the "I need to finish this before I can get to the fun stuff" progression. Or what if you allowed people to branch out into more trees after finishing things? Well then you'd have more diverse characters which is just another form of a bigger power curve. So neither of those really works.

 

Then of course there's the problem of retention. How many players are going to play for a full year without taking breaks, or will they come back at all in that year? Especially with the idea of campaigns giving players shorter time periods where they can fully play the game, along with other gameplay elements, it almost encourages that behavior. Likely most of your players will play like that, so then you have a majority of your playerbase not ever really feeling the effects of the skill system.

 

Listen I know it's Alpha, but there's a pattern here with a few of these gameplay systems that needs addressing. Now's the time to have these discussions so the developers can find ways to make them better.

Edited by Leiloni

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That is the issue. Once "balance" and gamey mechanics start to dictate gameplay, the spirit of the game falls down.

 

Look at Albion Online for example. The more "balance" and wider appeal they add, the less it resembles the original concept.

 

The Dregs (IMO) is supposed to be a hot mess. Survival of the fittest/largest/strongest/smartest. Not Blue vs Red equally matched teams or whatever "balance."

 

no "balance" at all will also dictate the gameplay in a certain way. For example: Kill on sight and griefing will always be the main trait of such games. I don't think they original concept is a KOS / grief fest like Darkfall and Rust turned into.

 

 

If the greatest rewards are in the Dreggs, that's where people are going to go- and if they don't enjoy it, they'all leave. It's the silly human condition to do this, but it's a reality the developers are going to have to deal with.

 

yeah this is a real thing. It's the same mindset that people can't do pvp until they got maxed out their character.

 

 

I wish for a ruleset that works for everyone (solo, small group, big group players) which has different layers of gameplay and content integrated with each other... like a real living world. The only game which kinda made this possible is eve online.

Edited by drunk

 

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I wish for a ruleset that works for everyone (solo, small group, big group players) which has different layers of gameplay and content integrated with each other. The only game which kinda made this possible is eve online.

 

There are definitely ways to do this; but it would be maybe counter to what the current vision of the dreggs is.

 

But if you allowed a concept of "mercenaries"- small groups of people who can do tasks for the major groups at war, in trade for embargo rights with the winning team, it seems to me you could add some play for people in smaller guilds. But that doesn't sound like the "dreggs" to me. Which is why I was thinking one band up, but all of the individual level rewards would be available (and leave guild level rewards in the dreggs).

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Zergs

 

I'm especially concerned about the dregs FFA ruleset with player looting.  I played a lot of such games and all of them suffered from clans building up silly numbers of people and forcing every solo and small group player out of the server. Will small groups and solo players have a place in this game? If people log out because their group does not meet the meta numbers needed for pvp and simply can't play the game will hurt the population badly on the mid/long run. This basically happened in all such games I played so far.

 

I know some people will say "it's not a solo/small group game" which I heard the past 18 years for various games which ultimately had to abandon FFA and/or player looting or just died off completely because people kept farming noobs or smaller groups because you can always need another gear bag you can throw away in sieges.

 

I also know that people will argue that you can beat zergs with smaller numbers if you are good... but what if all the good players band together to get ez loot?  player looting rulesets making this very convenient and this happened more often than not in my time playing such games because the "elite" pvpers are usually the kind of people who can't stand being victimized. I was on both ends and it got boring for everyone pretty fast...

 

This is also relevant for the new player experience (NPE) because most people joining the game after release will do it without a guild and will look into the game on their own before they commit to a guild. Horrible solo experience usually leads to a horrible NPE hurting the population on the long run.

For those of you who say Zergs are not a problem. You are part of the Zerg, so you don't see a problem.

 

For everyone else ready to admit Zergs are an issue, we need to turn FF on and change some of the gameplay mechanics. Right now I see a big issue with heals. You have the druid who has heal orbs and AOE heal. With no FF AOE heal is OP and Zergs gain an advantage from this mechanic. Heal orbs also gives zergs an advantage as you can't destroy them as an opposing team or hit them to get health. This means whoever has more druids, gets more heals and they don't have to be skilled to provide them to teammates.

 

Now lets look at the Legionaire. C, all I need to say is C. C is the biggest low skill ceiling skill that helps zergs. Whoever has more Legionaires inherently gets more heals. The heals don't need to be targeted, just stand close to teammates.

 

Right now I see healers as low skill ceiling classes. I am not saying the druid is easy to play, I am saying the healing skills of the druid are easy and the healing skills of the legionnaire are easy. This clearly gives Zergs an advantage.

 

The best way to fight zergs is require healing skills to have a higher ceiling, by having to target those you wish to heal. You also need to turn FF on so zergs can hurt each other and can't throw out heals without fear of healing enemies. If this is not done, Crowfall will be a battle of who has the largest zerg.

Edited by mastakane

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For those of you who say Zergs are not a problem. You are part of the Zerg, so you don't see a problem.

 

For everyone else ready to admit Zergs are an issue, we need to turn FF on and change some of the gameplay mechanics. Right now I see a big issue with heals. You have the druid who has heal orbs and AOE heal. With no FF AOE heal is OP and Zergs gain an advantage from this mechanic. Heal orbs also gives zergs an advantage as you can't destroy them as an opposing team or hit them to get health. This means whoever has more druids, gets more heals and they don't have to be skilled to provide them to teammates.

 

Now lets look at the Legionaire. C, all I need to say is C. C is the biggest low skill ceiling skill that helps zergs. Whoever has more Legionaires inherently gets more heals. The heals don't need to be targeted, just stand close to teammates.

 

Right now I see healers as low skill ceiling classes. I am not saying the druid is easy to play, I am saying the healing skills of the druid are easy and the healing skills of the legionnaire are easy. This clearly gives Zergs an advantage.

 

The best way to fight zergs is require healing skills to have a higher ceiling, by having to target those you wish to heal. You also need to turn FF on so zergs can hurt each other and can't throw out heals without fear of healing enemies. If this is not done, Crowfall will be a battle of who has the largest zerg.

Also the roof is on fire and also the sky is falling!

 

I stated something similar in one of the old feedback threads but I don't mind reiterating here: if you people demand nerfs to healing without nerfs to spike damage what you're advocating for is fights that last for all of literal seconds, that basically involve nothing but Myrmidons and Confessors, and maybe a couple of Duelists who don't mind getting crapped on repeatedly.

 

"Be careful of what you wish for" is all I'm saying.


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Also the roof is on fire and also the sky is falling!

 

I stated something similar in one of the old feedback threads but I don't mind reiterating here: if you people demand nerfs to healing without nerfs to spike damage what you're advocating for is fights that last for all of literal seconds, that basically involve nothing but Myrmidons and Confessors, and maybe a couple of Duelists who don't mind getting crapped on repeatedly.

 

"Be careful of what you wish for" is all I'm saying.

AOE Heals equal low skill cap period.  Healing right now is super required because 1 centaur and 2 confessors can take out 4-5 players with no healer.  What they are talking about is actually having to pick the target that gets the HoT or direct heal instead of just mindlessly tossing them out.  All other classes have to aim their skills, why not heals from a Centaur?  Druids healing takes a little more skill and longer build up.  It's also not a direct AOE fire and forget.  Druid is a balanced support that has a few mechanical flaws, while Centaur is OP and really has no choice to give it even a moderate skill cap.


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