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Eaden

A Jedi mind trick to save the skill training system

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For many different reasons, a good part of the community is bored / upset with the current skill training system.

 

So, I came up with a new fresh idea while talking to Caenth about it. It is only a way to present the skill training system and the skill tree approach (Jedi mind trick), but it could actually make the skill tree feel more rewarding, completely different, and much less of a hassle. Let me explain!

 

First of all,, I am not discussing the lack of "meaningful choices", the "dead ends", the "skill unlocks", the "specilization paths" or any of the (most of the time) good suggestions trying to add some specialization choices to the progression system. This is NOT the topic for that.

 

Second thing to understand: the skill training system must be viewed as a semi-passive progression system.

  • "Progression" as per gaining stats, level, pools, etc, the older the account gets.
  • "Semi-passive" as the accumulation of "XP" or "SP" (skill points) is passive, but their distribution is chosen by the player.

So from now on, I will always refer to what we call the "skill trees" as "the progression system", to hammer it in your heads. :)

 

Third, I am only addressing the following issues (questions) we are having (asking ourselves) when dealing with the current progression system:

  1. the diminishing returns are unclear / Should I train 50%, 80%, 100%?
  2. the tooltips are odd / Is it worth it to go 100%? Are my maths good?
  3. the timers are boring and not useful / Is it too long depending for the relative gain?
  4. the queue management that would be needed / Will I have to connect tomorrow at 7am to switch skills?

 

These are what my idea is all about. This simple idea will:

  • remove the need for a skill queue (victory!)
  • allow the players to really forget about the progression system and focus on their game, while making the best out of it anyway (victory!)
  • give a much more rewarding feeling when gaining a new "skill" (victory!)
  • forbid the cumulation of training slots for the same skill tree (either general or archetype) (victory!)

All these while saving the current 1 general + 1-3 archetype learning architecture already in-game.

 

So here we are, time to explain the idea!

 

 

Forget everything you know about training time, diminishing returns, skill swaps, skill queue, etc.

 

Your mind is all new and fresh? Good!

 

For the example, let's imagine you are a VIP player. So you can progress in 1 General skill tree and 3 Archetypes skill trees.

 

The idea is to grant the players a total of 4 skill point generators: 1 generator of "general SP" and (up to) 3 generators of "archetype SP".

 

That means the players will have (up to) four "SP generators" of two different kinds (general and archetype) providing them with a certain amount of SP a day for both types of SP.

 

Now, imagine we have specific SP pools to be filled (with no max capacity):

  • 3 pools for the general skill lines: one for combat, one for crafting, one for exploring.
  • 13 pools for the archetypes: 1 for each archetype.

 

With this setup, we only have one thing to do to get started: choose one "general pool" and up to three "archetype pools". For example, I choose combat, knight, duelist, and lego.

 

While keeping the current UI (1 + 3 bubles on the top right corner of the screen), we will not see anymore the skills being learned, but instead the pools selected to be filled over time.

 

After some time, each of our pools will have accumulated enough Skill Points dedicated to their related skill tree. In this example, I will have Combat SPs,  knight SPs, duelist SPs, and lego SPs in their relevant SP pools.

 

And here the true fun begins!

 

So far, we have only accumulated Skill Points, but our account did not gain any stat whatsoever from any tree. We will have to spend these accumulated (and specific to their branch) Skill Points to "buy" our skills!

 

So let's say we have enough to get the T1 basic skill of every tree, plus a little more. So here is what happens:

  1. We buy the skill we want, and obtain 100% of it straight away. No more wondering about the tips, the time, etc. We get 100% straight away.
  2. If we have some remaining points not spent, we will keep them for later skill purchase if needed.
  3. We can choose to switch our pools at any time to train something else if we feel that such changes are needed: nothing is lost, no need to queue, no need to log at 7AM. We swap the pools, and get on with our life.
  4. Everything is much clearer: we will have a "SP price" for any skill we want to unlock and a tool tip indicating exactly what will be gained.
  5. The maths behind skill cap get way easier. We just have to know the number of SP we gain a hour, or a day, and compare it to the total of SPs needed to "buy" a specific skill we are interested in.

 

On top of that, and because a lot of people suggested it, each skill could have specific Tiers, allowing to "sub-buy" them in several times. For example, if the skill "extraordinary strength" grants our account 2 extra points of strength when "bought", it could always be possible to cut it in two tiers (50/50 of SP price, no fancy diminishing returns), to buy 1 half now, and another half later.

 

So this is it! This is actually an advanced version of Dust514 progression system. It actually did wonder (until the dev start throwing boosters and respecs). And I think it could be a perfect fit for CF!

 

Tell me what you think. But as we are still in pre-Alpha, I dare to strongly suggest to our dear Devs to give it a try if possible!

 

My 2 cents as always,

 

Eaden

Edited by Eaden

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"CF may not be the game you're looking for" ~ Obi Wan Coleman

 

All kidding aside, I would like to keep the extra skill points that would have been generated when my last skill completed 100% and apply them to the next skill as soon as I select it. The skill point pool should be easier for ACE devs to set up than a queue (especially with switching AT skills still broken) and you could buy skills to 100% from a big pool.

 

Furthermore, after launch, new players could buy catch-up skill points from the cash shop at an outrageous fee that gets more exhorbitant as one gets closer to 100% of current skill pool levels. That's not P2W, it's Pay 2 Compete on even ground. It also lets the value of existing accounts constantly accrue appraised equity.

Even with such a system, VIP skill pools should only build skill points during the months the account is actually in VIP status. This way one actually has to do the time to get the VIP archetype training discount.

Edited by BurgundytheRed

Honestly, you are the type of person that is much to competitive, has zero compassion for other people and think you are better than everyone else. You likely love to troll people on a day to day bases to get others angry and laugh about it. You make playing any online game unfun for everyone else.  -Kuroaka

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"CF may not be the game you're looking for" ~ Obi Wan Coleman

 

[snip]. That's not P2W, it's Pay 2 Compete on even ground. It also lets the value of existing accounts constantly accrue appraised equity.

Even with such a system, VIP skill pools should only build skill points during the months the account is actually in VIP status. This way one actually has to do the time to get the VIP archetype training discount.

 

"Pay to compete on even ground" . . . isn't a given fix to a "given problem" . . . depending on how the game is architected.  What if there is no "problem" that needs fixing?

 

There is a distinct difference between "not being able to participate / compete" to material degree, and the other guy still having an advantage.  Advantage vs Disadvantage are not equal to "can't participate / compete".

 

I'm going to, yet again, bounce back to my experience in GW 1:  There most certainly was Advantage to more senior players who had all Elite Skills, while I was at a Disadvantage without any, or only a couple.  However, at NO TIME was I out of the competition, was I out of fights, etc.  Because of two factors:  1)  How the game was structured + 2) How those components were CALIBRATED to work together.

 

That paradigm was completely different, in every way, from a gear/stat/level dominant game where you might reasonably "need" a catch up method for newbs, because the power scaling, structure of the game, etc., completely separated the player base from competing against each other (e.g. one completely unable to affect another through passives) or PARTICIPATING together (In the PvE model instances and challenges level + "gear score" requirement tiered).

 

So long as Crowfall does NOT scale power/capability so far apart at the high end (capped) and low end (noob) so that people can't participate / compete with each other in the CWs . . . 

 

. . . you have, IMO, a far SOFTER "need" to consider artificial catch up modes.

 

Because the real trigger for a catch up methods in a game is NOT because someone has an Advantage, it's when game mechanics reach a point it becomes arbitrarily prohibitive and a block.  IMO.

 

If Crowfall is not going to be like the typical drek shovelled around the Internet within the past few years, with gear/level/power scaling taking "farmvillers" to ability levels, if not access levels to instances and more gear (PvE side), why is everyone automatically assuming at this point in time "catch up mechanisms" must be considered in Crowfall?

 

Someone help me out:  With what we know today, what scenario might justify "catch up" mechanism for new players?  Combat?  Crafting?  Harvesting?

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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blablabla

 

blablabla 

 

Someone help me out:  With what we know today, what scenario might justify "catch up" mechanism for new players?  Combat?  Crafting?  Harvesting?

 

 

 

I am helping you out: Crowfall do NOT need any catching mechanism. Lmao, the game is in pre-alpha, and people are worried about catching up?

 

Now, you guys help me out too: why are we talking about that in my super shiny topic? Damn... Can you guys stop trolling my suggestions.

 

Are you even reading them? x)

Edited by Eaden

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I am helping you out: Crowfall do NOT need any catching mechanism. Lmao, the game is in pre-alpha, and people are worried about catching up?

 

Now, you guys help me out too: why are we talking about that in my super shiny topic? Damn... Can you guys stop trolling my suggestions.

 

Are you even reading them? x)

 

Ummm, you misread what I was getting at:  I'm agreeing with you.

 

And I was simply replying to Burgundy.  How did you think I was "dissing" you?

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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I feel that most of these skill debate are ppl responding to their "CrowCain", come on guys u loose 30 mins.. an hour.. 24 hours.. a week.

 

Plan ahead and make a strategy. That is what this is about.

 

It is not about having a fail safe system that will soak up everything for late use.

 

If its lost... its lost. Just like gear. :P


Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

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Ummm, you misread what I was getting at:  I'm agreeing with you.

 

And I was simply replying to Burgundy.  How did you think I was "dissing" you?

 

Yesterday was just a bad day, nothing personal. :)

 

I feel that most of these skill debate are ppl responding to their "CrowCain", come on guys u loose 30 mins.. an hour.. 24 hours.. a week.

 

Plan ahead and make a strategy. That is what this is about.

 

It is not about having a fail safe system that will soak up everything for late use.

 

If its lost... its lost. Just like gear. :P

 

Man, I must be really unclear when I explain something. x)

 

What I suggest is in no way a fail safe system. If you choose a skill over another, and you realize that you should have skilled in something else, well, it is on you (and it's "kindda" lost).

 

This system is actually only about:

- not losing SP if you cannot setup your skills to be learned in time (for some reason when you would not be able to connect to the game for example)

- having clear indication of what you "pay for" and how much you "pay for it".

- having the full benefit of the skill you've just learned straight away, which give a much better feeling of achievement than the current system.

Edited by Eaden

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well done Eaden good suggestion im all for it. ;)

 

While it would get rid of the idea to use skill que for VIP , it would be still mutch better then the current system.

 

It would be fine to give VIP just a discount on skinns or free skins / collors per month

There could also set a maximum skill point pool with your idea. But with VIP that maximum would be bigger.

 

 

Yesterday was just a bad day, nothing personal. :)

 

 

Man, I must be really unclear when I explain something. x)

 

What I suggest is in no way a fail safe system. If you choose a skill over another, and you realize that you should have skilled in something else, well, it is on you (and it's "kindda" lost).

 

This system is actually only about:

- not losing SP if you cannot setup your skills to be learned in time (for some reason when you would not be able to connect to the game for example)

- having clear indication of what you "pay for" and how much you "pay for it".

- having the full benefit of the skill you've just learned straight away, which give a much better feeling of achievement than the current system.

I think with fail safe he meant that in the current system if your skill is finished and you dont put something else in , then you loose the time (skill points). While with your system the skill points will not go to waste.

However i have no fun getting up at 3 am to que up another skill point ( current system) so yah eadens idea is a good solution to the problem.

 

On the catch up note. The skill tree is just 1 thing that makes people stronger and even that on a minimal level. Catch up mechanics are somthing for 6+ month after release. Thats a long way down the road no need to think of that unitl next year.


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@Eaden:  "Yesterday was just a bad day, nothing personal."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

It's OK Man . . .just . . .

 

BIG  MAN  HUGS!  :blink:  :D


“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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@Eaden:  "Yesterday was just a bad day, nothing personal."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

It's OK Man . . .just . . .

 

BIG  MAN  HUGS!  :blink:  :D

 

the-power-of-a-hug-suzette-brawner-3LAU4

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