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I agree except I don't think they need to make aiming harder or get rid of auto aim to make combat good. It's certainly an option when done right, but games like TERA and Black Desert have aim that's easier but still meaningful

 

I agree with this. I like skill based aiming so that is one way to raise the skill ceiling, but there are others as well. Right now with the current AT and abilities available to us most classes have a low Skill Ceiling. It seems like Druid is currently the highest.

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So here is the question...

What is the solution, and how do we communicate that to the DEVs.

Is it possible to come to some unanimous general consensus balance agreements on things, then create a thread and all go support it?

It seems like by and large everyone is on the same page here.. Legio is the main point of contention with the skillless aoe heal. So what is the general consensus here on how it can be improved.

I would point out, what is "ideal" is often not what is best for making suggestions. In my time in other games, many times you have to meet the DEVs halfway knowing they wont retool a BUNCH of things, but if you make 1-2 small suggestions around 1 ability, they may consider it. 

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So here is the question...

 

What is the solution, and how do we communicate that to the DEVs.

 

Is it possible to come to some unanimous general consensus balance agreements on things, then create a thread and all go support it?

 

It seems like by and large everyone is on the same page here.. Legio is the main point of contention with the skillless aoe heal. So what is the general consensus here on how it can be improved.

 

I would point out, what is "ideal" is often not what is best for making suggestions. In my time in other games, many times you have to meet the DEVs halfway knowing they wont retool a BUNCH of things, but if you make 1-2 small suggestions around 1 ability, they may consider it. 

 

I nominate you for a Liaison between the developers and the community. You state well thought out solutions to problems and seem to listen to many points of view.

 

Myself: stubborn, ignorant and my critiques are often too heated to be listened to.

 

These are issues I would like to see addressed:

  • Less reliance on LMB. Most classes are heavy on the LMB spam, this is basically an auto attack and creates for spammy gameplay.
  • Rework of the C abilities. These seem lazily put together. Too many AOE + "iframe" immunity. The C ability should define the class in my opinion, currently it is failing to do so.
  • Champion.... I don't know where to begin here, from scratch? Actually keep 1, but fix the camera hitching, cool concept but looks lousy currently. Both Champion and Myrm have a whirlwind attack. Myrm looks cool and adds an awesome bleed. Champion looks like he is drunk and needs to go home.
  • Mobility - Long term travel speeds need to be the same. Emphasis on LONG TERM, I don't care if someone has a dash that gives them a fast boost away as long as other classes have a way to catch them through normal travel + skills. The reason I state this is in open world PVP it forces people to choose a certain class. I play confessor right now because most other classes can't keep up. Used to play Knight before they changed the cooldown on 1. He is a great class to play if you like to show up to parties after they are over. I often solo and using a class that can be ran down or ran away from becomes frustrating. Since I will always often play solo or in small groups this will force me to play confessor and ignore many classes.
  • Legio - Add a CC ability and more buffs. This is a support class, not a Tank/Healer/DPS. Maybe plant an AOE banner that stays in the same place and heals allies in the area over time. An incapacitate/sleep seems like a good idea on this class.
  • Templar - Turn it into the dodge tank you promised or at least a Warrior Mage that someone said was the plan during an AMA or something (read this on another thread).
  • Range - Confessors spells barely make it from the keep wall to the ground. This is OK if you give the frostweaver long range spells, but from what I read it sounds like that's a melee caster. If you don't make one "caster" that can sit on keep walls during sieges and rain spells you have failed us.

 

Those are a few ideas that come to my head right away, you can disagree with any of them. Th3gatekeeper encouraged me to give CONSTRUCTIVE feedback like a contributing member of society. I don't know how I feel about this.

Edited by mastakane

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 I have not played the templar yet so I haven't seen this in action, but I don't like the direction we are going with heals.

 

 

No one has seen the Templar heals yet...they could be very weak......time will tell if its OP or not.


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I nominate you for a Liaison between the developers and the community. You state well thought out solutions to problems and seem to listen to many points of view.

 

Myself: stubborn, ignorant and my critiques are often too heated to be listened to.

 

 

Haha thanks for the kind words. I am probably not the best person either. Once I get sold on an idea, I tend to really harp on it and cant move past it for some time... 

Also, I have no special "IN" with the DEVs so it would be pointless. In the last game I played, I DID have a little bit of special "IN",  but we arent there... So we need someone who does have DEV ear to some respect in getting some consensus across. It seems like there are A LOT of really good ideas out here. I have yet to see a DEV team harness the creative input of a community before. Maybe Crowfall will surprise me. Hopefully :)

 

These are issues I would like to see addressed:

  • Less reliance on LMB. Most classes are heavy on the LMB spam, this is basically an auto attack and creates for spammy gameplay.
  • Rework of the C abilities. These seem lazily put together. Too many AOE + "iframe" immunity. The C ability should define the class in my opinion, currently it is failing to do so.
  • Champion.... I don't know where to begin here, from scratch? Actually keep 1, but fix the camera hitching, cool concept but looks lousy currently. Both Champion and Myrm have a whirlwind attack. Myrm looks cool and adds an awesome bleed. Champion looks like he is drunk and needs to go home.
  • Mobility - Long term travel speeds need to be the same. Emphasis on LONG TERM, I don't care if someone has a dash that gives them a fast boost away as long as other classes have a way to catch them through normal travel + skills. The reason I state this is in open world PVP it forces people to choose a certain class. I play confessor right now because most other classes can't keep up. Used to play Knight before they changed the cooldown on 1. He is a great class to play if you like to show up to parties after they are over. I often solo and using a class that can be ran down or ran away from becomes frustrating. Since I will always often play solo or in small groups this will force me to play confessor and ignore many classes.
  • Legio - Add a CC ability and more buffs. This is a support class, not a Tank/Healer/DPS. Maybe plant an AOE banner that stays in the same place and heals allies in the area over time. An incapacitate/sleep seems like a good idea on this class.
  • Templar - Turn it into the dodge tank you promised or at least a Warrior Mage that someone said was the plan during an AMA or something (read this on another thread).
  • Range - Confessors spells barely make it from the keep wall to the ground. This is OK if you give the frostweaver long range spells, but from what I read it sounds like that's a melee caster. If you don't make one "caster" that can sit on keep walls during sieges and rain spells you have failed us.

 

Those are a few ideas that come to my head right away, you can disagree with any of them. Th3gatekeeper encouraged me to give CONSTRUCTIVE feedback like a contributing member of society. I don't know how I feel about this.

So lets have some conversation around this.

 

- Less LMB. I completely agree. I feel like I am using LMB at least 50% of the time. So what is the solution? If you start buffing everyones abilities, everyone deals uber damage and everyone gets nuked. Do we need shorter CDs? I know we have more open ability slots not yet released that COULD end up leading to little to no LMB spam... I 100% agree, I dont know if this is a solution we can come up with though... I can say that I do think SOME root motion should be added to LMB. Maybe that would be enough to stop the LMB spam. Not a huge one. Not going back to previous root motion, but just for a small .3 second window when the attack is actually hitting a target. That should be enough.

 

- Rework of C. Love it. Which ones. How. What would you do exactly. I can tell you for Myrm I would LOVE to see damage reduced a little. REMOVE the ability to use it DURING CC effects and I think it would be golden. 

 

- Champion. This class is in a bit of a mess right now. Something I constantly see pop up on threads about Champion is to give them back the Stone Form. I have yet to play this class because, honestly, I was told it was garbage. So I didnt even bother. Wouldnt know where to start. It did surprise me at how squishy they are to kill and how little damage (in comparison) they deal. I would have thought for their level of squishy, they would have been DPS hoses, more like a Fessor, but instead its like a Myrm, without his "6" ability which would be a dead Myrm, which is exactly what a Champion is... Im pretty sure the most used ability in the Champion arsenal is pressing "respawn".

 

- Mobility. I agree here. I was a little surprised to find base rune speeds vary so much in relation to the RACE. I think they can do this fine. I also think my suggestion about armor rebalance would help this too. Like you said, SHORT bursts (aka Sprint/Dodge) is where some classes can excel. But LONG distance, players should move similar speeds. I think NOT affecting base run speed by armor type would be a huge benefit here and I think that armor merely impacts the amount of stamina consumed when sprinting/dodging this would mean that everyone runs ~ the same speed. I would suggest making everyone have the same base speed frankly, with maybe the 1 exception being the Legio since he is part horse... however if they are going to do this, Id ALMOST just rather see his base run speed even with other characters, but merely remove the ability for him to mount and instead he can enter some "travel" run speed form in which he runs as fast as mounts. I dont know their plans for mounts, this was just an idea I had. He doesnt need one, but it takes up an action bar spot or something.... 

 

- Legio. I agree. He is the ultimate hybrid. With his run speed bonus, his DPS, his healing its like an all in 1. FIRST would be to make his heal NOT STACK. Second, I would like to see his Heal be a cast on the ground in an AoE circle - rather than a 1 time hit that then applies a HOT. So it would require the Legio (and allies) to stand inside the circle the entire time to get healed. Makes this more active and require strategy on when to use it. Maybe increase the circumference a little to compensate. Id like to see some type of "followup" to his abilities. He has just 1 combo move. He plays VERY boring. I forget the names of the abilities as I write this, but he has his little "staff slam" that knocks enemies backwards. This (IMO) should apply a small root to enemies. OR, give a followup ability after slamming the ground to knock back, he does it again and anyone within the second one gets snared for X seconds. Id also like to see his "anti-snare, run speed buff, get another chain in the combo as well. Not sure the effect. But Maybe it could be an offensive attack he could use right after using that buff (I think its something herd? Thunderous Herd maybe?) Just seems like MORE combos, would be better, and a nerf to his heal as I suggested.

 

Templar - I am rather sad to see this be a "heal focused" tank. I too, would rather have something else. Maybe a "barrier" tank instead. I dont know how an evasion based tank fits the Templar honestly. To me, the Templar is a holy warrior that should have some sort of very mild HoT, but focus is on barriers and I OFCOURSE want the ability to throw my weapon and stun enemies (Hammerdin anyone?!) Seems like more could have been done here.

 

Range - I agree 100%. When I think of GREAT "keep sieges" I think of Warhammer. You have the ranged DPS raining down fire and arrows all over the horde of enemies! I think you do have to be careful here, because without root motion, when you increase range a ton, now you have a BIG BIG problem in PVP. We are already seeing the issues of fessors nuking players with stacks built up. Can you imagine if they had 25-50% more range? I think what MIGHT be a good step is to merely increase the range of basic attacks as a start. So their arsenal would be limited in what they can use during keep sieges. 

 

 

I do want to get some consensus on healing though. This was the purpose of the thread. I am NOT a healer, I will say that first are foremost... However I did play a resto shammy back in Vanilla and BC wow days for raids. But it was VERY boring... its just what we needed, so I did it. You all know the only "fun" there was seeing how low you could let your Main Tank go and still keep him up..... 

 

I want more out of healing in Crowfall. I like the Druid mechanic with the orbs, I wish other healing would do more....

 

Id like to see proposals listed as the most "fun" TYPES of healing you have seen in games. I have my 2 things for "tanking" That I have loved in games I will write later, but this post is already a wall - o - text. :)

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Id like to see proposals listed as the most "fun" TYPES of healing you have seen in games. I have my 2 things for "tanking" That I have loved in games I will write later, but this post is already a wall - o - text. :)

 

I've talked plenty in this thread already but TERA's Mystic and Priest had some great design ideas for action combat healing that would work well with Crowfall. They were both so much fun. Some Mystic ideas we're already seeing with the Druid Orbs, but there's so much more inspiration ACE can take from things they did in that game.

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Reduce burst healing.

 

Reduce CC timers (or create a new immunity scheme)

 

Allow plate armor to drastically reduce Stun/KD times. (Perhaps tie it to armor class?)

 

Reduce the number of Stun/KD abilities.

 

Increase damage across the board.

 

 

As for targeted healing, I'm all for the Legio having to use banners to create healing/buffing fields. His "shout" abilities should be group CC and debuff removal. The druid seems to be right in line with what the community wants in terms of "skill based healing".

 

I still think that each archetype should get some sort of built in "bind wounds" ability. It would be a channeled heal which must be performed with weapons sheathed, making the user vulnerable to the dizzy/down effect. This way, if you successfully disengage from a fight, or emerge victorious from a very close battle, you can get back up to full health easily. Maybe it could just be a buff that increases out of combat health regen...the point is to give players (especially solo players) a way to reset their HP instead of lingering at low health because they couldn't find a campfire. It doesn't detract from the support role at all (ala GW2), it's just a quality of life improvement.


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As for targeted healing, I'm all for the Legio having to use banners to create healing/buffing fields. His "shout" abilities should be group CC and debuff removal. The druid seems to be right in line with what the community wants in terms of "skill based healing".

 

I still think that each archetype should get some sort of built in "bind wounds" ability. It would be a channeled heal which must be performed with weapons sheathed, making the user vulnerable to the dizzy/down effect. This way, if you successfully disengage from a fight, or emerge victorious from a very close battle, you can get back up to full health easily. Maybe it could just be a buff that increases out of combat health regen...the point is to give players (especially solo players) a way to reset their HP instead of lingering at low health because they couldn't find a campfire. It doesn't detract from the support role at all (ala GW2), it's just a quality of life improvement.

Love these.

 

- Legio throws Banner into the ground to create a "healing ring". Stand in it and get ticks.

- Giving each AT some OUT OF COMBAT "bind wounds" on a CD might be a good idea. Give it a 5min CD or something, should be fair.

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With regards the yin yang of "burst healing" versus "burst damage" = "balancing each other out"

 

everyone is forgetting that Legio's rallying cry spam is also signficantly adding to the burst damage problem as well...

 

i'm sure many don't even know it actually buffs your whole group to have +15% crit chance for 20 seconds after cast...

 

(where most base crit chances are about 5%...)

 

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Edited by Tinnis

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Reduce burst healing.

 

Reduce CC timers (or create a new immunity scheme)

 

Allow plate armor to drastically reduce Stun/KD times. (Perhaps tie it to armor class?)

 

Reduce the number of Stun/KD abilities.

 

Great ideas. I didn't mention CC, but it is an issue. With 2 confessors you can keep a single player permanently CCed until they die.

 

The CC is reminding me of the knockdown shot in SWG. It is OP and required everyone to use it in PVP, Crowfall is running into this issue.

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In terms of more skillful healing, we already know that ACE has the ability to "lock on" to a target with a heal after it's been aimed properly because we have the channeled heals that do that. So I'd suggest they have some TERA style lock on heals - single target or targeted AoE, or anything else they can come up with.

 

It would be a better way to do skill based healing than what we've seen, but it's also more mobile because you take a second or two to lock on and cast and then you can continue moving. So it promotes more of a stop and start movement pattern, which is a lot better than standing still to channel something, and its also better than massive AoEs.

 

It's also worth pointing out that the lock on heals in TERA were loved by a lot of players and part of why so many loved the healing in that game. So if you can make healers in this game as fun as there, you'll not only attract more players to CF in general, but you'll have more people rolling healers which is good for everyone. If Korean MMO's can teach us something, it's how to attract a lot of players to the healer classes (Aion did that well also).

Edited by Leiloni

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In terms of more skillful healing, we already know that ACE has the ability to "lock on" to a target with a heal after it's been aimed properly because we have the channeled heals that do that. So I'd suggest they have some TERA style lock on heals - single target or targeted AoE, or anything else they can come up with.

 

It would be a better way to do skill based healing than what we've seen, but it's also more mobile because you take a second or two to lock on and cast and then you can continue moving. So it promotes more of a stop and start movement pattern, which is a lot better than standing still to channel something, and its also better than massive AoEs.

 

It's also worth pointing out that the lock on heals in TERA were loved by a lot of players and part of why so many loved the healing in that game. So if you can make healers in this game as fun as there, you'll not only attract more players to CF in general, but you'll have more people rolling healers which is good for everyone. If Korean MMO's can teach us something, it's how to attract a lot of players to the healer classes (Aion did that well also).

Great idea.

 

I think they could do a world more with channeled heals/buffs.

 

What about a channeled damage reduction? 

 

I think they have some base stuff to work with, i mean the druid can give a damage barrier thats instant AoE cast.

 

I think they should turn down the cheese and try to add some dynamic spins on stuff.


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Great idea.

 

I think they could do a world more with channeled heals/buffs.

 

What about a channeled damage reduction? 

 

I think they have some base stuff to work with, i mean the druid can give a damage barrier thats instant AoE cast.

 

I think they should turn down the cheese and try to add some dynamic spins on stuff.

 

I'm not crazy about channeled stuff only because it prevents the healer from moving while they're doing it. A skill that has a cast time is better. But buffs and barriers I'm always a fan of.

Edited by Leiloni

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Great idea.

 

I think they could do a world more with channeled heals/buffs.

 

What about a channeled damage reduction? 

 

I think they have some base stuff to work with, i mean the druid can give a damage barrier thats instant AoE cast.

 

I think they should turn down the cheese and try to add some dynamic spins on stuff.

 

I too would like to see more ways to support your team that isn't healing or damage. It's always bothered me that support is automatically assumed to be a healer when a support role could be a lot more interesting if some actual creativity was put into it. This is why I was so crushed and disappointed when the Templar was announced to be a healer. I chose tank so I could support my team in a different way other than healing. Please give us something else to work with and change the paradigm for real this time.

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I'm not crazy about channeled stuff only because it prevents the healer from moving while they're doing it. A skill that has a cast time is better.

Yeah thats the main reason i like it. It prevents them from doing -anything-. 

 

And its aimed.

 

Could be AoE. A reason to target and interrupt a druid.

 

Thats what we started seeing in some small scrims, with a druid buffing a Myrm, you cant burst kill a  myrm and if he gets on anyone they are dead, the priority was interrupt and put pressure on that druid.

 

It made a druid important with out ROFLbuffing their healing. More stuff like this is key, its team work. Not fire and forget buff/heals.

Edited by Vectious

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I'm not crazy about channeled stuff only because it prevents the healer from moving while they're doing it. A skill that has a cast time is better. But buffs and barriers I'm always a fan of.

 

Perhaps they could make powers that can be channeled while moving?


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Yeah thats the main reason i like it. It prevents them from doing -anything-. 

 

And its aimed.

 

Could be AoE. A reason to target and interrupt a druid.

 

Thats what we started seeing in some small scrims, with a druid buffing a Myrm, you cant burst kill a  myrm and if he gets on anyone they are dead, the priority was interrupt and put pressure on that druid.

 

It made a druid important with out ROFLbuffing their healing. More stuff like this is key, its team work. Not fire and forget buff/heals.

 

You can interrupt and pressure a healer without forcing them to stand still, though. 

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You can interrupt and pressure a healer without forcing them to stand still, though. 

Very true. 

 

Letting them move while challenging opens up the issue of the fights being so spread out. I thought you had mentioned before you disliked this?

 

If the channel rooted in place and had a range restriction then it closes the battle field a bit. Specifically if it was Area effect channel, right?

 

But either way, it may be better then what we got!


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