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For a healer whose damage comes from ranged casting I'm all for the aimed heals, but for the Templar (and the Legionnaire if/when they get an ability reevaluation) who wields a melee weapon and has to do damage to heal, I'm fine with a PBAoE.

They should treat the Templar like a DoK. It fought to heal. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U8A1fSEqUI Healing numbers would have to be adjusted though.

Edited by Handies

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They should treat the Templar like a DoK. It fought to heal. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U8A1fSEqUI Healing numbers would have to be adjusted though.

 

This was more of what I was expecting in CF. I'm fine with all characters being DPS machines, but make it a cohesive design, not a DPS that just happens to have heals, especially not fire and forget.

 

Druid isn't bad, but still doesn't give me the same "feels" as WAR healers/support.

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My understanding is that the heals of the Templar are their form of Mitigation as a tank.  This is a valid thing to have, and other games have implemented it with varying degrees of success.  The FFXI Paladin acquired hate and provided additional mitigation from constantly spamming Cure II when flash and provoke weren't available.  FFXIV put in Clemency which has a synergy with a skill that increases personal healing for 20 seconds.  The same goes with WoW and so on and so forth.  It's a very common vision of Templars / Paladins in most games that said Holy Warriors are able to heal.  In fact, nearly every MMO on the market that has a Holy Warrior archtype has it so that it can heal.  Be they PvP or PvE games or both.  It's part of the fantasy.

 

Whether they should be self-heals or weak group heals is anybody's guess.  Though healing is a form of mitigation; if there are ways to counter self-healing when it is meant to be mitigation and tuned as such, then every class should have a counter to their mitigation skill (usually DPS buff skills do this as is, unless one thinks it fair for them to have two role specific buffs versus a tank's one; when to use what you're given is up to know how and group gameplay).  So long as they classify archtypes as "DPS", "Tank" and "Support" there is no escaping such things.

Edited by Sindothyx

Dare to dream.  Never be satisfied with what is.  We're restricted by time and money.  But if we do not dare to dream, we will never improve efficiently when opportunity strikes.

Each feature has its own meta; it's own audience.  Who prefers simplicity versus intricate complexity?  Who does not?  When does it provide meaningful depth to a specific structure or economy?  Is there a way to implement both?  How many characters will they control?  And their options?

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That's like asking for an easymode, OP healer that everyone is going to play and everyone is going to hate (including those playing it lol).

 

Exactly ^. Its like the class you play so your teammates are happy, but you hate doing it because its boring. Make healing skills fun so people enjoy playing the role. There is nothing fun about doing dmg and hitting 1 key to heal everyone around you. I was hoping for more interesting skills in this game and they have delivered in some areas (Confessor combo is a great skill and gives you options you might change mid combo.)

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My understanding is that the heals of the Templar are their form of Mitigation as a tank.  This is a valid thing to have, and other games have implemented it with varying degrees of success.  The FFXI Paladin acquired hate and provided additional mitigation from constantly spamming Cure II when flash and provoke weren't available.  FFXIV put in Clemency which has a synergy with a skill that increases personal healing for 20 seconds.  The same goes with WoW and so on and so forth.  It's a very common vision of Templars / Paladins in most games that said Holy Warriors are able to heal.  In fact, nearly every MMO on the market that has a Holy Warrior archtype has it so that it can heal.  Be they PvP or PvE games or both.  It's part of the fantasy.

 

If this game has combat like the above mentioned references, I will quit after week 1.

 

I actually liked FFXI because I am a nerd and I was obsessed with FF7 growing up. That being said, the combat was absolutely awful and does not fit in with what CF is at all. You can make a Holy Warrior all you want. I just ask that we offer fun mechanics not "Punch till the meter is full and hit 4 to heal everyone around you". I am pretty sure I did that in FF7 in the arcade.

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OK well as much as I enjoy this healer design tangent maybe we need to get back on topic. Here are the primary skills in question, keeping in mind the stated goal of Templar being "a melee-focused tank archetype" whose "survivability comes from a mixture of healing, hitpoint buffs and right-click defense/counter mechanics".

 

Divine Light is the fourth ability in her tray, a field bathing the area in a purifying light causing some damage to enemies within the area. This ability does not require Righteousness to activate and is governed by a cooldown. But while active, the field drains Righteousness from the Templar over time. On the other hand, the Templar gains Righteousness for each enemy in the field. When the Templar has Righteousness, the field not only heals but also cleanses Sin from both allies and her.
 
Devotion is a self-buff, healing both the Templar and nearby allies based on damage dealt. Attacks made by those healed by devotion convicts enemies and afflicts them with Sin. Righteousness is required to activate this ability.

 

 

Divine Light seems fairly balanced in it's idea (probably because it's been done before, notably similar to the ESO Templar's Ritual of Retribution) . Damage to enemies, healing and Sin cleansing to allies, but balanced with the Righteousness usage/gain mechanic. If you primarliy want to heal people, I'm guessing it will not be very much unless you can get some enemies in there. Of course numbers will need to work well but hopefully that's how it turns out. Otherwise without any enemies, it'll be primarily useful for Sin cleansing which is good. Offensively I think this has some pretty cool potential, though. 

 

Devotion is potentially problematic. Sure we've seen skills like this in tab target games focused on a hard trinity, but this is neither of those things. Passive healing in an action combat game can get problematic very quickly. What is the target area of the skill for allies? Is it a frontal shape, or PbAoE? What is the radius? How much healing? Does the Templar get more healing than the allies - I hope this is the case.

 

Templar needs heals as part of what makes them tanky but they don't need to do a lot of healing to allies with it. Ideally that melee healing role would be covered by a revamped Legio (sidenote - why would you design a melee healer whose known for being really good at running away from the place they ideally want to be? And why would you design a melee healer that needs to?). I'm assuming the healing being based on damage dealt is supposed to be a balancer, but then you just have someone dealing both a lot of damage and a lot of healing at the same time - or little of both, neither of which is fun or useful.

 

The Sin aspect of this is a great idea, though. If that's the point of it, I wonder why make it heal allies at all? Just give allies in a radius the Sin buff while healing the Templar, and give a good melee damage to healing skill to the Legio - i.e. Templar hits enemies, in turn they get a self buff for x seconds that heals them over those x seconds, while giving allies in y radius a Sin buff for x seconds and Templar needs to keep hitting to keep the buff up. With both x and y being small numbers to prevent it from being OP, so the Templar needs to keep attacking to keep up this buff and allies need to stick close to the tank for buffy goodness.

 

 

 

 

If they keep with the idea of Templar self healing as mitigation along with the Sin mechanics, it'll be an interesting class. Provided of course that self healing is fun and well balanced, keeping out easy mode and boring design mechanics.

 

All in all the class, looking at action combat games, reminds me of a mix of ESO's Templar, Neverwinter's Devoted Cleric, and the Valkyrie in BDO.

Edited by Leiloni

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My understanding is that the heals of the Templar are their form of Mitigation as a tank.  This is a valid thing to have, and other games have implemented it with varying degrees of success.  

 

Whether they should be self-heals or weak group heals is anybody's guess. 

 

I agree that it is valid for a "tank" to offer mitigation/heals of some sort, there are lots of ways to do it. Armor buffs, bubbles/barriers, damage transfer (Tank takes 50% of friendly damage), increased passive mitigation for friendlies (block, parry, dodge).

 

To me this makes it more strategic instead of Low HP = Use Heal. More proactive and reactive situations can happen when it is more Utility based. Still result in prolonged TTK, but timing, positioning, targeting, resource management can go up.

 

As is, none of the current heals are terrible, but moving forward, would like to see more use of creative mechanics and risk/effort vs reward. Especially with Discipline related Support/Heal abilities.

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Divine Light seems fairly balanced in it's idea (probably because it's been done before, notably similar to the ESO Templar's Ritual of Retribution) . Damage to enemies, healing and Sin cleansing to allies, but balanced with the Righteousness usage/gain mechanic. If you primarliy want to heal people, I'm guessing it will not be very much unless you can get some enemies in there. Of course numbers will need to work well but hopefully that's how it turns out. Otherwise without any enemies, it'll be primarily useful for Sin cleansing which is good. Offensively I think this has some pretty cool potential, though. 

 

Devotion is potentially problematic. Sure we've seen skills like this in tab target games focused on a hard trinity, but this is neither of those things. Passive healing in an action combat game can get problematic very quickly. What is the target area of the skill for allies? Is it a frontal shape, or PbAoE? What is the radius? How much healing? Does the Templar get more healing than the allies - I hope this is the case.

 

Templar needs heals as part of what makes them tanky but they don't need to do a lot of healing to allies with it.

 

I agree with you on the sin aspect. The sin reduction is a great buff and greatly mitigates enemy confessor dmg if played well. I just hope it doesn't become easy mode where you have Templar in your party and you basically are immune to sin, but that's a balancing issue.

 

One of the reasons I am so disappointed in Templar is it isn't what we were told it would be. If you look up Templar under the AT page it still says Tank (Dodge). What we got is a tank that is actually giving up dodge and mobility and gaining heals. I was excited about playing the Templar, until I heard it was a Paladin.

 

Why does this bother me? Well its a Paladin and hands down in my opinion that has been the most boring, safest class in any RPG or similar game.

 

A paladin is a warrior with heals. What is wrong about this? The shear nature of the Paladin sucks because as a warrior you expect someone who can wear heavy armor, hit hard, can take a lot of damage, but has no magic. Then you give them heals and buffs. Now we have a priest who can wear heavy armor, do damage, take damage while healing themselves and those around them. So we basically just combined two classes together and the only way we can make this not OP is to nerf something. Now they become a poorly made socksty damage dealer, or a poorly made socksty healer. Paladin has always been the jack of all trades, master of none class in my opinion. They are always boring to play because they survive forever but don't do much dmg. In an even fight they can choose to run away and if they are outnumbered they slowly die. The Paladin has never been the class that "makes plays". This is speculation, maybe Acecraft can pull it off. I just haven't seen it done and I am skeptical they can.

 

What I would like to see with the Templar is a class that has mobility, but also incorporates shields. Shields are a better way to add a heal mechanic that takes more skill. Shields are preventative so that you have to time the skill at the right time to gain the maximum benefit. Shields would also add for better team play mechanics. Example "Templar throws shield on almost dead confessor so that Druid has a chance to heal the confessor up." I would like to see the Templar still do good dmg, but can provide shields to teammates and sin buffs (cause that was a good idea Acecraft) while having a decent amount of mobility to assist teammates. I had an idea that the Knight would be the pull enemies to him and control allowing teammates to ranged DPS or stay away from who the knight was fighting. The Templar in my mind was the person rushing to your assistance to help you deal dmg to your target through mobility and two handed weapon dmg.

 

Maybe I was way off, but I think a Templar that acted as a warrior with shields would be a more exciting AT. Right now I am seeing another boring Paladin. All theory, could be wrong.

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No one complains about the druid healing.

 

Because its A: Not instant blind targeted healing. B: the orbs only heal one person. C: Rain is a long cooldown and doesn't heal for alot.

 

If the horse's healing was changed to be closer to the druids, he would unfortunately, not be played at all.

 

His healing needs to be changed that if its not as powerful then at least requires positioning and aiming. And then he needs some better support buffs, remove stuns, remove debuffs, remove roots, etc. 

 

As long as the templar doesn't have super over powered healing its fine. Remember discipline runes will add healing anyway, and literally in the Templar post they mentioned that the power sets currently on archetypes are not in stone, they may even move to other Archetypes.

 

If its a trade off that the templar cant do damage if he uses his resource for healing its fine, the druid has this trade off, while the horse does not.

 

Sort of see the line of balance where one is closer to balanced and the other isint? The trade off exists in the druid along with requiring alot of positioning and skill while on the horse, it does not.

 

We just have to see how it plays out. Remember when people saw the hamster's power set and people were freaking out that its too strong? He isint played in a group because while he CAN do alot of damage, in a team he cant contribute, he has low mobility, low catch and extremely low survivability. I said these exact things about him on his introduction post and they turned out to be true. He is like a version of the champion except he has a get away and can position himself better.

Edited by Vectious

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i've said all i want to on what i think of the current state of "light combat healing" especially with regards to the legio's efficiency and mechanics

 

i'm not opposed to the templar having support elements especially when there are only two support archetype options

 

(and in fact i think her support powers sound better designed than the legios!)

 

e.g. tied to active combat and both allied and enemy targets

 

however I agree with some elements of mastakane:

 

i was hoping more for a "witcher" style character - a two handed melee fighter that used some light magic to augment their fighting (e.g. FIRE magic and others) while being highly agile and mobile as their main defence e.g. how the witcher fights with dodges and evasion

 

so curious what they will replace that "tank dodge" label with and how it compares to both knight and legio

 

[sounds miles better than both currently]

 

still sounds good fun to play - just different from initial expectations...

Edited by Tinnis

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i've said all i want to on what i think of the current state of "light combat healing" especially with regards to the legio

 

i'm not opposed to the templar having support elements (and in fact i think her support powers sound better designed than the legios

 

e.g. tied to active combat and both allied and enemy targets)

 

however I agree with some elements of mastakane:

 

i was hoping more for a "witcher" style character - a two handed melee fighter that used some light magic to augment their fighting (e.g. FIRE magic and others) while being highly agile and mobile as their main defence e.g. how the witcher fights

 

so curious what they will replace that "tank dodge" label with and how it compares to both knight and legio

 

[sounds miles better than both currently]

 

still sounds good fun to play - just different from initial expectations...

Witcher style only works in a structured combat system that uses root motion.

 

Active dodging as a core defensive mechanic just wont work in this game, unfortunately. Once you go beyond 10 people in a fight the entire dodging and reaction to moves sort of disappears for a melee, especially with the amount of CC thats in the game.

 

Only reason it still works in witcher is because the NPC's are scripted not to all zerg you and attack you all at once constantly, they are scripted to allow you to have time to react, and in alot of case games like these also support some kind of 'time slow' mechanic to help.

 

You would have to completely redesign the entire combat system to really make it work, and i dont think its worth the effort.

 

Passive dodging or a 'negate' ability would be viable. Popup tempo immunity for like 2 seconds or target ally with the immunity. With the right cooldown these are solid support abilities. Not the blind instant cast full heal on a low cooldown non-sense. 


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I agree with you on the sin aspect. The sin reduction is a great buff and greatly mitigates enemy confessor dmg if played well. I just hope it doesn't become easy mode where you have Templar in your party and you basically are immune to sin, but that's a balancing issue.

 

One of the reasons I am so disappointed in Templar is it isn't what we were told it would be. If you look up Templar under the AT page it still says Tank (Dodge). What we got is a tank that is actually giving up dodge and mobility and gaining heals. I was excited about playing the Templar, until I heard it was a Paladin.

 

Why does this bother me? Well its a Paladin and hands down in my opinion that has been the most boring, safest class in any RPG or similar game.

 

A paladin is a warrior with heals. What is wrong about this? The shear nature of the Paladin sucks because as a warrior you expect someone who can wear heavy armor, hit hard, can take a lot of damage, but has no magic. Then you give them heals and buffs. Now we have a priest who can wear heavy armor, do damage, take damage while healing themselves and those around them. So we basically just combined two classes together and the only way we can make this not OP is to nerf something. Now they become a poorly made socksty damage dealer, or a poorly made socksty healer. Paladin has always been the jack of all trades, master of none class in my opinion. They are always boring to play because they survive forever but don't do much dmg. In an even fight they can choose to run away and if they are outnumbered they slowly die. The Paladin has never been the class that "makes plays". This is speculation, maybe Acecraft can pull it off. I just haven't seen it done and I am skeptical they can.

 

What I would like to see with the Templar is a class that has mobility, but also incorporates shields. Shields are a better way to add a heal mechanic that takes more skill. Shields are preventative so that you have to time the skill at the right time to gain the maximum benefit. Shields would also add for better team play mechanics. Example "Templar throws shield on almost dead confessor so that Druid has a chance to heal the confessor up." I would like to see the Templar still do good dmg, but can provide shields to teammates and sin buffs (cause that was a good idea Acecraft) while having a decent amount of mobility to assist teammates. I had an idea that the Knight would be the pull enemies to him and control allowing teammates to ranged DPS or stay away from who the knight was fighting. The Templar in my mind was the person rushing to your assistance to help you deal dmg to your target through mobility and two handed weapon dmg.

 

Maybe I was way off, but I think a Templar that acted as a warrior with shields would be a more exciting AT. Right now I am seeing another boring Paladin. All theory, could be wrong.

 

 I definitely agree that Templar would have been better as a very mobile, good dps for a tank, lots of active dodging for mitigation style class. It's unfortunate that it's not and I wonder why.

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Witcher style only works in a structured combat system that uses root motion.

 

Active dodging as a core defensive mechanic just wont work in this game, unfortunately. Once you go beyond 10 people in a fight the entire dodging and reaction to moves sort of disappears for a melee, especially with the amount of CC thats in the game.

 

Only reason it still works in witcher is because the NPC's are scripted not to all zerg you and attack you all at once constantly, they are scripted to allow you to have time to react, and in alot of case games like these also support some kind of 'time slow' mechanic to help.

 

You would have to completely redesign the entire combat system to really make it work, and i dont think its worth the effort.

 

Passive dodging or a 'negate' ability would be viable. Popup tempo immunity for like 2 seconds or target ally with the immunity. With the right cooldown these are solid support abilities. Not the blind instant cast full heal on a low cooldown non-sense. 

 

TERA's Warrior at launch and up to the patch where they gave them a block was a dodge tank and it was amazing. It required skill to play but in the hands of a competent player it was so cool and very effective. So the idea can definitely work in an MMORPG scenario. And actually now that I think about it, other games have classes that rely on dodging primarily as well. BDO for one and combat there is even faster.

 

I do think this game needs to go back to the TERA style idea of locked animations - which is NOT the same as rooted animations. They just need to speed up the animation a lot from where they were and smooth out the transitions. But overall the current gameplay is too fast and hectic and it really hurts gameplay and combat overall. Not to mention the fact that people can run so quickly and so far in combat makes for some from weird and unfun to even watch fights. 

Edited by Leiloni

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Active dodging as a core defensive mechanic just wont work in this game, unfortunately. Once you go beyond 10 people in a fight the entire dodging and reaction to moves sort of disappears for a melee, especially with the amount of CC thats in the game.

 

I honestly think this is very easy to implement. Basically give the character a roll or dash where they phase out of existence for 1-2 seconds. It allows you to defend against a big oncoming attack and change placement on the battlefield at the same time. When given to a skilled player, they can work magic with an ability like this.

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I honestly think this is very easy to implement. Basically give the character a roll or dash where they phase out of existence for 1-2 seconds. It allows you to defend against a big oncoming attack and change placement on the battlefield at the same time. When given to a skilled player, they can work magic with an ability like this.

Well the 1-2 phase exists already in the form of C ability on most archetypes, the RMB dodge/dash already exists on almost every archetype.

 

So what exactly are you suggesting thats different? Spammable? 

Edited by Vectious

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I definitely agree that Templar would have been better as a very mobile, good dps for a tank, lots of active dodging for mitigation style class. It's unfortunate that it's not and I wonder why.

 

I asked on the last AMA about templar and got this reply from Todd [link]

 

On the templar: we're going to have to re-think some of her mechanics, the original idea was that she would be 'dodge' heavy compared to the others, but as a result of testing we decided to much more liberal in granting dodge to the other archetypes. in general, yes, she is intended to be a gish*.

 

* = A warrior/mage hybrid

 


 

Well the 1-2 phase exists already in the form of C ability on most archetypes, the RMB dodge/dash already exists on almost every archetype.

 

So what exactly are you suggesting thats different? Spammable?

 

i assume suggesting adding a short "iframe" immunity to say a stamina dodge...[like how the c powers make you invuln for ~5 seconds]

 


 

Active dodging as a core defensive mechanic just wont work in this game, unfortunately. Once you go beyond 10 people in a fight the entire dodging and reaction to moves sort of disappears for a melee, especially with the amount of CC thats in the game.

I completely disagree. I already do this on all archetypes I play.

 

Especially ranger spinstep and legio's dodge but even easier with druid dissipate or confessor's zealot rush.

Edited by Tinnis

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Well the 1-2 phase exists already in the form of C ability on most archetypes, the RMB dodge/dash already exists on almost every archetype.

 

So what exactly are you suggesting thats different? Spammable? 

 

I actually dislike that most of the C abilities have this "iframe" immunity. But like Tinnis mentioned above, yes add this to the dodge/dash of the Templar. You could give her another one where she rolls into a holy ball that protects her and her allies from enemy fire. Basically a bubble that allows you to shoot out of it, but not into it. These two suggestions make for far more interesting game play than do dmg and hit button to do AOE heals for your team.

 

You don't have to take my suggestions as absolutes. I just think it isn't hard to implement a dodge tank in a game like this, it has already been done in similar games.

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I actually dislike that most of the C abilities have this "iframe" immunity. But like Tinnis mentioned above, yes add this to the dodge/dash of the Templar. You could give her another one where she rolls into a holy ball that protects her and her allies from enemy fire. Basically a bubble that allows you to shoot out of it, but not into it. These two suggestions make for far more interesting game play than do dmg and hit button to do AOE heals for your team.

 

You don't have to take my suggestions as absolutes. I just think it isn't hard to implement a dodge tank in a game like this, it has already been done in similar games.

 

I have to agree that having iframes on the C abilities right now is just really weird and not at all intuitive. It should be removed and just add a normal dodge to all classes that has an iframe. I'd expect the Druid teleport and other similar skills to also have an iframe.

Edited by Leiloni

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I have to agree that having iframes on the C abilities right now is just really weird and not at all intuitive. It should be removed and just add a normal dodge to all classes that has an iframe. I'd expect the Druid teleport and other similar skills to also have an iframe.

I've been asking for this for how long now?

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I've been asking for this for how long now?

 

Keep asking my friend. The 5 second "iframe" immunity on the C ability for every single class was poorly thought out. The C ability should be something that stands out and defines what that class is. Instead we got lame PBAoEs and a 5 second immunity for the most part.

 

Artcraft Employee: "Hey lets give everyone a 5 second immunity from damage on their C ability because...."

Intern at Artcraft: "...because why?"

Artcraft Employee: "Shut up new guy."

Edited by mastakane

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