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Good points. I think the problem is they were making the locked animations too slow. If they had been considerably faster, it could have worked better. Although I don't mind the current free movement either, but the problem is that many powers and ATs had been designed around the idea of locked combat. So now with free movement they feel very obsolete and inadequate. Also about the fessor movement in that video, that's a current bug / exploit / unintended consequence of physics in the game. It creeped into the game in one of the latest builds, didn't use to exist before. If you dash and jump at the end of the dash animation you'll cover 31m instead of the usual 18m (or similar numbers, Tnnis did the testing). Also legio has zero hard CCs. It's pretty much impossible to catch up to a fessor atm. However I dueled a confessor from my guild with a legio just for fun, and he didn't use that movement exploit, and it becomes somewhat more manageable that way. Still a lot of kiting and running around though, so your point still remains. 

Ive said the same thing. They went overboard on the "locked" animations. Even a small "lock" during the peak of the animation would fell fine.

 

Ive noticed from various games that do "root" motions on combat, that there are three stages of the root motion.

1) the wind up

2) The "peak" - when the attack generally hits

3) The "follow through"

 

What I have found is Generally #3 is the LEAST appealing to have root motion. #2 is generally considered OK, and #1 people dont mind - if done correctly.

Once the attack actually lands, the follow through just feels extremely painful to be stuck in place.

 

So what I would propose is a small adjustment to the #2. The peak animation - when it actually "goes off".

 

Allow for movement during the "wind up" of the animation, as well as after the animation "registers" its hit, but during that "hit" for just a small faction of a time, if you root players in motion, it would actually feel more natural, less floaty, and likely be well received. A GREAT example of where this should be (IMO) is on the LMB attacks. The numbered attacks 1-6, currently have LONG animations and they dont feel all that bad without root motion, I think its the LMB spamming that makes it feel very floaty. Id start adjusting the LMB attacks first with small root motion during just the "peak" of the attack - for likely .2-.3 seconds of the animation, and itll feel much better IMO.

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I think this issue would be solved, if they actually appropriately balanced armor types. Right now, PART of the issue is "squishy" classes are not all that squishy compared to "tank" classes.

 

Leather, mail, plate are all considered "options" that provide different mitigation for different things. IMO, this isnt good. To take that further mail and plate hurt your movement speed.

 

 

What they need to do, is make armor much more dynamic and higher "weight" is higher damage resistance across the board.

 

So Leather should be 10% damage resistance "base" - across the board.

Mail should be in the 20% damage resistance "base" - across the board.

Plate should be in the 40% damage resistance "base" - across the board.

(Meaning with good quality, such as blue or Epic, some of these values could get closer to 50%-100% higher than current %s)

- Nerf HP values by about 20%.

 

What this means, is a player who runs around naked, will feel much more squishy compared to a player in leather. Then, a player in mail will feel tankier, and then a player in plate feels even tankier.

 

REMOVE the movement speed modifier and INSTEAD make an adjuster to sprint/dodge consumption on armor.

 

Leather = 0% change in sprint/consumption.

Mail = Sprint/Dodge consume 50% more stamina.

Plate = Sprint/Dodge consume 100% more stamina.

 

Now, everyone has the same movement speed.

 

 

What this would (hopefully) do, is make it so Confessors who want mobility will be likely rolling around in leather. They would likely still be the "kings" of 1v1 with their kite ability, but with leather armor and reduced HP, they get CCd once and stunned and can likely be killed. 

 

OR if a confessor wants, he/she can put on plate for severely reduced "dodge/sprint" ability, but be MUCH tankier.

 

I think this MIGHT start to balance things out just a bit... Now a Legio wearing Plate could take a SIGNIFICANT beating from a Fessor and it likely might end in a tie...

 

I agree that the armor bonuses are a bit off right now and what you said makes so much more sense. I think it would help balance things a lot more and also make decisions on what to wear more clear while providing useful build options. I would, however like to see bonuses for 2 and 4 piece sets or whatever numbers make sense, so that players who want to mix and match can have some reasons to do so as well.

Edited by Leiloni

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I agree.

 

But its a balance. If they take away the two current burst damage abilities (Myrm C and Confessor #4) then if there is a lego then the likely hood of anyone dying is slim to none.

 

Also, the issue why crying for lego is because his healing is so EASY, statistically every C the lego uses heals for much more then any Myrm C ability. Its a huge AoE that heals everyone.

 

Honestly, if Myrm didint have their root the way it is their C would be alot less scary, they would be so kitable it would be a joke. 

 

 

 

While i agree with most of whats being said. Nerfing is not always the answer, each archetype needs to fit a role(and i dont mean dps/tank/support). I would prefer them making Champion viable before nerfing anything on the Myrm.

 

I do get your point about needing burst to go through legio C, but I think that's mostly an issue with legio stacking. And I don't think the current balance is good at all. It's true you can get more healing with a legio C by hitting multiple allies, however atm combat is all about bursting down single targets fast, not doing AoE fights. If a legio C heals for 15k and a Myrm C hits for 30K then another fessor hits for 20k, you can't keep up with that. Personally I think anything above a 20k crit is way too much. Probably closer to 10-15k max. But then legio healing should NOT stack to avoid the silly situations we see sometimes of someone going from 1hp to full in a second. 


 

 

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Agreed about the need for proper healing and balanced dps, but movement needs to be decreased as well. That Confessor moves around in combat wayyyy too damn fast and alone that's just OP.  In combat movement speed needs to be slowed down and appropriate animation locking needs to be added in that's fast enough to be fun, but gives players a good amount of decision making and balance in combat. And the distance, speed, and frequency with which he can dash away is beyond absurd. The Legio couldn't even get close enough to hit him let alone put a CC or do some damage. I didn't even watch the full clip but what I saw of the Confessor was incredibly OP and from group videos I've seen of other players, it seems movement in general is a problem, both for balance's sake and just for fun's sake. It's not fun to watch a fight move quickly across several football field's worth of land and watch people constantly chasing each other. It's stupid to even look at and I can't imagine how dumb it is to play.

 

Here's a video that illustrates some of my concerns. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cYTyil9KZg&feature=youtu.be#

 

The fight at 15:23 illustrates perfectly my issue with movement right now. Fights are way too far apart, too much movement, too far, too fast, people are nowhere near each other. Players should be working together better as a unit, and fights should be a bit more compact but the movement in combat right now makes that hard to do. Yes there should be a bit of movement during the fights since it's action combat, but this is just to the extreme. You need some middle ground. I can't even finish watching the fight I hate it that much. What is even going on?

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I do get your point about needing burst to go through legio C, but I think that's mostly an issue with legio stacking. And I don't think the current balance is good at all. It's true you can get more healing with a legio C by hitting multiple allies, however atm combat is all about bursting down single targets fast, not doing AoE fights. If a legio C heals for 15k and a Myrm C hits for 30K then another fessor hits for 20k, you can't keep up with that. Personally I think anything above a 20k crit is way too much. Probably closer to 10-15k max. But then legio healing should NOT stack to avoid the silly situations we see sometimes of someone going from 1hp to full in a second. 

As long as a single player cant one-shot another player i think its okay.

 

Two very coordinated person should be able to burst another. And i have seen it happen VERY rarely that they do from full HP.

 

The clutch plays is where its at, the only real times i have ever been caught out with a Myrms C is because i had inappropriately used my cooldowns and put myself in a poor position.

 

Although on the 1400 max damage weapons on a crit i have  seen some single player one shots. But i think this is more because everyone is training offensive combat and getting the percentage increase on max weapons(96% increase) while the armor crafting is like 15-20% damage reduction. (And thats if they use plate, everyone runs around in leather that has junk physical reduction.)

 

 

Its not balancing out, training and crafting wise. This sort of goes against ACE's promise that gear wont be THAT meaningful. But right now, evenly skilled player will be completely out classed based on items. Like, completely. 

 

Thats why Myrms feel SO strong. They never have to worry about defense, if anything the more damage they take the better, they can go 100% offense and stack everything for a brutal effect.

 

With basic weapons a myrm hits for like 10k with his C, garbage!

 

Now take healing, its increased by resource power and in some cases, by weapon damage BUT not as much, the percentage weapon damage scales MUCH better with damage. 

 

Why?

 

Because damage in this type of game is positional, it could be avoided all together. While the healing from a lego is 100% guaranteed, in most cases.

 

I hope they start on both at the same time, worse thing they can do is remove burst but leave healing the way it is. You would see 5 man lego teams. Or 5 man healing templars for that matter.

Edited by Vectious

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Here's a video that illustrates some of my concerns. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cYTyil9KZg&feature=youtu.be#

 

The fight at 15:23 illustrates perfectly my issue with movement right now. Fights are way too far apart, too much movement, too far, too fast, people are nowhere near each other. Players should be working together better as a unit, and fights should be a bit more compact but the movement in combat right now makes that hard to do. Yes there should be a bit of movement during the fights since it's action combat, but this is just to the extreme. You need some middle ground. I can't even finish watching the fight I hate it that much. What is even going on?

I think this was a great idea to start with but they added some abilities that make tight unit fighting impossible. One is the druid's emitter and two is confessor tornados. 

 

But maybe this is just a open world fight issue, right? Once there are objectives to attack and sabotage it may force people to be more contained, otherwise be lured off and have the object they were protecting ruined. 

Edited by Vectious

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I think this was a great idea to start with but they added some abilities that make tight unit fighting impossible. One is the druid's emitter and two is confessor tornados. 

 

But maybe this is just a open world fight issue, right? Once there are objectives to attack and sabotage it may force people to be more contained, otherwise be lured off and have the object they were protecting ruined. 

 

But open world fighting is going to be a huge part of this game forever so it needs to be addressed.

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But open world fighting is going to be a huge part of this game forever so it needs to be addressed.

Im not sure how you do it without encouraging the zerg ball. Sort of diametrically apart. Spread out combat vs zerg ball.

 

Guess the easiest way is to halve all the range of all the abilities. But then that just makes melee so much stronger, shorter distance to kite is dangerous.


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Here's a video that illustrates some of my concerns. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cYTyil9KZg&feature=youtu.be#

 

The fight at 15:23 illustrates perfectly my issue with movement right now. Fights are way too far apart, too much movement, too far, too fast, people are nowhere near each other. Players should be working together better as a unit, and fights should be a bit more compact but the movement in combat right now makes that hard to do. Yes there should be a bit of movement during the fights since it's action combat, but this is just to the extreme. You need some middle ground. I can't even finish watching the fight I hate it that much. What is even going on?

 

I actually really like the pace of combat as it is now, the animation locks were terrible. Why is there so much mobility? Because in this game mobility = survivability. If or when legionnaires are nerfed, this will be even more important. 

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But open world fighting is going to be a huge part of this game forever so it needs to be addressed.

 

If it came down to that then it would just be a zerg fest biggest blob would win. You need to be able to dodge spells and disengage out of combat freely. right now confessor is the only one with fun movement and a couple interesting spells. You can actually run away from a zerg with one. Right now its the only AT that caters to my playstyle and solo players.

 

&  Tornadoes is like the only fun spell in the game because of the physics mechanics. Rest of the ATs are just bland.


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I still can't believe people complain about legio healing values with the amount of burst dps this game has atm. I can understand people want legio healing to be more skillful, and I'm alright with that as long as dps values are decreased significantly. But again, legio heals is NOT balanced for 1v1. This game is NOT going to be based around 1v1. Crying that you can't out-dps a legio in a 1v1 and saying the class is broken because of that is silly. Legio heals and the entire game should be balanced around group fights. In group fights what happens is this: A double myrm C will insta-kill you. A myrm C + a good confessor absolution will inst-kill you. Two confessors hitting good absolutions on you will insta-kill you. With the amount of ridiculously high burst dps this game has atm, a single legio can't even keep a group of 5 healed up by himself. His heals just aren't enough atm. Damage needs to be decreased. We have videos all over the place showing fessors hitting for 25-40k, Myrm C hitting for 35-50k, even ranger arrows hitting for 30-40k. And still people cry legio heals too much... 

 

I think you are biased as you play a Legionaire. Look at that duel and you clearly see a problem. That burst DPS you talk about takes skill to aim and combo CC. Hitting 2 buttons on the legionaire requires no skill. I don't think people are necessarily saying the healing value is too high, its the combination of a high healing value, no skill to use and AOE.

 

You state that legio heals are not balanced for 1 v 1. This argument makes no sense to me. Here is why:

If this legionaire gets a teammate he and his heals become more valuable as each time he hits that button his healing value is now doubling (don't care about the exact math). If the confessor gets a teammate, their damage output remains the same. So if the legionaire is OP in 1 v 1, he becomes even more OP when he gains teammates cause his healing effect increases. 2 Legionaires in a party is just stupid. 2 Legionaires and a Myrm is completely broken.

 

In an earlier build me Wor and another confessor tried to tackle 2 legionaires. This was 1 Knight, 2 Confessors Vs 2 Legionaires. Halfway through the fight we decided as the 3 this is stupid and we can't kill the legionaires and we ran. Broken is broken regardless of how you want to paint the picture.

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If a legio C heals for 15k and a Myrm C hits for 30K then another fessor hits for 20k, you can't keep up with that.

 

You just compared 1 legio C with a Myrm C and a confessor building stacks of sin and then using 4.

 

Legio doesn't have to be close to anyone and press C

 

Vs.

 

Myrm having to be close and pressing C + Confessor landing stacks of sin (with targeting) then use a 4 (with targeting).

 

In what world should the Legio pressing C keep up with 2 characters doing work?

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If it came down to that then it would just be a zerg fest biggest blob would win. You need to be able to dodge spells and disengage out of combat freely. right now confessor is the only one with fun movement and a couple interesting spells. You can actually run away from a zerg with one. Right now its the only AT that caters to my playstyle and solo players.

 

&  Tornadoes is like the only fun spell in the game because of the physics mechanics. Rest of the ATs are just bland.

 

This is true. The 2 combos in the Confessor kit are the most appealing part + Dash. I could care less if any of the other abilities were replaced.

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I do get your point about needing burst to go through legio C, but I think that's mostly an issue with legio stacking. And I don't think the current balance is good at all. It's true you can get more healing with a legio C by hitting multiple allies, however atm combat is all about bursting down single targets fast, not doing AoE fights. If a legio C heals for 15k and a Myrm C hits for 30K then another fessor hits for 20k, you can't keep up with that. Personally I think anything above a 20k crit is way too much. Probably closer to 10-15k max. But then legio healing should NOT stack to avoid the silly situations we see sometimes of someone going from 1hp to full in a second. 

I really think if they did a big balance pass on armor as I suggested above, this would fix some of the big damage issues.

 

With more "DR" though healing becomes even bigger. I fully agree Legios heals shouldnt stack. That should be fixed.

 

The Legio heal should flat out be changed IMO. I think thats been a large part of agreement in this thread. It takes zero skill, zero aim, and AoE. The worst type of heal.

 

I wonder if it would make sense to make the heal something the Legio casts on the ground where he is at, rather than on allies. So as long as you stand in the small area of effect on the ground, it will heal you, if you are running and move outside the AoE, it wont heal. 

 

 

 

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You just compared 1 legio C with a Myrm C and a confessor building stacks of sin and then using 4.

 

Legio doesn't have to be close to anyone and press C

 

Vs.

 

Myrm having to be close and pressing C + Confessor landing stacks of sin (with targeting) then use a 4 (with targeting).

 

In what world should the Legio pressing C keep up with 2 characters doing work?

 

Yes, I agree, it certainly takes a bit more work for those guys to hit (although tbh not a LOT more work, hitboxes and AoE range in CF sometimes feel like they cover the whole map). We just have to keep in mind as well that you're not going to have 1 healer per every dps/tank. Normally (or ideally) you'd have 1 healer for every group of 5. Maybe 2 max. So there's still going to be more guys outputting damage out there than supports healing. 

 

I just hope ACE will have ample time to balance and revamp the combat as needed before soft launch. It feels like there's still a lot of work to be done there. Right now it's early and we need to see the other ATs and systems they implement before we can draw any conclusions on what balance should be like, but their statements of a summer 2017 soft launch sound too optismitic for me. But who knows. 


 

 

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Yes, I agree, it certainly takes a bit more work for those guys to hit (although tbh not a LOT more work, hitboxes and AoE range in CF sometimes feel like they cover the whole map). We just have to keep in mind as well that you're not going to have 1 healer per every dps/tank. Normally (or ideally) you'd have 1 healer for every group of 5. Maybe 2 max. So there's still going to be more guys outputting damage out there than supports healing. 

 

I just hope ACE will have ample time to balance and revamp the combat as needed before soft launch. It feels like there's still a lot of work to be done there. Right now it's early and we need to see the other ATs and systems they implement before we can draw any conclusions on what balance should be like, but their statements of a summer 2017 soft launch sound too optismitic for me. But who knows. 

I would be extremely amazed if anything near the current meta made it in to the soft launch. 

 

However, even though it WILL change, its still valuable to explain in detail, and debate how and in what way it could be better balanced.

 

And as for the launch date, i cant be sure, but i think its the tip of the iceberg with what we see and what ACE actually has. It was a worry of mine with these big world tests that they would focus on adding stuff with the big world test and slow down the overall dev of the game.

 

But since adding things to the test have been extremely slow it points in the direction that they are working on the next big mechanic. I mean, how long did we suffer in the hungerdome until the huge big world change was done? It brought with it harvesting and crafting, they just didint throw us in a big empty world with nothing to do, alot of work was put in to prepare us to test everything.

 

The next biggest hurdle (after vessels) are objectives and CW. After that the overall framework of the game is actually in place, its just adding content to fill in everything to make it a actual game. 


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Yes, I agree, it certainly takes a bit more work for those guys to hit (although tbh not a LOT more work, hitboxes and AoE range in CF sometimes feel like they cover the whole map). We just have to keep in mind as well that you're not going to have 1 healer per every dps/tank. Normally (or ideally) you'd have 1 healer for every group of 5. Maybe 2 max. So there's still going to be more guys outputting damage out there than supports healing. 

 

I just hope ACE will have ample time to balance and revamp the combat as needed before soft launch. It feels like there's still a lot of work to be done there. Right now it's early and we need to see the other ATs and systems they implement before we can draw any conclusions on what balance should be like, but their statements of a summer 2017 soft launch sound too optismitic for me. But who knows. 

 

I agree with what you state above here. The hitboxes seem way to big and I would like skills to be harder to land. I actually started a thread about this a while ago thinking there must be some auto aim, but apparently skills have large spread and big hitboxes to land.

 

Summer 2017 is way too optimistic, I hope I am wrong. I see this game being easily a year out at this point. It needs tons of rebalancing and many core gameplay mechanics have not been introduced at this time.

 

What scares me is the AT that is about to be released seems too similar to the Legionaire which needs a rework in my opinion. I fear they are going in the wrong direction of giant AoEs and easy to land skills.

 

You mentioned above that you don't have 1 healer to every DPS/Tank. I agree with this statement, but the bigger issue is that the Legionaire isn't a "healer". The Legionaire is a healer/dps/tank. It is naturally tanky as it heals itself with every heal making it a heal tank. It also takes a fraction of a second to cast the heals, which don't have to be targeted allowing you to constantly do DPS as well. The Templar sounds like more of the same.

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I agree with what you state above here. The hitboxes seem way to big and I would like skills to be harder to land. I actually started a thread about this a while ago thinking there must be some auto aim, but apparently skills have large spread and big hitboxes to land.

 

Summer 2017 is way too optimistic, I hope I am wrong. I see this game being easily a year out at this point. It needs tons of rebalancing and many core gameplay mechanics have not been introduced at this time.

 

What scares me is the AT that is about to be released seems too similar to the Legionaire which needs a rework in my opinion. I fear they are going in the wrong direction of giant AoEs and easy to land skills.

 

You mentioned above that you don't have 1 healer to every DPS/Tank. I agree with this statement, but the bigger issue is that the Legionaire isn't a "healer". The Legionaire is a healer/dps/tank. It is naturally tanky as it heals itself with every heal making it a heal tank. It also takes a fraction of a second to cast the heals, which don't have to be targeted allowing you to constantly do DPS as well. The Templar sounds like more of the same.

 

I agree except I don't think they need to make aiming harder or get rid of auto aim to make combat good. It's certainly an option when done right, but games like TERA and Black Desert have aim that's easier but still meaningful, using other techniques to make combat fun and skillful. So they have options, they just need to decide what direction to go and do it well. Either way, changes are definitely in order.

 

Agree on the Legio too, though.

Edited by Leiloni

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